TxTtopZ

So I talked to Don at Engine Quest yesterday about messing with 305's and he brought a new cylinder head to my attention I have not heard about, but some of you may have.
It is the new Vortec hybrid line "CH350 G and H" which debuted at SEMA this year.
Basically these heads are a hybrid vortec that are based of the 447HP 350 vortec head used in the "447HP for less than $3500" build by PHR magazine. The hybrid part comes from the typical port locations and sizes as well as 87-95 intake manifold bolt pattern (CH350G) or 69-86 classic Chevy style intake manifold bolt pattern (CH350H). They have fastburn chambers like the 062 and 906's with thicker decks and are said by Don to flow somewhere in the 230 range intake and 160 range exhaust. So basically the same as the original EQ vortec.
This is a great idea, and truly allows someone to get all the benefits of a Vortec head without switching to a costly intake to make it work. The thing that makes these different from other versions which are said to have that feature are heat riser passages which will allow you to retain your original EGR equipment if you have to deal with emissions. I am not sure if they have received a California Air and Resources Board or CARB EO number yet but regardless they should save a fair amount of cash vs going to regular vortec heads and intake.

I think if someone were building a hot 305, these heads would be the way to go since all your would have to do is mill them a little (cheap) and then bolt them on (all tho I would give them a minor clean up, and maybe port the TPI intake before I bolted them on). It works out to a little over 300 each, bare I think.

dimented24x7

iTrader: (2)

Sounds like the trickflow super-23s, which are basically aluminum vette heads with vortec chambers. I have a set, and like them alot. They make good power and have near 100% volumetric efficiency through the RPM range with a good cam, by my measurements. I think they flow a little more than what you have posted.

If a similar head is available as a cheaper cast-iron version, Id say go for it. The vortec chambers are fairly efficient from a combustion standpoint.

TxTtopZ

So the TFS heads have the heat riser passages? I guess they would... Those flow numbers came from Don of EQ himself. Apparently EQ's flow numbers show up a little less than on others flow benches, so you are probably right.

dimented24x7

iTrader: (2)

The 175/195s do have the heat riser passages. They also are available with smaller 56 CC chambers w/stock sized valves for smaller bore applications. As they are an alum. head, the bare castings are a bit more. Around 450 a piece. Still a good deal for the money, though.

mlynch001

I am running EQ CH350F (CC170BA) heads on a 85 305. 64 cc chambers, 1.9375/1.5 valves, .030 over, -.022 deck, .019 shim gaskets calculates out to 9.4 to 1 CR. Plenty for my application. The only issue is that these heads use a large intake port an the stock GM TPI base will not cover the ports. I had mine welded up and then port matched the intake to the heads. This is a major issue so check carefully before you make the jump. The heads are excellent pieces, regardless! Ports are beautiful and smooth as cast. All the machined surfaces are PERFECT! Screw in studs and guide plates are required. Flow numbers are excellent when compared to the stock 305 parts! When you get it all together, it is hard to tell it from stock except for the raised valve cover rails! Mine are painted Hi Temp "Cast Aluminum" and look really expensive! They are a bargain!

TxTtopZ

Good to know information there! I especially appreciate the shim gasket tip, which would keep the machining costs down. How many hours would you say you put in to the intake? If you paid, how much to have it done did it cost you? The good thing about this is you can use them on a later 350 build without worrying about thick head gaskets... Just bolt them on.
Last but not least, how is the power? Did you notice anything? What other mods do you have? I appreciate it.

Dimented: I now the TFS 305 heads are nice, but I dont think spending that much on aluminum heads for a 305 that mild is worth it. Maybe if it had some serious parts in it... BTW: Are you running a 305?

dimented24x7

iTrader: (2)

No, 350. But yeah, with a 305 and the smaller valves, the scale tips the other way for the TFS heads as there are many others now that will deliver the same for less, especially if you use a stock head as the base for your build-up. Obviously I didnt bring them up as a be all-end all, more to show that other manufacturers also have hybrid type head designs to suite the older non-vortec applications.

TxTtopZ

Just got an email from Don over at EQ and the deal is the CH350F heads Mylynch001 is running have different ports than the Ch350 G/H heads. The g/h versions should not need ANY tampering with the intake.

