3rdgenmaro

iTrader: (9)

Well guys, I recently installed a LT4 Hotcam into a 97 vortec motor with a ton of help from Melonhead. I figured I would post up on some part numbers and such that I ran into during the swap. I searched many different forums for help on this, so this thread is meant to be a help to anyone that decides to do the install.

First off, the motor is a carburated 97 Vortec 350 from a truck. It is in my 88 camaro with a stock 700r4. From what I have read, these motors come stock with 255hp. Or atleast that is what GM claims. The motor ran great, had decent power, but I wanted more. I wasnt looking for all out horsepower, but a good streetable cam that would work well with the rest of the engine and that would wake that motor up. I decided to go with the GM LT4 Hotcam. The cam is very streetable, has a smooth idle, and a good powerband that doesnt go too high in the rpm range. The cam is listed as NAL-24502586 (summit number) http://store.summitracing.com/partde...6&autoview=sku
It is a hydraulic roller with 1,500 - 5,800 operating range, 218/228 at .050, .492 lift with 1.5 rockers and a 112 lsa.

The main problem with the vortec heads as many people know is the lift restriction of .480 If you have the heads off the engine, I would recommend having the correct machining of the valve guide done and have screw in studs installed. However, you can make these heads work with larger lift cams without removing the heads. This is where Melonhead was a lifesaver for me. If you use the GM LS6 beehive valve springs (GM PART # 12499224), Comp Cams retainers 787-16, and change the umbrella valve seals to Sealed Power Part # ST2015, you should be able to get up to 0.550 lift. (I am currently only running .492 lift with this combination with no problems, however in the next couple months I will be swapping to 1.6 full roller rockers giving me a lift of .525.)

***5-27-14 Update: Had issues with the car smoking at idle. Suspected the valve seals. Ordered Fel-Pro SS72861 stem seals. While replacing them I found a couple of the old ones had popped up and were just riding the valve stem. Clearance with the retainer is still good, atleast with the 1.5 rockers I am running.*****

Swapping the valve springs is simple. Im not going into the details on how to swap valve springs on an assembled engine, you can find that elsewhere. I will say that the new seals go on fairly easily and if you put some oil on the inside it will help it slip on. Using an old retainer from a spring you just removed, press down on the seal until it fully seats on the bottom. you dont need to buy one of those installer tools for $30. The ls6 valvesprings are alittle tight to install sometimes. I had to put some of them under a hairdryer for a little bit for them to slip on. It was tight, but not tight enough to warrant a concern.

One of the huge downfalls of doing this swap with the engine in the car is the stock plastic timing cover. I first started by removing several of the front oil pan bolts. Most of you have pulled a timing cover in car before, so not much detail in that respect. The stock oil pan gasket is a one piece rubber style so be careful. While I was working the cover off, the bottom corner broke. Cheapest place I found was summit for replacement NAL-12562818 $23. The summit piece is built by GM and comes with gaskets and bolts. The crank position sensor holes are in the cover, but if you are using one, you must cut it out yourself.

The crank position sensor trigger wheel is pressed onto the crank in front of the crank sprocket. A screwdriver was all that was needed to pop it off. Gently pry on one side then the other until it comes off the keyway. The rest of the cam change is straight forward, pull spider, pull lifters, pull cam, reinstall cam, reinstall lifters, reinstall spider, reinstall timing gears. For reference the timing set I used was Cloyes CLO-9-1157. Also from summit.

If you take your time, you can reinstall the timing cover with the engine in the car, without dropping the oil pan. It just takes time, patience, and a steady hand. Do not get too forcefull or you will break it. From here on out it is basic reinstall. I set the hydraulic lifters at 1/2 turn.

Distributor gear. That is the big question I had. Do you have to run a bronze gear? No. Since these motors come originally with a roller cam, the stock gear will work with this cam. GM cams use a melonized distributor gear on the cam. However, if you go to an aftermarket cam, you might have to change out since they are billet. But for the GM hotcam, your old distributor gear will work.

I am running an Edelbrock Performer RPM intake with a holley 600 with vac secondaries. I have alot to do under the hood when money allows. Full roller 1.6 rockers, custom wires, custom air intake, and a basic cleanup of stuff under the hood.

