Hi

Well, I tried getting the ins and outs of camshafts, rockers, rolling or not, and pushrods, rolling, hydraulic and normal kind.

And now I really know how my grandma must feel when I talk about computers. I haven't got the slightest clue.

I'd be grateful if someone could explain a few thigns or point me to locations that could help poor little me along the way.

First, I have a 350 SBC from 69. It should go into my 82 TA. What I'd like to see is an engine with like 300 or so hp that has very good driving behaviour and some real kick when you step on the gas in the lower RPM range. I don't care about top speed. Can't drive much faster than 120 km/h anyway. Well, I do care about top speed if it is below like 140 .

Now I've been rading about cams and the stuff that goes around it (yeah, I know that sounded stupid ). And there's a lot of stuff I still can't get into context.

For instance, duration. If I understood what I read correctly, duration means the time the valve is open. Which I wouldn't want to have open too long because that kills low end torque. But what numbers are normal? Or let's say what numbers should I be looking for for my situation?

Lift: Well, unless I'm mistaken, we're talking about how high the pushrod is moved by the cam. Am I correct when I assume that the rocker ratio then multiplies this to get the actual movement of the valve? Again, what numbers am I looking for (it's unbelievable how many sites and books tell you to watch it... yeah, but watch for what they seldomly say...).

Furthermore, are roller rockers and roller lifters usually better than standard ones? And when do you use Hydraulic lifters. Heck, what makes hydraulic lifters different in the first place?

I know, a lot of questions... If there's a site out there, like, "Engine building for noobs" I'd be glad to get the link.

Thanks.

 

You've gotta read my signature. I wrote an article on camshafts that's right up your alley, and I know it answers all those questions you've got. Give that a read and let me know if you've got any more questions. Everything you've said in your post is right (lift, rocker multiplies lift, etc).

Roller rockers are a nice addon, and don't require anything else really.

Roller lifters match a roller cam. Cams come in 4 flavors;

Hydraulic flat tappet -best choice for you
solid flat tappet -alternate choice for you

hydraulic roller - very expensive alternative for you, I wouldn't recommend it
solid roller - full on race, expensive upgrade for you, again, I don't think its for you.

 

A 300hp 350 is very easy to do...

A set of half decent GM cast iron heads, possibly even vortecs you wont have to go too crazy here. A mild Cam, intake, carb and headers and you have yourself an easy 300+hp and you wouldnt have to worry one bit about street manners.


Ill second Sonix, since you dont want to go too crazy in the HP department a regular old hydraulic flat tappet cam/lifter setup is your best way to go.

 

Sonix: I don't see the signatures so I never knew of that. I'll check it out. Thanks!

84z28350: The heads are actually the biggest problem. Shipping overseas on such heavy objects are what I'd like to circumvent. Although, if my actual heads are so crappy that all other investment will be wasted because of them then I'll opf course do it anyway.

 

Sonix: I've read your article and have come to a few conclusions. I'd be glad if you could give me your opinion on them:

Rockers: Before I know whether I want 1.6 rockers I'd need to know how much clearance I have. But in any case, roller rockers are a good idea.
Valve lift: Basically the same question as above.
Advertised Duration: Ignore it, 'cause without a lot of experience those numbers don't tell you crap. Excuse the language .
Duration at .05 inch lift: That's what's of interest. I have come to the conclusion that I should want my cam to be around 210 to 220. A little more high end power than the stock cam yet I'm not wasting too much power in the lower RPMs.
RPMs: Well, this number isn't too good a measurement since it's more or less an assumption, yet I'd say if it says something between 1000 to 1500 to wherever I should be good.
Roller cam: Well. If I have the money this should be a good thing. But since I have a non roller block this is going to be expensive. I'd need a retrofitted roller cam and retrofitted roller lifters which cost arseloads of money compared to "standard" material. But it would be a good idea because for one the engine runs smoother and if I'm not mistaken you get a tad more power out of them. Furthermore I need to figure out what length of pushrods I'd need because the lifters will probably not be the same length as pushrods from a flat tappet camshaft.

So... how far off am I?

 

You're right on the money there.

I'd really avoid the roller cam stuff, you do gain power and reliability, but boy, its so expensive, it's kinda hard to justify. Price it out though, and decide for yourself.

Cam ($120) lifters ($60) ~$200 USD. Add shipping etc

Cam ($260), lifters ($450), pushrods ($30), timing cover/cam button ($80).... etc. Not my area of expertise, so I won't go into pricing it out for ya, but you see the difference.

I think there's more bang/buck that you can get with other things to put in your motor.

Rockers - 1.6 is generally better than 1.5. Lift makes power. I'd use 1.6 rollers. I used proform/summit brand ones, $99 for the set of 16 when I got them.

210-220 duration @.050 is fine, that's not overly big though. You can use your stock stall speed in there. I think 218/224, the comp xe262h would work just great for you.

I wouldn't worry about having too much lift when picking cam and rockers. I'd shoot for the sky, then make the corrections for having too much lift. Usually this involves .050" offset locks, or machining down the guide boss, which is pretty cheap and a standard procedure. If you've got a drill press you can buy the tool and do it yourself, or use your angle grinder and a steady hand.

Your stock pushrods should be fine, but you can check them for a "witness mark", that's a free check, so you don't need to buy a pushrod length checker. If you keep a flat tappet, 90% chance you can use your normal pushrods, if you go to roller, you'll need new ones. No biggie, they're only ~$40 or so.

Do post up the cylinder head casting number. We can tell you if they're worth using.

 

Ok, i was not aware you are across the pond. I guess that kind of makes it hard to find a whole wack of chebbys in the junkyard then!

But keep in mind, alot of what makes the power on a motor is the head, aside from that the cam will make or break a motor too.


Do you have the casting number that is on the heads that are already on your 69 block? Lets hope their a half decent head...