Dimented24/7: Anyone who helps get the facts out is always welcome!

mlynch001

I had a good friend do the welding and I did the machine work to smooth out the welds and match the ports. About 6-8 hours of work on the ports and dressing up the welds. I am not sure whether the G and H type heads use the larger ports, but when I bought mine those heads did not exist. The F model has 170cc intake ports and 1.9375 intake and 1.5 exhaust. It uses a 1205 Fel Pro intake gasket (if I remember correctly). I would absolutely defer to Don at EQ on the ports. All I can say is that even with the extra work of the intake, I would do it all again, the EQ heads are a SUPER Value Item! The other nice thing about the F model, is it will work equally well on a 350.

The shim gasket is critical to making this engine combination VERY resistant to detonation. The .040 quench distance creates good turbulence and tumble in the chamber. I have built many engines using this rule of thumb, and they all seem to have the same resistance to detonation. Until I am shown evidence to the contrary I am shooting for .040 quench on anything I build. The fact that my LG4 came with OEM steel shim gaskets and the same quench clearance, also made that choice a natural.

The Shim gasket is not for use on rough or uneven surfaces or in ultra-high compression applications. I like them because they absolutely DO NOT require re-torque! All that "No Re-torque" BS is just that. I have tried several of those so called NO Re-torque gaskets and they just do not hold torque. Some loose less torque load than others, but they still loose torque. They ARE NOT Bad gaskets, just very inconvenient! I do not have the luxury of re-torquing once the engine is installed and the car is run without taking a bunch of stuff off to perform the re-torque. I am not going to spend hours , dis-assembling a brand new install to re-torque the heads! That is my 2 cents! I know that many will disagree, but unless they want to come do the re-torque work for free, that is how I will build my engines.

Finally, as far as power goes, it has GOT TO BE night and day over the worn out stock 85 LG4! I am still fabricating on the exhaust system, a few brackets and other things, so I have not yet drive the thing. It starts, runs and sounds really tough with open headers. Throttle response is superb, crisp and really snappy! No starting issues either, cranks up in one turn or less, every time. Not rich, exhaust smells just a hint of fuel when starting and after it goes closed loop, you almost cannot smell it running! Keep in mind I am running an untuned AXXB Chipset on a 7730 ECM, so the tune has not been optimized for the engine combination. The goal was to get the car converted to TPI and just make it run! So I am thrilled as to how well it does run for a stock chip!

I am guessing that I am going to see about 250 - 270 RWHP. I can give you the complete (long) list of details if you like.

TxTtopZ

I would like to see the list, sure.

250hp at the wheels would put you somewhere over 325hp at the crank, which is what I am shooting for as well, and personally, is why I am not going to build a 383 for this power level.

I am in process of tearing down the stock LB9 to see if its in decent enough shape before I commit to spending any $$.

Thanks for the info, I appreciate that, all in all it looks like I can either port the 416's and try my hand there, or, I can get the CH350H's if all the numbers add up for compression and quench. I do not have the heads off therefor I have no idea how far the piston is in the hole but I am sure its .015"-.025" somewhere.

mlynch001

250 at the wheels is just shy of 300 at the crank with a good tight transmission. I figured 17% loss so, 250 puts me at about 290. Either way, my primary concern was to keep the OEM Original engine, get reasonable fuel economy and prove that you did not need a 350 to make good power! I believe in BRAIN POWER much more than Cubic Dollars! My first plan was to build 305 with a 3.75 stroker crank (331), but the dollars came into play! Plus the 305 put less demands on the stock TPI setup and their limited airflow.

Goals were:

1. 250 RWHP
2. Improved Combustion efficiency
3. Reduced internal friction
4. Improved Fuel mileage
5. Stop all the oil leaking and burning with the worn out engine.
6. Convert to TPI from computer controlled Carburetor.
7. Maintain "stock" appearance under the hood. Needed it to look like GM Built it!
8. Improve durability, drivability and reduce maintenance issues.
9. Keep the OEM ,Numbers matching engine block for originality.
10. Improve vehicle performance without building a "cookie cutter" engine.