The idle didnt change much. It almost sounds exactly as it always had. After some linkage issues I had, I could tell a huge difference in the motor. That cam really woke it up. I have realized now I need to change out the governer in the transmission to let first gear turn higher before shifting. I havent been able to do any tuning to it lately. The first couple of hard runs has given me a nice little noise somewhere in the driveshaft or rearend. Got to fix that first. I am running a stock converter. The only issue I have with it is that at times when you are coasting around a turn or down the road, you can feel the car want to "buck" alittle.

http://www.grandsportregistry.com/dyno.htm This is the registry for the 96 LT4 cars and the mods done with dynos done. Most show atleast 300hp at the wheels. I have not been able to dyno, but I can say it is alot more than the 255 the motor started out with.

All together I am completely happy with the swap. I have around $600 in the swap and it is definately worth it.

I will post up more as I get the time to tune. Here are a few pics.

five7kid

iTrader: (14)

Links aren't working.

What intake are you using? A Performer RPM would be required to get the upper RPM power. A 650 carb would also help.

Stock stall is a killer.

3rdgenmaro

iTrader: (9)

I am running a Performer RPM. Carb is based off what I had at the moment. I plan on updating it sometime. Money constraints are too much right now. Same goes for the converter. Definately going to update sometime. The reason for mentioning that I am running a stock converter is not to say that it works just as good, it is to show that if you are in a tight budget, that yes a stock converter will work for the time being. I would definately recommend atleast a 2000 stall. But if you get into that, I would also recommend going with a higher compression ratio, bigger carb, air-gap intake, stall converter, etc. That is not my point however. Just putting information out there for people that are in the situation I was in and couldnt find any information.

Pics are fixed now.

3rdgenmaro

iTrader: (9)

as an update, car runs great. No problems or regrets. Very happy.

I swapped in a 94 Z28 rearend with disks, posi, and 3.73 gears. I took it out on the road and had some severe wheel hop issues. I installed a set of Lakewood LCAs and that solved that problem. However before I could get to the drag strip, my 700r4 is shot. Started slipping yesterday.

Doom86

Awesome sounding budget build 3rdgenmaro. Thanks for all the information too. Nice to have part numbers to reference.

Will those sealed power positive seals (Sealed Power Part # ST2015) work on my 416 casting heads with-out machine work? I'll be using comp xe268, comp springs (981?) and i have std and off-set locks i can use. Trying to do a budget build atm my self.

Good luck with that 700r. I'd do a decent rebuild on that thing. Z-pack 3/4 clutch pack, shift kit and cooler would help survive all that "new" torque.

3rdgenmaro

iTrader: (9)

I really have no idea. I had some help in picking the parts. All I know for sure is that they work on the vortecs. Good luck with your build.

89RSTBI

iTrader: (5)

I am having trouble finding the valve seals. I found one place that had 8 of them but I am guessing I will need 16 to do both heads. Do you have any idea where would be a good place to get the other 8?

3rdgenmaro

iTrader: (9)

yes you will need 16. This is where I bought mine from

http://www.rockauto.com/catalog/raframecatalog.php

but it looks like they are out of stock on them. You might be able to call up Napa, Advance, autozone, etc. and give them the part number. They might be able to cross reference the number.

The seals are actually designed and produced for 1984-1990 Dodge Daytonas. You can check that site I posted, it lists vehicles under it.

Here is another link to the seals: http://www.oreillyauto.com/site/c/de...2402&ppt=C0146

89RSTBI

iTrader: (5)

yeah those things are going to be a problem to find I believe. Heck i guess I will just order another 8 from someone and wait the 55 days for them to get here lol. My motor is still in pieces right now so I am in no great big hurry and this way seems to be allot cheaper than buying each individual Comp Cams piece I was going to have to buy. When you say you had to use a hair dryer to get the springs on what was the reason for that if you don't mine me asking, to get the seals warm so the springs would fit over them?

3rdgenmaro

iTrader: (9)

no, I just added some heat to the springs to get them to expand alittle. It was pretty cold in the garage when I was installing them. Some of the springs didnt really want to go down all the way on the seats. Just heated them up alittle until they were warm and they slipped on alot easier. Nothing major.

If your motor is in pieces, I recommend doing the right thing and having the guides machined down. Just to be certain.

89RSTBI

iTrader: (5)

I went ahead and ordered them from rockauto and got this message "Unfortunately, SEALED POWER Part # ST2015 is on backorder. The Manufacturer is not aware of when the part will be back in stock.

