Two months ago I decided to do serious things to my 1982 (non cc) lg4 engine...

I removed the stock peanut cam and replaced it with a crane z-256-2 (followed cranes installation directions). Replaced lifters, pushrods, rockers, gas pump, water pump and timing chain to a double roller.

Since I would be taking the engine apart, I also decided to replace the stock intake manifold with a 2101 edelbrock manifold (non egr) and had the original 416 heads rebuilt installing 1.94/1.60 valves.

All respective gaskets were replaced.

Once completed, broke in the cam as specified by Crane with rotella/oil additive and this went fine.

Now, when the engine is fired up cold it revs fine at high idle, once it comes off high idle the engine stalls and dies. It will either not restart for a second time or I have to play with the vac advance for an hour before it actually decides to restart.

I measured compression at each cylinder and I get the following readings : 1:145,3:150,5:150,7:145,2:145,4:150,6:145,8:150.
I've replaced ignition module using 3x different units as well as ignition coil without any change.
The pickup coil is good.

Vacuum is between 17 and 20hg depending on advance and the timing is set at 14*....

Please help, I've run out of ideas..........

 

Do you have the vacuum advance connected to the correct port. Manifold vacuum if it is supposed to be manifold vacuum. Throttled if it is supposed to be throttled?

 

I tried both .. manifold and ported, there was no change. It actually runs very rough regardless of what port is used.

 

What about if you bypass the vacuum advance? Like you do when you are setting the timing. Disconnect the line and plug the port off. Does it run any different?

Did you get the timing right on the cam? Adjusted the valves? Correct firing order?

 

When I bypass the vacuum advance.... it doesn't run any different. Remember that it runs at high idle so no change.

The timing right on the cam ? Correct firing order? I installed the cam dot-to-dot (cam at 3 o'clock), then to 12- 12(cam at 9 c'clock) and installed distributor with rotor pointing to the 1 cylinder (and #1 post on the dizzy cap) with the correct firing order, I have verified the firing order a half a dozen times just to make sure that I did not have any brain freeze. The thing that bothers me is that when I attempt to restart the engine I have to advance the dizzy to the point where my vacuum can is hitting the manifold and it runs very rough.

Adjusted the valves?
As for the valves I followed the lash adjustment identified in the Haynes manual, except 1/4 turn instead of 1/2 or 3/4... I did not want to overtighten and have other issues. I here a couple of them as they are ticking. I will readjust them (warm) when I can get the engine to idle properly.

 

You, my good man are the classic "one tooth off" on the distributor. Its happened countless times. The can hitting the intake is the dead giveaway. This seems to happen more with aftermarket cams, etc. You need to re-stab that dizzy.

 

Boy oh Boy, I'm relieved. I've restabbed that dizzy in position over 4 times,, as I thought the one tooth off was a possibility and obviously re-installed without success....

What I did was : brought the #1 piston to TDC on its compression stroke and installed the dizzy pointing to cylinder #1 with always the same results.

How can I do this ???

Thanks, Thanks, Thanks

 

If it were me, I would pull it out and reinstall one tooth over. Done it lots of times, so its quick and easy. Takes a little bit of feel though, to get it right.

 

Yes, I do intend to take it out and reinstall... how do I know when it's one tooth over ?? Clockwise or counterclockwise ?? Where does the rotor need to point ??

 

If I'm correct, and I think i am, it doesnt matter where the distributor is, as long as the rotor and the #1 post are phased properly. The only thing you have to watch for is your vacuum can hitting your intake. I take your word for it being phased properly. When the car fails to start are you checking all your basics? I know you stated you checked the compression, and that all looks good. Try to put a little fuel in it and check for spark just to start ruling out basics. When it does initially start up and run does it run good?

 

Well as it is now the rotor is pointed directly to the #1 post, who points directly to cylinder 1 and the balancer is at TDC (0).

As I mentionned earlier the vacuum can hits the manifold when I try to restart the engine a second and third (etc) time...

It will not start even though I put fuel straight into the carb... I already verified the spark and a strong spark was present for all 8.

When it does start up it runs awful, as if its running on 6 cylinders (except at the first startup when idle is rather high)

 

what does this statment mean? the dizzy is moving after the first start attempt?

have you double and triple checked the plug wires making sure you dont have them 1 post off on the dizzy?