 

Okay, as soon as I get the guy on the phone I'll see that I get those numbers. Are they the only numbers on the heads or do I have to know where to look?

And I guess 210 to 220 is quite conservative. Might as well use the old one, right? That's a whole new question anyway. According to my mechanic this engine is supposed to have made like 300 hp as it is. Is there a way to find out what kind of cam is in there now?

Is there a way to put in numbers what kind of power you usually gain/lose with a bigger cam?

84z28350: Well, we do have some junkyards that have US cars. Problem is they usually go by make, model and year to find parts. For Japanese and European cars this is great and all but try to find a TH200-4R tranny. That sucker has been used in about 8 to 10 years in like 4 makes and god knows how many models. It's nigh impossible to find stuff by phone. You actually have to look for yourself because they don't know nothing. And that's me saying that.

 

The head casting numbers will be cast into the top of the head somewhere between a set of valves.

Heres an example of a casting number

3927186 ---- 69-70...302/350......Camel hump,64cc chambers,accessory holes

But the heads on that motor may be a few numbers longer or shorter if they have been swapped out before.

By taking a quick glimps over all the casting numbers for the late 60s heads, if they are originals it should start with 392 - 394

 

The number on the heads is 3890462 (K256... not sure whether that's part of the number).

 

Hmmm... I've been looking around and some aluminium heads would look spanking, I think . Perhaps they'd even be a little less heavy *g*.

Do I have to match some parts to new heads? Like manifold or carburetor?

 

3890462....66-67...302/327/350..Camel hump,no accessory holes,64cc chamber

Probably not the best head, but the camel humps were kind of a big deal back in the day.

they shouldnt be too bad, probably a PITA because of no ACCY mounts...



If your looking into new heads their is alot you have to lookout for, Chamber size, runner size, port shape, valve size, vortec/non vortec (this is were intake choice is critical as they are 100% non interchangable) ect, ect...

 

I think I will be looking into new heads because the engine shop finds so much work to do on my heads that it wants a thousand bucks to do it. And for a thousand bucks I think I can get a set of heads over the big pond. Question is, can I get a good set .

So if I bought vortec heads I'd need a new manifold too right? Or does it go so far that I need another carburetor too?

How do I go about determining the other factors I need?

 

hmm, I didn't get any emails about this thread, weird. Well I was out snowshoeing, so i've been away from this electric gizmo for a while.

The nice thing is, that's a fairly desireable head to a collector. Got a digital camera? Get a schwack of pictures (maybe clean 'em up with some degreaser first), and sell it on ebay. As a numbers matching camel hump heads. Some guy restoring his '69 Camaro or the like will jump on it like white on rice. You'll get a decent mitt of cash out of the deal, and get 'em off your heads. I can see why it'd take close to a grand to get those working for you.

Yea, vortecs are great as far as value goes. Good power, good price. Yes, you would need a new intake manifold, but I think you'll be wanting a new one anyway. What carb do you have now? The one off the '82 305, or the one off the '69 350? (both, one or the other ?)

I think you can reuse your quadrajet (carb from the '82 305). Assuming this is a "made for export" car, then it *should* be the non computer controlled carb. Just fine to re-use.

I *think* you can get vortec heads, and a vortec RPM (high rise dual plane design) intake manifold with a q-jet bolt pattern. Perhaps someone can back me up on this one?

Price it out from scoggin dickey or summit, heads and intake. Then make sure you can get the carb to fit it.

Other choices would be entry level heads, AL or iron. For your usage I really think iron would be fine. (You'd also save on shipping with AL though )

I could dig through a recent car craft mag here, or that "how to- high performance small block chevys on a budget" by Vizard (hint hint, good book)
I think they did a few trials using some entry level heads, such as darts. I want to say Iron Eagle series. Look up prices and compare, remember though, you won't HAVE TO buy a new intake if you don't go the vortec route, but boy you'd be shooting yourself in the foot if you don't. And if you buy a new intake, the vortec or non is virtually the same price.

Not sure what's in the shortblock yet, but here are some #'s to shoot for;

9-9.5:1 static compression ratio, if iron heads. Add .5 of a ratio if you use AL.
This will help you choose chamber size, and piston dish size, etc.

160-180 intake port size, in cc's. Since you want 300HP, and want to drive it often without it being a PITA to drive, that intake port size will make it drive like stock. (stock heads are around this range, in the low end. However aftermarket heads can get a lot more flow out of those 170ish cc's than a stock head, generally.)

And your cam thoughts before (210-220 intake duration @.050") are right on.

I'm picturing in my mind - 350 +.030", flat tops, lightly decked block, 64ish cc heads-vortec, performer RPM vortec manifold, q-jet, xe262h cam. That's a pretty mild setup, but when tuned up right, should be able to make 320HP at the crank without you having to resort to black magic or voodoo.

Good luck (oh, if you want I can list what parts you should pick in what order, as far as, what i'd do, at least. Let me know).

 

Sonix: You want me to fall in love with you, right? That's the kind of info I've been searching for so long ^^. I have the book now, by the way, but perhaps it's my lack of knowledge about technical English or the book just assumes you've already taken apart a block before and got it together, working. I find it a tad confusing, I have to admit. But between the book and this board I actually feel I can do this.

I have both the carbs, though I'm asking myself whether to put all the work of cleaning them in (and how do I know they are working? Again, this is Switzerland, finding someone doing carburetors will be bad, seriously) or just buy a new one? As far as I can see they cost like 300 bucks.

So we bore the block to 0.30 over, get fitting flattop (hypereutectic?) pistons, what do you mean by decked?

Does something speek against a set? Like http://store.summitracing.com/partde...5&autoview=sku
I'll have to find out what cam is in that package. But do you think it's better to get individual parts or a set that is supposed to fit together?

 

Did you read the note at the bottom of the kit's parts list?