It appears that we may have alternates for your application, Please call our toll-free customer service number at 866-762-5288 to discuss this further." so if they have any seals from the car mentioned above it should work correct? what engine does this vehicle these are supposed to fit have in it

3rdgenmaro

iTrader: (9)

go back to rockauto's website, punch in the part number in the catalog.

when it comes up, click on the blue part number, it will give you a list of all the vehicles that it fits. The engine is not listed, but there are several vehicles listed. Autozone should be able to find it for you.

also check this out

http://autoparts.thecarconnection.co...ve-seal-st2015

89RSTBI

iTrader: (5)

I got the seals today and at first i didn't think they were going to work but after working with them a little I finally got them. The problem is the Sealed poewr parts have a metal ring around them at the bottom which stops them from installing all the way, the fel pro parts doesn't have this ring so i just took that ring off and after working with them a little they finally went on

3rdgenmaro

iTrader: (9)

they must have changed then. Mine from Sealed Pro didnt have any metal either. I put alittle oil on them to help them slide, then took a retainer and pushed them all the way on.

***5-27-14 Update: Had issues with the car smoking at idle. Suspected the valve seals. Ordered Fel-Pro SS72861 stem seals. While replacing them I found a couple of the old ones had popped up and were just riding the valve stem. Clearance with the retainer is still good, atleast with the 1.5 rockers I am running.*****

3rdgenmaro

iTrader: (9)

Well to update my situation on this...I got alittle behind on working on the car, bought a house, christmas, weather, etc, has held me back. I got her back in the garage this past weekend to try to get her back on the road. Slow process when you only have a few days a month to get anything done.

I bought a full rebuild kit from Dana at Pro Built Automatics. Excellent kit and excellent customer service. My trans rebuilder has everything and hopefully he will have it done by the time Im ready to reinstall it. Im also going with an ACC 2200-2800 10" stall converter. To help the trans Ive installed a plate cooler in front of the AC condenser and Im wiring in an autometer trans temp gauge.

Also bought some other goodies to put on.
2002 WS6 wheels (already running 94z28 rear, bought 2 spacers for the fronts)
UMI subframe connectors
MSD 6AL
82-89 PBR Disk/Disk brake proportion valve
Comp Cams 1.6 Pro Magnum rockers

Hopefully I will be able to get the trans back and have the car back on the road by April.

When I get around to putting the 1.6 rockers on Im going to try to address some questions I have seen on this site. First off, will be measuring clearances with these components on vortec heads. Second will be if the comp pro magnum 1.6s will fit under stock vortec heads. Like i said, hopefully it will be sooner then later. I miss my toy.

3rdgenmaro

iTrader: (9)

Finally got to the track last night with the combo.

with the stock 1.5 rockers, 10" 2400 stall, 3.73 posi, best last night in the 1/8 was 8.507 at 74mph. I was happy with it.

Hopefully will get around to installing the 1.6s next weekend. Have done some research on them. With the LS6 yellow springs on vortec heads the installed height is right around 1.800". Coil bind for those springs are at 1.085" so coil bind should not be an issue at the .525" lift with the 1.6 rockers. I will be double checking the installed height. Main measurement Im wanting to get is the distance I have between the seal and the retainer. Since the guides are not machined, this is the critical measurement. Will post up whenever the chance comes to do this.

3rdgenmaro

iTrader: (9)

Finally got around to taking some measurements this past weekend. With the heads still in the car and using a set of standard digital calipers, I measured only 0.547 between the top of the seal and the bottom of the retainer. Currently with the 1.5s im sitting at 0.492 lift, but with the 1.6s I would have been at .525". Im going to stick with the 1.5s. I dont feel comfortable with only 0.022" clearance. Recommended clearance is atleast 0.050".

The intake on a stock vortec head has its maximum flow at ~.490 as it is. So any added lift on the intake side would cause a stumble in the air velocity anyways.

Im looking for a good set of 1.5 full rollers for her now. Im planning on hitting the 1/8 again on July 30.

esp68camaro

Do you think you could use this head modification with the comp cams xe274 cam I have an 1971 350 block trying to do a budget build myself?