 

Ok, well reinstalling the distributor a tooth or two over will only gain you more timing adjustment, as long as you maintain proper rotor/cap phasing (with respect to #1 being at TDC compression stroke). Get it so the rotor and the post with the plug wire running to #1 cylinder are dead nuts lined up. Then rotate your distributor like 1/4" counter clockwise, that should give you enough advance to get it running (just eliminate the vacuum advance for this; plug the intake port, etc). When you get it running, check your timing. Once it is set at a decent advance make sure to tighten your distributor clamp! Also, make sure your cap/rotor are good and the gear on your distributor is good...you may be experiencing spark scatter. If after all this it still runs crappy, I would be inclined to lean towards the cam timing being off. If you have one of those timing sets with built in advance/retard keyways you might have aligned two unlike symbols on the timing gears. Or, the chain may have jumped a tooth. Hope all goes well. Keep in touch man.
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86 TA, I saw that too, which is why I said to make sure he tightened his clamp down. I too was a bit confused with that statement.

 

No, the dizzy does not move on its own... i have to move it to get it to barely restart after the first start.
I checked my wires upteen times... I can't understand how they can be one post off when I have Cyl 1 on TDC, rotor pointing to post #1 who in turn is pointing directly to Cyl#1 ???

 

The #1 post pointing to #1 cylinder doesn't mean anything...it can point to the firewall or elsewhere as long as the rotor is phased correctly and all the plug wires are in the correct order and running to their respective cylinders. Orienting it with the #1 post pointing in the general direction of the #1 cylinder just makes it so you have ample adjustment room. I would try readjusting the distributor and if it doesn't work I would start looking elsewhere.

 

Just a thought, have you tried adjusting the base timing at all? Like more/less advance?

 

they may not be 1 post off, i was just asking, maybe by accident the #1 plug wire ended up on the dizzy one post off and the rest from there.

So it starts, runs at high idle, and as soon as the idle come down the motor dies and will not restart for a long time? Have you done anything to the carb? fuel pump? Its not flooding out is it? Just checking.

Where is your base timing set? Its possible your base is set way retarded, so hypothetically, with full advance the motor is running ok with about, say, 6 degree of timing, but after you loose the advance you end up 10+ degrees retarded and its killing the motor? possible combined with a low base idle setting on the carb?
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ahh great minds think alike, you beat me to it by seconds

 

Thats why I told him to reinstall the distributor with a decent base advance that should at least get it running so that way he can check it and to eliminate the vacuum advance for right now. At least we're all kind of heading in the right direction...

 

Thats a good place to start if he hasn't already.

 

Yes, it starts when cold (although not a smooth idle)... when I blip the accelerator and it comes off high idle the engine dies.

Sometimes it will restart immediately if I give it more advance and sometimes it won't restart at all.

No, I haven't done anything to the carb. The fuel pump is new and fuel is delivered to the carb. As for flooding, I guess it is after the number of times I try to restart the engine.

My timing is now set at 14*.
I've tried retarding it as well but no luck for restarts.

 

14* is base? with the vaccume advance off? What happens if you advance it a lot, maybe about 30-35*? It still seems like the timing is not right some how.

 

Hey Stekman,

Yes, I've tried and no change.
I will re-install the distributor as was also suggested by ljnowell, JG04222, and 86TA...

Is it possible that a bad distributor is causing these issues ??

 

30-35° is probably a bit excessive. I've built mildly cammed motors though where mid 20's was what the motor needed. I would suggest trying low to mid 20's of initial advance. You may need timing tape around the balancer.

 

86TA : 14* with vacuum advance on. When I give it more advance engine revs increase without any issues...

 

i guess anything is possible. I know this is a shot in the dark, but you didn't change the timing cover on that engine, did you? If you installed a 350 timing cover that has the pointer at the 2 o'clock position it may be what is causing your timing related issue, because a 305's pointer is at the 12 o'clock position IIRC. Also, when you say the revs increase when you give it more advance, does it also smooth out or does it still run crappy, just more rpm's? Remember, you should be setting your base timing with the advance canister disconnected.

 

Stekman : I will change balancer.

Would there be a particular reason why the marker on the balancer is shifty ??

 

yeah the outer shell could have spun on your balancer...we might be getting closer

 

Jg04222 : I really appreciate your efforts, believe me.
Yes, I've replaced the timing cover and installed the 2 o'clock pointer. BUT, i also marked the new TDC on the balancer for this pointer.
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Ok, lets assume that the outer shell has spun on the balancer... what would be the symptoms ??