Notes:
Designed for engines with retro-fit hydraulic roller cams. Lifters not included.

 

No, it was just an example I picked out. Sorry, it wasn't meant as an example of what I want to buy but an example about what kind of set I am talking about.

 

Yea, a kit would work just fine, but they will be missing a few things that you'll need in your rebuild, I guarantee it - also, it may not be exactly suited to you. ie, edelbrocks kits usually contain edelbrock cams, and they are notoriously bad. Some of the summit/holley/lunati kits seem pretty good. But remember, price them out vs picking the parts seperate, sometimes its not that great of a deal.

Yea, the Vizard "how to rebuild your SBC" book will start to make sense as you rebuild it, I remembered feeling confused, but as I started going, it started making sense.

Decked means to have them cut some material off the top of the block, where the heads mount. If the engine has been overheated, it's probably a bit wavy, so it makes it hard to mount a head gasket, or else it'll leak. So you deck it until its flat. Also, if you deck it, you can run a thicker head gasket (the more common type). If you don't deck it, and run the thicker head gasket, you now have more volume in the combustion area right? Lower compression ratio, and higher quench, bad and bad.

Well, you need your machinist to measure your engine, and see if .030" pistons will fit. I remember your machinist being confused as to what bore size was wanted, so remember, with your 350, 4.000" is stock. You can use any bore size in increments of .010" above that. So if your machinist measures the bores, and finds the max bore size in all 8 cylinders as being 4.022" then you want to buy 4.030" pistons (.030" overbore). If you see 4.018", you might be able to use 4.020" but remember .030" and .060" pistons are most common, so that means cheaper and more selection. If you can, round to .030".

Most things that we take for granted here, you can't have. ie, I can tell my machinist to get my 350 SBC ready to go, and he'll know exactly what to do, and have the parts lying around. If your machinist doesn't do SBC's regularly, he won't have cam bearings and freeze plugs lying around, so you better remember to buy some. Also he may or may not have a tool to install your cam bearings for you, again, you can buy it if you can't get him to do it for you.

Carb - your call on this one. If you feel comfortable buying a new carb, price wise, then sure, go for a 750cfm holley double pumper, the most common carb used in hotrodding. I am a fan of the q-jet, and I really think you'd be able to get your 1982 q-jet working fine for you, but you'd be rebuilding it yourself. Not a big deal, but another thing to learn about, and tinker with. Also it complicates things such that you need to make sure your intake manifold has the bolt pattern on it. If it costs more money, or hassle to get the intake with the q-jet bolt pattern, then it would to buy a square bore carb (holley, or other), then go for the holley.

 

The bore is between 0.21 and 0.26 so 0.30 will be what I need.

Quite honestly, I want to do as much myself as I can. Well, for one it's what I want to do. I'm not building the car to just have the car. I'm doing it to have a car that I built the way it is by my own hands.

As soon as I find a TH200-4R I probably will have to try to overhault that one as well. Just because people here don't know how to do it in the first place or want too much money for it.

Let me get one thing out of the way: the q-jet carb will ned a q-jet compliant manifold right? The manifold that is on there is no good though. So Either I buy a normal manifold and a normal carb or a new manifold without carb that is q-jet compliant. Right?

Decking is, as far as I gather, 'planfräsen'. It's about the only thing I want that guy to do aside from getting the bore to fit .030 pistons. I will buy everything that is needed beforehand. The bearings should stay stock if I don't do anything to the crankshaft, right? At least concerning size?

Is there a complete list of things I'll have to remember? Because block and crank aside I'll be needing just about everything.

Oh by the way... the beraing tool costs about 50 bucks at Summit's as far as I've seen. Such a tool here costs several hundred to a thousand bucks easy. Just to give you an idea of what I'm dealing with here .

 

ok, .030" sounds right. Buy the pistons, then get your machinist to bore the block. He'll rough bore it on the machine to .029" or something, then use a honing tool to hone the bore to a specific clearance over the piston. So he'll mark a piston "#1", measure its widest point (they're barrel like, slightly), then he'll hone the #1 cylinder to .003" oversize or so. Again, once you have the pistons in hand, it'll probably have a spec sheet in the box, and say "fit the pistons with .003" clearance" or something along those lines.

Yep, that's right.

The crankshaft - in the vizard book it'll probably mention how to check if it's still good. Run a finger over it, look for scratches, etc. Get your machinist to measure it, see if the bearing surfaces are perfectly round or ovalized. Chances are it's slightly ovalized, and will need to be "turned" (machined). It may need .010" turning, if that costs you $200, a crank from summit is ~$175, (plus shipping, bla bla). Just compare it, mine cost $120 to turn, or $230 for the new crank, so I turned the old one.

i think I got the summit cam bearing tool, and the size was off, so I had to return it, and get the proform one or something. Maybe it was the other way around, either way it took 4 weeks and $50 in shipping to straighten things out, careful.

You'll probably re-use your rods. If they aren't DESTROYED, then just get ARP rod bolts and use those. Or get new ones for ~$175 or so.

 

The crankshaft is supposed to be in great shape according to them.

Okay I'll try to compile a list of things I think I need. If you don't mind looking over afterwards I'd be grateful. But probably not today. It's a new year soon .

 

you can buy either a spreadbore or squarebore type intake, it doesnt really matter as you can use an adapter on a squarebore intake to use your spreadbore Q-Jet.

But if you dont intend on switching the carb up to a squarebore anytime in the near future just get a spreadbore intake. That will save the use of the adapter and save critical hood clearance!

 

I have now compiled a wishlist on Summit. Comments are welcome

http://www.summitracing.com/mygarage...-543C5303AD75}

 

Comments? Yea, i've got one or two


-the cam kit comes with a double, non-roller timing chain. I'm not sure its worth fretting about, but i'd try and get a roller set. The comp cams double roller is $32. Looks like a good cam kit choice

-you spec'd $200 crane 1.6 aluminum full body rockers. I wouldn't use Aluminum rocker arms, they fatigue. I'd choose the CCA-1416-16, or the $89 summit set, if they weren't out of stock.