3rdgenmaro

iTrader: (9)

it will work if you are using the 1.5 rockers keeping the max valve lift to .490

HOWEVER, I strongly urge you to have the guides machined down, especially if you have the heads off the motor.

esp68camaro

I actually had plan to use the oe 1.5 rockers. I really like cam for what it is dont need any more lift.

my plans are 350ci four bolt main
5.7 rods, .60 over flat top hyperutectic pistons
906 vortec heads xe274 cam kit
proffesional products crosswind intake
3310 750 holley which I got at a swap meet for $60
double roller chain
700r4 with s10 4.3 converter will give me a nice streetable stall
3.73 gears with posi already installed
and so on ..

its my first build...lol

bluers91

Good idea to keep it in the safe range. Also, its probably not wise to run the higher lift if your heads weren't setup with screw in studs or at least pinned.

bluers91

Which locks did you use with the LS6 springs? Were you able to use the stock Vortec locks?

3rdgenmaro

iTrader: (9)

yes. I just reused the locks I had.

d_stack

thanks for the info im going to do the same thing appreciate this bro 4 real

3rdgenmaro

iTrader: (9)

no problem, glad it has helped some people

3rdgenmaro

iTrader: (9)

I need to work on my updates alittle better.

I installed a set of Scorpion Full Roller Self Aligning Narrow Body rocker arms. They work great, great price, built in USA, and easily fit under the stock valve covers.

I never really worked all the bugs out of the system last year at the drag strip. Ive been trying to learn the correct way to tune a holley carb. I think, that with the help I have been given from people on this site, that I have a good grasp on how to get everything right.

I will also add that Champion RS14YC plugs so far have been working great. They are just as short as the Accel Shortie Plugs at a much lower cost. Be sure that with vortec heads you run a .708 reach plug! The previous owner of my car had a regular reach plug in it. Vortecs use .708 reach plugs!

86LG4Bird

iTrader: (1)

Subscribed.
I'm doing a similar build using the old Vortec longblock from my truck, but with a ZZ4 cam. Not a rebuild; I plan to just replace rod bearings, timing chain or set, and oil pump.
.015 head gaskets, and may mill the heads for more CR.
Cheap valvetrain upgrade: LT4 springs, ghetto retainer grind, used RR's 1.6 I /1.5 E.
Will be putting this in the Firebird using the stock CC Qjet.

Fast92RS

iTrader: (2)

I am currently building a 97 vortec 350 as well for a future project. I have all the parts I need including the LS6 springs except for the cam. If I stick to a cam that has a max lift of .480" with 1.5 rockers do I need to use the ST2015 valve seals or can I use the stock ones that came with my rebuild kit?

3rdgenmaro

iTrader: (9)

I would try the ones you have and measure the clearance you have with them. I dont know much about the seals. I just used what I was told and it has worked.

If the motor is out, I would have a machinist cut the guides down.

Fast92RS

iTrader: (2)

Well I took your advice. Since I had the engine all apart anyway. I took the heads and block to a machine shop to have them cleaned and asked how much to machine the guides. They told me $30 so I had them do it and install new seals for $20 more. So now I am looking for a lt4 hot cam and will use the 1.6 roller rockers I have.

mikeoguz

iTrader: (3)

HP!? ESTIMATION IF POSSIBLE.. IM CURIOUS IN THIS

3rdgenmaro

iTrader: (9)

I hate to try to put a number to it, but an educated guess would be 290-305 rwhp. Maybe a bit more. Could be a bit less.

It runs great for being a stock motor with just a cam swap and roller rockers. It has surprised several people in that aspect.

Fast92RS

iTrader: (2)

Got my lt4 cam and now I can start to assemble the block and heads. I cant wait to here this thing run.

godreject

iTrader: (1)

from what site, who has the cheapest price?

3rdgenmaro

iTrader: (9)

Cheapest I found was through summit.

novaderrik

the HOT cam kit and vortec heads is an awesome combo.. i built an engine with just that combo back before anyone else had figured it out yet (spring of 2000) to put in my 71 Nova.. when i first put it in, the car had the stock TH350 trans and 2.56 gears and the car was a blast to drive.. then i upgraded to 3.70 gears and it really woke up.. but when i got the T10 4 speed in it the car just woke up.. it would idle silky smooth at 700 rpm with 17" of vacuum and pull hard to 7200 when i wanted it to. it was my summer daily driver and would average 17mpg and ran all day on 89 octane gas despite having a 10:1 compression ratio.. i really liked that combo..