 

the timing mark on your balancer would not correspond with true TDC compression stroke for the #1 cylinder. If you find that is the case, also check the keyway in the crankshaft and make sure it is not sheared, allowing the balancer to rotate about the crank.

 

i was basing the number on the assumption that something is off, whether it be the dizzy, the balancer, timing tab ect. The extra degrees may bring it to a running state, and from there you can look for the problem.
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so when its running and you add more advance the rpms increase? Keep advancing it until it stops gaining rpm, then see how it runs when it gets off the high idle

like everyone is saying, something is array with the timing marks, either the balancer is spun, the pointer is in the wrong place ect. You cant trust the timing light at this point. Try timing it by ear and see where it gets you before you start tearing the front of the engine apart to change the balancer. It only takes a few minutes to fire the motor up and twist the dizzy around a bit.

 

JG04222 : When I re-installed the dizzy last night... I installed a straw in cylinder 1 and on the compression stroke (moved the engine manually until at TDC - marker on the balancer) the straw had a slight resistance from the piston at the TDC position. The marker on the balancer was pointing at 0. Therefore, I don't think the outer balancer shell has shifted.
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86TA : I can bring it at a running state at first startup, nevertheless with a high idle... is there anything specific I should be looking at during that time which could help me ??

 

You don't need to change to a new balancer. As stated, just verify where TDC is (piston stop is required for this), then place timing tape around the balancer outer hub.

It is not uncommon for the 20+ yr old balancer to shift. A balancer is made of the inner and outer hubs, with an elastomer ring sandwiched between the 2. Over time, the elastomer becomes un-bonded and the outer damper hub shifts its location in correlation to the inner hub. A problem when the timing notch is located on the outer damper hub, and it's located by the inner hub.

 

Stekman : I will use the piston stop and verify if TDC is really TDC (I still believe so as described to JG04222 previously)...

Nevertheless, I know that #1 cylinder is on the compression stroke and at TDC. Valve covers were off and gave me full visual access to the #1 I & E valves which were in the lower position.

 

when you start it and its at its high idle, the choke is on right?
what is you timing at that point?
What is the RPM?

You mentioned you tap the throttle and the choke opens, the rpms drop, and it stalls. right?

Give what i mentioned in an earlier post a try. When the car is running at its high idle, advance the timing at least 10-15 degrees from where it is, if the engine is still running fine at that point and doesn't start to get rough, see if it will idle once you take the choke off.

If you are timing with your light at the high idle, your not doing it right. Time it at idle with the vacuum advance disconnected and the port capped on the carb. At that point you set it to 14* or whatever your using as your base timing. Set your idle speed. 750 or so.

If you want to get your balancer straightened out first, thats fine, but not needed just yet.

 

86TA : Please see my responses in " - "

When you start it and its at its high idle, the choke is on right? "Yes, the choke is on".

What is you timing at that point? "14*"

What is the RPM? "1700"

You mentioned you tap the throttle and the rpms drop, the choke opens, and it stalls. right? "Yes"

If you are timing with your light at the high idle, your not doing it right. "I know, but I can't usually get it off idle. When I'm able to restart the engine for a second time, I can't give it additional advance as the vacuum can is hitting the intake manifold".

Time it at idle with the vaccume advance disconected and the port capped on the carb. "yes, that is what I tried to do when I got the engine restarted at one point and was unable due to the dizzy travel".

At that point you set it to 14* or whatever your using as your base timing. Set your idle speed. 750 or so.

If you want to get your balancer straightened out first, thats fine, but not needed just yet. "ok"

 

.....

 

Hey 86TA,

The can is hitting the intake manifold at the top corner of the carb (on the passenger side) almost in the middle of the engine.

I will take a picture tommorrow morning and post it...

I will re-install the dizzy tommorrow morning... just to make sure, I believe that I need to move the dizzy gear counterclockwise ??

Yesterday afternoon I tried moving the wires over one post clockwise and the engine cranked and cranked (dizzy was totally counter clockwise and the rotor was pointing to the #8 cap post) with no start.

Then I went the other way... engine cranked and cranked with no start either.

 

[quote=Joey9011;3991613]Hey 86TA,

The can is hitting the intake manifold at the top corner of the carb (on the passenger side) almost in the middle of the engine.

quote]

ok, thats not where i pictured it, so forget most of my rambling in my previous post.

a pic would be good.

the canister on my old motor, was between the valve cover and the carb, not behind it. It needs to be out more, hmmm let me see if i have a pic
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here, check this thread, post #5, not mine, but i clearly shows the canister and how it needs to be orientated
link didnt work, disregaurd the red circles
here


perharps you are on the right tooth, you just have to pop up the dizzy, rotate it around the carb then put it back down?