-you picked the performer intake, (polished), I wouldn't bother with that, it's basically what you've got now, just clean and polished. I'd go to the performer RPM, EDL-7101 for plain (you can leave it, or spray paint it yourself if you like), or the polished or endurashine version. The air-gap variety is nice, but i'd be worried about hood clearance, so maybe leave that option out.

-ah, you've got yourself set up there with one cylinder head. Is that going to be left or right? Those are sold "each", that's something you've got to be careful about when selecting heads, some are sold as a pair, some are "each". So you'll need two. Meaning $1000. Also, these are "assembled", rather than "bare". Another bit of symantics for you, assembled means you're getting:
the cylinder head
valves
springs
retainers
locks
valve seals
guideplates

Usually, I mean there might be exceptions where the heads don't have the guideplates or something.
"bare" heads are pretty self explanatory.

I don't have any direct experience with these heads, so I shouldn't comment, but 2.02 valves, 1.45" single spring, 170cc intake port... I'm not sure, I would like to see a flow bench sheet on the heads, before I dropped $1000 on them. I think it's a little low on value there.

Oh yea and your cam kit has springs and retainers etc. So you've got some overlap on parts there.

question - do you want to buy the heads bare and assemble them yourself, or buy them assembled?

-You've got a $150 Aluminum Edelbrock long nose water pump. You sure you want/need that? It'd be more of a dress up part than anything else, a normal stock replacement water pump like GMB-130-1250 would work fine (or you could get one locally perhaps?) Or SUM-311006 or SUM-311016 if you wanted dressy. I don't think you'll need a high volume pump. Oh, these are all clockwise pumps, so i'm assuming your sticking with V-belts?

-That gasket set looks good. Also you'll need a freeze plug set like - SLP-381-8007

-You've got Edelbrock $89 head bolts which are ARP ones sold by Edelbrock. I'd just get them straight from ARP for $59 instead - ARP-134-3601. I'd get the main cap bolts as well, should be ARP-134-5001 (large journal 2 bolt main small block chevy). Heck, i'd buy a "bolt kit" as well. Once you spend 4 hours cleaning the crud off the threads of all the bolts you've got, and trying to track down all the ones you've lost, you'll wish you just bought new shiny ones. I know you can get a set by summit that covers most of the SBC bolt locations, except for the critical ones like head bolts, main bolts and rod caps. So this will include intake manifold, oil pan, timing chain cover, etc.

- 2 piece timing cover kit - good idea. But it says "does not fit 8" dampners" and you probably have, or will have, an 8". I just started looking for a different one, but kept running myself into corners. And i'm losing my patience because I want to go get something to eat here, so i'll leave this to you, find a timing cover that WILL work with a roller timing chain, is 2 piece (not really needed, but nice), works with 8" dampers, and has a timing pointer available. A "normal" $4 pointer should be fine, not a $50 aluminum sharp point style one
For comparisons sake, I bought a summit kit, SUM-G3200-K, 1 piece cover.

-That piston kit sounds just perfect.

-I wouldn't bother with the high volume pump, it just drags off a bit of power. There are tons of threads on this forum arguing why people should just use standard volume pumps unless running 7000RPM continously sorta thing. I'd look at SES-3-60-08-005. That's a neat kit, didn't know you could get that, comes with a driveshaft, pickup tack-welded on. Cool.

-You've specc'ed out a HLY-0-80508S carb, Holley 4160 vacuum secondary carb. I am in no position to give carb suggestions, so I won't. Usually a double pumper is recommended though, so i'll leave it at that.


ok, now for everything else you've left out, didn't think of, etc. I'll rattle off some things and you can say if you've already got it, need it, etc.

-Dampner
-connecting rods
-Pushrods
-distributor
-crankshaft dampner bolt (probably won't be in bolt kit, maybe though..)
-headers? y-pipe?
-alternator? bracket?
-power steering pump? bracket?
-motor mounts? tranny mount?
-flywheel?
-valve covers? Nice shiny new ones for $20?
-Oil pan? Nice orange or chrome one, won't leak and looks great, $30 or so.
-dipstick and tube?
-PCV breather? I used a K&N exposed filter with chrome top. Looks better than the chrome mushroom style ones that don't have any exposed filter, IMHO.
-assembly grease


I'm just trying to brainstorm anything whatsoever that you will need to buy to put the engine into the car and drive it down the street. Chances are summit will have it, and sells it cheaper than you can get it locally, so you might as well put it on the order now...

Tools:

-crankshaft turning socket. (nice to have, especially when setting valve lash)
-cam bearing install tool
-feeler gauge
-rod bolt boots

I'm not sure what you have, so I won't bother going into this in any depth...


Whew, ok, that's all i've got for now, there's probably a few things missing still though.

 

- Cam Kit: Okay, so I'll add the cam and timing chain seperately. To a question further down, no it was a mistake. I wanted to select the kit with only lifters, timing chain and cam .

-changed the rockers.

- To the manifold I have to say I'm a bit confused about all the cool sounding names . So a performer RPM with no special stuff is what I take. The block will be spraypainted anyway so why not the intake too. Just thought polished would look cool but the price for that is a bit steep.

- No actually I didn't see the 'each' thanks. I have to say without this site and especially your help I'd be dumping loads of money into the trash can here.
I am unsure. For one, I'd like to build everything myself and on the other side I'd like the security of buying a set that is supposed to fit. But, unless you're getting tired of this topic, I'll think I'll give assembling a shot.
The question, though, is which heads would be definitely worth their money, because if you don't know it then I have no chance of knowing it either .
Is the make important? I mean it doesn't have to be Edelbrock, right?
Do you have a better suggestion at hand? Because, I just went after the numbers you gave me and as far as I can see most heads with those numbers have 2.02 valves and 1.45" springs.