it would do 8.7 second passes all night long at the closest 1/8 mile drag strip, spinning the tires like hell thru first gear due to the car being set up more for handling than all out straight line acceleration and crossing the line at the top end of 2nd gear.. i really wanted some 4.10 gears just so i could shift into third and get more speed out of it, but i was also trying to save up my pennies for a TKO 500 trans to offset the deeper gears..

a few months after i built my engine, Chevy High Performance did a similar build- they used an Edelbrock Victor single plane and 750DP carb in place of the Performer and quadrajet i had and they dynoed it at 410hp. the 67 Chevelle they put it in had an auto trans and ran low 12's in the 1/4 mile at something like 110mph.. if anyone asked, i always just said that i made 400 "magazine" hp and maybe 380 "real" hp. honestly, it was as much power as i can ever envision needing and it was easy enough to live with day to day that i wasn't afraid to drive it anywhere at any time.

Lmancha96

So with the guides cut down a bit you were able to install the 1.6's without a problem & get a higher lift out of the cam? Just curious since the O.P said he could'nt add the 1.6's because there was'nt enough clearance....

I'm working on the same set-up for my car, only I'll be doing it with a stealthram....

@ O.P, have you done anything else to it as of late? Anymore visits to the track? & what kind of exhaust are you running on your 3rdgen?Headers?

THX

Damon

The mods listed above should be more than enough clearance for the HotCam and 1.6 rockers. The question with stock heads is if the pushrod holes bind against the pushrods with the higher ratio rockers. Some do, some don't. Remember that higher ratio rockers get their higher ratio by moving the pushrod cup on the underside of the rocker arm closer to the fulcrum. This can cause binding issues with some stock heads, including Vortecs.

3rdgenmaro

iTrader: (9)

Nothing in awhile. No recent track trips. Fixed the A/C and daily drove it during the summer.

Shorty headers, no cat, 80 series

avangeline

Awesome sounding budget build 3rdgenmaro.

ogg__666

hey any updates ? i was thinking lt1 or lt4 cam with stealth ram intake and a port job on the vortec heads . thanks guys

fstarocka

thinking of doing this in my 77 camaro after wiping 15 lobed under 3k miles. I already have the vortec swap on my engine with springs/ etc, so just need to swap motors / heads / cam and change distributor gear on HEI.

Will my stock water pump be fine? Heard about some little seep hole or something - is that a different engine?

3rdgenmaro

iTrader: (9)

That is on the later vortec blocks. Recirulation hole. You dont have to worry about that with the older block.

86LG4Bird

iTrader: (1)

As 3rdgen said, you should be okay if only running Vortec heads.

With my complete Vortec engine and stock 3rd Gen WP, I drilled a 1/8" hole in the thermostat. Without the hole, it would suck the upper radiator hose shut when blipping the throttle on a cold engine (thermostat closed).

fiveoformula

Ive been researching springs today, was comparing the GM part number you gave with the comp cams number from a car-craft build.
Oddly enough on summits website, it says the spring you used isnt a "beehive" style, this must be a mistake right?
http://www.summitracing.com/compare

As long as they are Beehive style, Ill order them, just look at the price difference over the comp cams springs that supposedly achieve the same retainer to guide clearance!

3rdgenmaro

iTrader: (9)

Yes they are beehive. Says it in part description as well.

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/nal-12499224

And for discussion on yellow vs blue LS6 springs, (no difference)

http://ls1tech.com/forums/generation...e-springs.html

fiveoformula

Thanks, So I recently started having an oil burning/smoke issue also.
about 5k on these valve seals and I can now see thru some of the valve springs and can tell that some of the intake seals are squished. also found some material in my oil filter that was the same blue color as my seals. The machine shop sold me my valve springs and while the heads where off I had the guides cut lower and still somehow having a clearance issue (as far as I can see).
That being said im checking my install hieght and trying to figure out whats going on, may want to get the beehive springs to fix the issue.
any tips on checking my "retainer to guide" clearance?

Oh, and this is on a vortec 5.7 with 062s roller lunati cam 211/219 @ .050" duration, .505" in/.515" ex lift

3rdgenmaro

iTrader: (9)

Just get a set of digital calipers and check it.

Spaceboy1980

iTrader: (6)

Here are my stock vortec heads from retainer to seal:



I put a Alex's parts spring kit on mine for the LT4 hot cam.

fiveoformula

Thanks for the visual.
I guess what im looking for is cam lift + .020-.030" to make up when the valve is fully open?