 

86TA : I checked and all the pics I have are over the 1mb limit. do you want me to send the picture at an email address ??

You are right. The canister is between the valve cover and the carb (must of explained myself wrong).

If you look at the picture (post #5), in my case the canister will rotate all the way and hit the intake manifold in direct relation to the bottom corner of the carb on the passenger side.

What do you mean pop up the dizzy and rotate around the carb ??

 

Sorry TA, I made the mistake when I told you that it hit the top corner of the carb..... its the bottom corner.

 

Whether its all the problem or not, your distributor is not installed properly right now. The canister should never hit the corner of the carb. You definately need to fix this before going anyfarther.

 

You say you changed the intake... did you check for a vacuum leak? A bad vacuum leak will cause it to stall at low RPM, like near idle speed, but may run - rough - at higher speeds, like a fast idle speed. Did you miss any vacuum hoses? Any fittings on the intake or carb that don't have either a hose or a plug?

 

I had a similar problem on my LG4, turned out the dizzy was in 180! It ran rough at idle, sounded pretty bad...but ran. Im just sayin lol, you could check to see by rotating the wires and nothing else. Goodluck! And let us know how it runs!

 

ljnowell : Yes, I agree with you. What is your procedure for re-installing the dizzy ??

 

Air Adam : You are correct, I did replace the Intake manifold. I verified many times and did not forget to re-install any hoses or plugs. In addition, I don't hear any hissing and did the propane check without any problems... I will double check this during the re-installation of the dizzy and let you know.

F-Body Demon : Thanks, I will be re-installing the dizzy and let you guys know the outcome.
I am following the Haynes manual on how to install the dizzy. Do you have any other suggestions ??

 

There's no need to pull and re-install the dist, at least while you troubleshoot. Spin it around near where you want the can then re-align the #1 wire with the rotor on whichever post it fits. You can always re-stick it later once you're sure what the issue is-if you're intent on having #1 in the 'correct' position with respect to the engine.

At 1700 RPM your mechanical advance should be adding timing and I'd expect the gun to show more than 14 degrees if base were set properly.

I suspect you'll find that your issue is a combination of a few small things. Timing and vacuum leaks (noticed it took a while for that to be mentioned) are my bets, although I'm worried about: "I installed the cam dot-to-dot (cam at 3 o'clock), then to 12- 12(cam at 9 c'clock)". Hope that was a typo?

 

Naf : What I meant by installed the cam dot-to-dot was that the dots were at cam 6 and crank 12 (cam dowel pin at 3 o'clock). Then set the #1 at firing on compression stroke, both the cam at 12 and crank at 12 (cam dowel pin at 9 o'clock). Is that ok ??

 

Yes, the cam timing should be either Crank @ 12, Cam @ 12. Or Crank @ 12 Cam @ 6. Basically both dots at the top of both gears, or dots "touching" (Top of crank gear, bottom of cam gear). If you have anything else tear it apart again and correct. It won't matter where your distributor is stabbed if the cam is out of time with the crank. I don't think that you would be getting good compression if the cam timing was off though.

As far as getting clearance to turn your distributor more you just need to lift the distributor up far enough so that the shaft will spin. Turn it just slightly counter clockwise to the next tooth. If it won't seat down all the way you will probably have to pull it all the way out and turn the oil pump shaft a bit. A long screwdriver works well for that.

I also have not seen anyone post the firing order. Just for good measure verify that it is correct:
1-8-4-3-6-5-7-2

Also, I know that there are issues with installing bigger valves in 305s. You stated that you put in 1.94/1.60 valves. Does anyone know if there are any clearance issues with these?

 

OldCelica :
According to your post , I've installed the cam properly then... I actually went back to the pictures I took before installing the timing cover to make sure that the installation was done correctly.

As for the 1.94/1.60 valves, I went searching on this forum before actually having it done and I only found positive comments in the many posts... I also would like to know if that can be a problem and if anyone else experienced any issues.
Thanks

 

sorry, i was pretty tired when i posted that and it was a brain fart, disregaurd that i had the rotations for advance/retart backwards.

I still say you have something messed up with the dizzy. With the canister hitting the carb, where is the #1 post facing? probably more towards cylinder 5 or 7?