- Ditched the waterpump. If you don't need anything fancy do you think one of my old pumps would still work?

- Freeze plugs added

- Added the bolts on summit to have the list together. Will look at directly purchasing.

- Timing chain cover: I see nothing mentioned of fitting double roller applications. Am I to assume they fit unless otherwise mentioned? I'm thinking of going with a 1-piece set just to make my life a little bit easier. I don't think I'll be changing the cam too often.

- Pistons: Well that was a lucky shot then .

- Oil pump replaced

- As far as I can see there are no 750 cfm carbs with two barrels. At least not on Summit.

-Tools: I have a feeler gauge but I'll have to make sure it has inches too. The rest is on the list.

-About the damper: When I pulled mine I saw that it's a core wheel then a layer of... rubber? and then an outher wheel. The rubber is R.I.P. I'd say. Does reusing the old one make any sense or is it possible at all or is buying a new one the only feasible option? I mean it's not an expensive part. But what to look for? Because paying 50 bucks or 300$ is a bit of a difference .

- Flywheel: Again, what exactly am I looking for? And, stupid question ahead, where does a flywheel go anyway?

- Pushrods: Since I have a flat tappet cam and not a roller, my rods should be okay to reuse, right?

- Connecting rods should also be okay to reuse I think.

- Distributor: If I'm not mistaken I should have a HEI system in there right now? At least that's how I understood Vizard. He says basically cleaning and replacing rotor and cap. Opinion?

- Headers: Good question. Yes, headers I'll need... but... you know I have a TH200C behind the sucker. Before I don't find a tranny that I can build to take a little bit of beating I won't be able to get full power out of the engine anyway. I'm asking myself whether to leave the headers for now and do the rest.

- Power steering pump, Alternator, brackets and mounts: Do you think I can reuse the old stuff for now? The engine should be working with the parts we've added so far, right? Or do the old parts not fit the new ones?

Phew, you know Sonix, this is taxing. And I'm the kid with the new toys here. I think after this is done I'll have to see how I can manage to buy you a beer or something .

 

-Looks like you've got the ARP head bolts, but still have the edelbrock ones on there. Just make sure you remove those so you don't end up with 2 sets.

-You picked 12 pt stainless bolts for the motor. Those'll look great, just make sure you have 12pt sockets, I don't think you can use the 6pt ones. For what it's worth, I used allen bolts, they are much easier to get to for the intake manifold. SUM-56490SSP if you were interested. Only thing is, you can't use an "L" style allen key with your torque wrench.

-Yea, Edelbrocks "Performer" is basically a stock manifold. Just aluminum, and clean and new. "Performer RPM" is where they use a high rise dual plane, to enhance the power of the motor. Then you have plain, polished or endurashine for coatings. Mine is still raw AL, but I shoulda painted it, gas leaked out of the carb and i've got some yellow streaks...

-Cylinder head assembly, you'll probably need a few extra tools for this. A caliper, and valve spring compressor will be needed. Since its all new stuff, you don't have to do any reconditioning, so that's nice. Your call on this one.
Try digging through the forums here for good cylinder heads. Trick flows are good, Dart makes good ones. AFR is pretty expensive, but the best, Edelbrocks are pretty good, but I just think you don't want to jump on the first one you see. I know some people have made some posts in the "aftermarket products review" forum about RHS heads I think. See what you can find.

- Your old pump would probably work, but chances are it'll start to leak soon if its really old. I just replaced mine since it's easier to do with the motor on the stand than a few months later. I just used a $50 parts store replacement locally. Your call.

- oh, ok, I confused you here. "Double pumper" means it has two accelerator pumps, one in the primaries, and one in the secondaries. It still has primary barrels (venturi's), two of those, and still has secondary barrels (two), making it a 4 barrel. 2 barrel carbs are only used on weeny V6 cars for the most part, they don't even enter into a conversation about performance. A "double pumper" is also known as "mechanical secondaries". This means when you hammer the gas pedal to the floor, all 4 barrels will snap open, and the sudden rush of air would make the motor go lean, so the two accelerator pump shots pump a load of gasoline in there to balance it. A vacuum secondary is what you've picked, hammer the gas and all 4 barrels open, but there's an air door blocking the secondaries, preventing too much air, until the motor needs it. So it only uses one accelerator pump. This means the engine waits until it needs the extra air, before it opens that blocking door. A mechanical secondary is renowned for being harder on fuel (during acceleration), but its a bit faster. Again, your call.

-No, your old dampner is hosed then. Grab a summit 8" one, $59 for the basic model, non-SFI approved, has timing marks engraved up to 60* advanced. Works great.

-I need to correct myself, a flywheel is used for a standard transmission car, a FLEXPLATE is used for an auto. You will have/need a flexplate.

- The flexplate is what connects the motor to the transmission. Its a disc, about 30cm in diameter or so, and about 4mm thick. It's bolted to the back of the crankshaft. If yours from the 350 or 305 are still ok, then you can re-use them. If they are warped or cracked, grab a new one.

- Yep, your old pushrods off the 305 or 350 should be ok to reuse. Roll them on a piece of glass to check if they're straight. You should have 32 (16 from each motor), which should be able to get your 16 good ones. That's what I did.

- Yes, your con rods should be fine. Grab some ARP bolts, the connecting rod bolts are the highest stressed component in an engine, an upgrade there is worth its weight in gold. Usually you need to have them resized though, since the new bolts put more clamping force on it, which will make it smaller. So the machinist hones the bore out a bit. For me it was $90 for the ARP bolts locally, and $120 to re-size them. Or $220 for some new rods from Ohio Crankshaft which came with ARP bolts. I just bought the new rods.

- I forgot, you will need bearings eh?
-SUM-173000
SUM-172000 -
SUM-171000 - These two assume you don't have the crank turned .010" under. If so, you need .010" undersize main and rod bearings. Cam bearings are one size fits all.

- You should have an HEI system from the 1982 305, that'll work. Yep, vizard is right- just a new cap and rotor. Plug wires maybe (plugs for sure obviously), coil and module maybe. If they work ok now (I think vizard shows how to test the coil and module), then fine, if not, grab an MSD replacement coil and module, and a shim pack for the distributor.

-oh distributor springs to set up your ignition curve - MRG-928G

-Fair enough on the headers. Upgrading them later won't hurt you much.

- You can definately reuse your PS pump and alternator and brackets. Chrome dress up brackets are ~$20 if you want things to be shiny. I painted my old ones black.

-Oh, how about cooling? You've got your clutch fan from the 305 that you want to use, along with the radiator?

ah, I hate beer, but I have heard good things about swiss chocolate and the ladies over there...

 

Okay, most important things first, if you give me your addy I can send you some chocolate no problem. Although I thought we exported that stuff everywhere anyway and it would thus be available to you . I can't say much about the ladies, though. If Paris Hilton is your thing... they're all on the skinny as hell trip here, as if this was Hollywood. But it has one good side effect: I'd save on shipping .

A propos shipping. I'm already scared of the shipping cost. I'm at like 2500 bucks in parts, expecting up to 3000 when we're finished. I fear shipping will be another 1000 bucks easily... .

-Okay, thanks for the tip, removed the summit set.
-I had to look-up Allen screws. I can see why I'd have trouble with the torque wrench. Same goes for the 12 pt screws. I do have some tools for them but since I'm not sure I have the right size laying around I'll just go with standard hex. Good that you saw it because I didn't .

-I already have a valve spring compressor... well, actually two. It was a real pain removing the valves from the old heads, I can tell you. Caliper is no problem either.

-So basically I have selected the more economical carb? Well, lucked out again. At least assuming I don't waste like 20% power when accelerating.

-Selected the damper. A timing pointer is not needed, as it is included in the timing cover set.

-Flexplate: Since I have bought the engine relatively bare and partially disassembled, I have never seen a flexplate. I'd say I'll see one when I pull the 305. And taking that out isn't high on my todo list right now. Should I move that up on my list or just hope for the best? I mean a simple flexplate can be shipped relatively easy compared to heads and all the stuff.

-I have thought about bearings yesterday but forgot to add them as well... are bi metal bearings better than normal ones?

-Distributor: Well, adding up all the parts, would a new one be much more expensive?

For the rest, yes I'd use the stuff already in the TA.

So I'll go look for my cylinder heads and we have the question about bearings and distributor. I'll go look into headers now. And as soon as I get my list together I will get a quote from Summit. That scares me already .

 

Haha, I was just kiddin', besides I like 'em a little chubby I was just thinking Swiss=blonde. haha, don't worry about the chocolate, lets make sure you get the motor up and running and are happy with it first

distributor - yea exactly. If your 305 is running now, use a spark tester to check the quality of the spark. If it's good, then just grab the shims and springs. If it's not great, then yea, it'd be about the same to just buy a new basic one. ~$140 or so.

Yep, flexplate should be behind the 305, and should be fine.

*****VERY IMPORTANT KEY PART HERE***** Your 305 will be setup to use a 305 starter, as well as the 12.8" flexplate. You 350 will probably have the holes drilled in the block for the 350 starter, and therefore the 13.4" flexplate (or whatever the diameter is, the bigger one). Not sure if you can use the larger flexplate in the 200R4 tranny or not, if you have to use the smaller flexplate, ie, reuse your 305 one, then you can use the starter from the 305, but then it's crucial that you add the bolt hole to the 350 block, so you can bolt up the 305 starter.
305 starter - 2 bolt holes, straight pattern. Works with smaller flywheel/flexplate with 12.8" diameter

350 starter - 2 bolt holes, staggered pattern, works with larger 13.x" flywheel.
If the bellhousing on the tranny won't fit the bigger flywheel, then you pretty much need to modify the block to use the 305 starter. 3rd gens have a small tranny tunnel, so i'm 95% certain you need to go this route.
See my informative thread on this here, Vader added some pictures to show the problem area
https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/tech...hlight=starter

bi-metal, 1/2 groove bearings are the norm. Trimetal is an alternative, as is 3/4 groove or full groove. I think trimetal would work fine, but the other groove setups are more for racing applications. The bearings I listed are apparently made by "king" bearings, and a pretty good brand at a good price. I'm running those now.

Yea $3000 sounds about right. I have $3600 into my motor now, and i'm using the stock heads. It really adds up. Buy I do think you're going to be paying a heck of a lot more for shipping than I did... whew..

 

Well, whatever you are, _I_ am serious about the chocolate .

So before buying a flywheel I should check some facts about a 2004R swap... well that's that then .

I had an epiphany today... a colleague has given me the idea to ask his wife who works for a company that happens to ship in quite a number of large crates from time to time. I might get lucky on the shipping part. Will have to check that out .

By the way, in what way is the chamber and intake runner size dependant on other components. I have been looking at these http://store.summitracing.com/partde...5&autoview=sku but they have 195 intake runners.
Furthermore, what is a centerbolt manifold? Or better, what's special about it?

 

The intake runner size, 195cc's, has an effect on your powerband. So for example, stock heads might be around 165ish cc's. Those work great in a 1000-5000RPM powerband. The runner size can have poor flow, or great flow, that'll effect how much power it makes in that powerband, and if it's like 1000-4500RPM or 1000-6000RPM for example. One example of this is the TBI heads, 193's, they'll only run 1000-4500RPM, where as vortecs have roughly the same runner size, but will go from 1000-6000RPM say.

So, with a larger intake runner volume, going to the extreme, 235cc's, it's HUGE. This'll flow a lot more, but it has the same effect as going to a gigantic carb. It'll work well with a larger motor (400cid stroker motor for example), but will have poor port velocity, and give sluggish bottom end torque. It'll work well from 3000-8000RPM say, in a 350, or maybe 2000-7000 in a 400CID motor - for example.

So ideally, you'd want a 170cc intake runner, that was PERFECTLY optimized, and flowed like crazy. This would give you good bottom end with the small runner, and the high CFM flow would give you crazy huge power.

So, with your ideal power band being around 1200-5200RPM say, you'll want an entry level cylinder head, around 170cc's. 195cc is a kinda high for what you're doing.

Chamber size effects your static compression ratio. 64cc's, with a flat top piston like you've got picked, will give you in the neighborhood of 10:1 CR. If you go to a 74cc head, it'll drop down, if you go to smaller 58cc head it'll jump up. You want your *dynamic* compression ratio to be in the ballpark of 8.5:1, this is effected by your cams duration. You're picking a smallish cam, so it won't bleed off a lot of cylinder pressure, so you want your final *static* compression ratio to be around 9.5:1 or thereabouts.
Here's a link to some info, and a calculator for compression ratio's
http://kb-silvolite.com/calc.php

here's an explanation of *how* it's calculated;
http://kb-silvolite.com/article.php?action=read&A_id=12

If you scroll down on that second link they have a few articles there on engine building. If you've got time, i'd highly recommend you read them, they're solid gold. The one on ring gaps is EXCELLENT. (i'll be telling you in the near future to open up your ring gap on your rings for this very reason)

Oh, this reminds me, you'll want to have a "piston ring compressor" tool, and possibly a "piston ring expander". Not sure if you have them, just thought i'd bring it up. The expander isn't 100% necessary, but for $6 it's worth it. The compressor is entirely necessary.

Cylinder heads pre 1987 or so used perimeter bolt valve covers. Cylinder heads after used center bolt valve covers. Also with center bolt valve covers came the slightly different intake manifold bolt pattern (angle). I'm guessing this is what they're referring to. The intake manifold you've picked says for use on pre 1987 style cylinder heads I think, so these two would work together.

 

Well how do you know which CR to aim for anyway? That I haven't quite understood. Furthermore, I see how the calculate CR but where do they take all those numbers? I mean how am I supposed to know things like thickness of compressed seal?

 

Hmmm from all sides I hear that AFR heads are the best. Jegs has them for like 1300. Unfortunately, they're a bit... large in both areas. 180cc Intake Ports, 74cc Combustion chamber...

Seriously, if I stick with 170/64 then I might just as well buy Performer RPM heads. From all other products you hear equally many good and bad comments that it doesn't matter. Furthermore, availability is... limited. Perhaps I'm too close to stock for the head makers to be considered "target audience" .

 

CR is kinda a black art. It really depends on cam, fuel you can use, application, etc. Yours is basically a "performance street" application. I'm saying you should use around 9.5:1 static.

I run 10:1 static with iron heads, at 1280 meters elevation, and a 224/230* cam. I'm in the neighborhood of "hot street", basically one step above you there.

- Cylinder heads like NAL-12558060 or SUM-151124, coupled with the intake EDL-7116 is the vortec choice. Good for your application.

- dart's iron eagles are 180cc's DRT-10121111

- Brodix has these street heads at 170cc's, DRT-10121111 (pair, aluminum), or the 180cc version called the IK180. BRO-1021004 (also aluminum, I know a member on here runs the IK180, I forget his nickname now though..)

So the iron vortecs are ~$700 for the pair, assembled, everything else is in the $1000 range, assembled. The edelbrocks, darts, or brodix ones are all comparable in price, the deciding factor (and only way i'd drop $1000 into anything), would be to see a flow sheet.

Then there's also RHS and a few others to look at.

Your cylinder heads are really expensive, and are the single biggest thing that determines how your engine will run. Spend the most time and effort picking the best ones for you. I'd look carefully at the specs of all the ones I listed, and maybe contact the manufacturers and see if you can get flow data for those. Maybe ask the guys at summit, or on this forum, which might be better. But prepare for opinions and brand loyalty without a lot of fact.

All of the factors for calculating your compression ratio you either have, or will have once you get your block machined. You can ask summit what the compressed thickness is for the head gasket in that kit. That's what I had to do with the summit kit, turns out it was .039", with a 4.150" bore. Fairly standard size, give your take a hair. Your pistons I belive show a 5cc volume in the valve reliefs, (ie, they have a 5cc dish), etc etc.

haha, nah, your the target audience for "entry level" cylinder heads. Or "a bit better than stock". Don't look at the full on race heads or anything like that.

 

Hmmm I know it's probably a bit late to bring this up but... Are we being efficient here?

If I'm pumping thousands of $ into this project, do I really want to be just a bit better than stock? I do want a streetable engine with reasonable milage (which for a weekend car is a very relative statement...)... but I get the impression that the next step doesn't cost like twice what I'm looking at now but like 10% more. Is that feeling completely wrong? Or the better question, at which point in tuning does one get the most bang for the buck?

 

Hmmm after comparing several heads I've come to the conclusion that from the heads close to the numbers I'm looking at These have the best flow characteristics.
Well, unless smaller numbers are better on the flow charts, that is.

It seems they're a wee bit behind at .100" lift but they rule on the other measurements. Now the question is how far away from my field of application are they?

 

You've got a good point. Rebuilding an engine with quality parts, such that it'll last a long time, and not smoke like a chimney, means a few grand (to you at least...)

Going from 300hp -> 350HP ->400HP is a very small (if any) price difference for you right now. What do you want? I figured you only wanted 300HP, since that'll be easier on fuel, etc.. The xe262 and xe274 are the same price, and most other parts that make the difference in your power level are comparably priced.

Now that's like asking the meaning of life. It depends on what YOU want to get out of the engine, etc etc etc. Very hard to answer.

Yes, AFR heads are the best, no doubt about it. I think those would work damn well, 180cc isn't huge.
Do you have a link to the flow chart on those heads? I'm curious.

Those heads will definately step up your power level. If you want to step up the cam, feel free to do that now. You're now choosing between 320HP and 400HP, basically.

The only factor holding you back might be gas mileage, and if you want to buy a higher RPM stall speed convertor for your tranny.

Still, a comp xe268 would work very well with those heads, IMHO. You may want a slightly higher stall speed than stock, but your mileage won't suffer much. You'll want to have 3.23 or higher rear gears to get the most of our of the car.

Assuming you tell your machinist to deck the block to "a 9.010 crank centerline -> deck height", or "deck off .015", you should be at this compression ratio, thereabouts.

 

Well, I basically said 300 to 350 HP because I thought that 400 HP and more were going into "wild" street" applications... and thus cost a lot more money . See, I don't "need" 400 HP. But then, I don't exactly "need" 300 HP either. This is about building this baby and then having fun driving it. I never set myself a deadline so if this car takes a decade to build then I don't care either.

But to get to the point: If I can get more HP and torque under the hood for the same money then I don't see why I shouldn't. This car is going to be an oldtimer in the foreseeable future and being a weekend car it shouldn't be too bad concerning taxes even at that powerlevel.. .so... why not? I'd like to keep it as efficient as possible, meaning not too hard on the mileage but what kind of mileage are we talking about anyway? My daily driver (1999 Buick Century) has about 25 miles per gallon. That is basically impossible to get with a TA anyway. But where would I be? Somewhere around 20, 15 or less mpg?

See, I started thinking that I might just as well be rebuilding the 305. I still think it would be neat to have a more powerful 305 in the car but I had to be realistic. With all the money going into the car getting the best out of it isn't just a nice add-on. That's why I went and got myself a 350 because it basically gives you much more power with the same investment the 305 would take.

So yes, let's go 400 HP . I wanted to change rear gears anyway, by the way, and since I'm still planning to have an OD tranny in there mileage should still be better than average. Now I just know that I need to have the tranny built for 400 HP.

The flow chart for the AFR headers is here. The competition package tops that even though I have to find out what they define as a competition package .

The most important thing for me is that the power is available in lower RPM ranges since we have a speed limit at 120 km/h on the highway. Top end speed thus doesn't do squat for me assuming that we reach 120 km/h anyway . I want a nice sounding but not overly loud engine with good response to my stepping on the pedal, especially from 0 km/h. I'm not planning on doing burnouts, we don't have quarter miles or other racetracks and so on. This isn't a pimp mobile but a cruiser with some bite.

I've been looking at both the XE274H and XE268H. I lack the experience to tell which would suit this machine better. I'm assuming the 274 will give more peak power but will be a bit less responsive in lower RPM ranges. As far as I have understood the principle of a torque/stall converter, this should be fixed by one with a higher stall speed. The question is which stall speed. Summit itself has only one for my desired transmission and it's 2500. If standard is somewhere around 1800 then 2500 is a bit beyond 'a bit higher'... Again, I lack experience to answer myself this question.

 

With overdrive, 20mpg on the highway is perfectly expected. I can make 20mpg in mine, without overdrive.

It's a toss up, I thin the xe268h would probably suit you best, as would have a slightly stronger bottom end, and would be finished by around 6000RPM, right about where the heads are topping out.

I'd ask comp cams what stall speed they recommend with the xe268 for your car. I think 2400RPM is around what i've heard, so 2500RPM should be perfect. I only know my own car, (standard trans), so i'm not all that well versed in auto tranny stuff.

You say you don't plan on doing burnouts. I say .

 

I say I'm not planning it. I never had such a powerful car so I'm not sure whether I can avoid them. But really, I've always found burnouts to be a very strange thing. I don't see the fun in removing half my very expensive tires just for show.

But you never know, I might just change my opinion once I have the car.

Gah, is it too much to ask for a simple e-mail link on the website? Neither on the Summit nor on the Comp Cam website I have found one. I realise Americans prefer to call but I'm not exactly in the same country...

 

Summit, you can submit a tech question,
http://www.summitracing.com/streetan...chQuestion.asp
or, ask a question
http://www.summitracing.com/customer...duser/ask.php?

hmm, good point, can't find a simple email like to comp, aside from compcams@compcams.com but I don't think that's for general enquiries...

 

I've uses one of those links on Summit. I'm still waiting for an answer though to be fair it WAS Christmas and New Year. They might have to work through quite a few emails.

Anyway, I don't need that engine ready tomorrow so no big deal. I have found a table with several makes and models and the transmissions that were used... I think on Monday I'll call a few junk yards and see whether they have one that has the 200-4R.

 

Okay, first batch of parts have arrived. So far so good... I have only one wrong item ordered (SB ARP bolts... SB yes, but Ford ). Although Northern seems to diustrust my building skills... they sent me two Fel-pro gasket kits, two cam bearing kits and two sets of frost plugs .

Also, I have not yet ordered a harmonic balancer and the heads. That will be step two or three. I'll bring the pistons and rings to the shop and have them bore the sucker to 4.030.

Before I do, I have a question, though: Getting the crank balanced seems an awfully good idea IMO. But is that the same as balancing the whole engine? Or is that a different process?

Furthermore, do I buy a harmonic balancer that is for an internally or externally balanced engine?

 

350 engine right? Internally balanced damper, probably an 8" model.

Yea, when you get it "balanced" that means they balance the crank to the rods and pistons and rings. The whole rotating assembly is balanced together. Minus the damper and flexplate, so that you can swap those without disturbing anything.

Nice score on the doubles. Hope you don't need them!