What I have:

1985 LB4 305 block, crank and rods (all original from the El Camino)
.030 over (167,000 miles)
KB Hypereutectic Superstock pistons -.022 deck 2 valve reliefs .002clearance.
Sealed Power Moly Rings, Hand gapped per KB Instructions.
Standard 305 crank, micro polished and balanced. .002 oil clearance mains & rods. (167,000 miles and STILL High side Standard!)
Standard Clevite 77 mains and rods.
FM full round cam bearings, indexed.
Melling HV oil pump (60 PSI Relief)
Stock 5 quart oil pan with GM Windage tray.
One Piece oil pan gasket
1996 L31 GM Roller Cam (free, Used) .440/.450 lift 255/266 duration (I/E).
GM Single row roller chain (HD Truck part) cam advanced 4 degrees.
3.1 GM Roller tappets
350 tappet spider and dog bones (free, Used)
Block modified for Roller tappet cam and lifters (OEM Flat tappet engine)
Cam gallery oil returns are vent piped and screened.
L98 Oil to water oil cooler
EQ CH350F Vortec Hybrid heads. 170 cc intake ports, 64cc chambers no heat crossover, 1.9375 - 1.500 EV21 swirl polished S/S valves Std length.
GM positive oil seals on intake and umbrella seals on exhaust
ZZ4 GM valve springs installed at stock ZZ4 height
OEM valve retainers and hardened 7 degree locks on all valves (rotators are eliminated)
L98 Magnesium Valve covers.
340 Dodge 4130 Hardened Pushrods (to compensate for the taller lifters)
GM guide plates and studs.
1.6 stainless steel full roller rockers Intake and Exhaust
86 Firebird TPI base, runners, plenum and throttle body. All stock but runners are enlarged and all gasket matched. Modified to fit the EQ CH350F Intake ports. Welded and ported to gasket match.
Throttle Body Airfoil
EGR Blocked/Eliminated
7730 ECM
AXXB EPROM Assy GM 16163062
GM Temp, knock and TP Sensors.
Injection Technologies TPI Conversion Harness
200-4R transmission 1989 model 10 vane pump, pinless accumulators, shift kit and modified governor.
1800 RPM OEM "HIGH STALL" Converter
3.42 7.625 gears
6 plate Trans cooler series mounted w/radiator cooler
F Body Edelbrock Headers (modified to fit G Body).
2 1/2" Collector back exhaust with Turbo Mufflers and H pipe.
1" core Aluminum Extra cooling radiator
Mark 8 Cooling fan (replaced OEM mechanical fan) w/FAL Fan controller
91 Trans Am Cold Air intake kit.
19 lb. Series 3 Bosch Injectors (Ford 4.6)
250 LPH In Tank Pump (converted tank sender to accept the pump)
45 psi fuel pressure (no vacuum)
GM HEI with ECM Controlled advance
Bosch Platinum plugs
BW plug wires.
AC Delco Melonized Distributor gear for Roller cam.
4000 pulse Painless VSS
F41 Anti-Roll bars and frame braces.
SSB 4 wheel disc brakes

TxTtopZ

[quote=mlynch001;4694528]250 at the wheels is just shy of 300 at the crank with a good tight transmission. I figured 17% loss so, 250 puts me at about 290. Either way, my primary concern was to keep the OEM Original engine, get reasonable fuel economy and prove that you did not need a 350 to make good power! I believe in BRAIN POWER much more than Cubic Dollars! My first plan was to build 305 with a 3.75 stroker crank (331), but the dollars came into play! Plus the 305 put less demands on the stock TPI setup and their limited airflow.

1996 L31 GM Roller Cam (free, Used) .440/.450 lift 255/266 duration (I/E).
GM Single row roller chain (HD Truck part) cam advanced 4 degrees.
3.1 GM Roller tappets
350 tappet spider and dog bones (free, Used)
Block modified for Roller tappet cam and lifters (OEM Flat tappet engine)
Cam gallery oil returns are vent piped and screened.
heat crossover, 1.9375 - 1.500 EV21 swirl polished S/S valves Std length.
ZZ4 GM valve springs installed at stock ZZ4 height
OEM valve retainers and hardened 7 degree locks on all valves (rotators are eliminated)
340 Dodge 4130 Hardened Pushrods (to compensate for the taller lifters)
GM guide plates and studs.
1.6 stainless steel full roller rockers Intake and Exhaust


Nice! Very well thought out plan, you should do well.
I have read a few articles about doing roller cams in non roller blocks and this seems like an idea I should look into being I have an L31 sitting on the garage floor with roller cam, lifters, spider tray, etc.
Did you drill the block and weld some tapped bosses for the spider tray? Who sells the kit?

Why 200R4?

I have been looking into converters as well and everyone almost suggests Precision Industries... Well, let me tell you about PI "Stallion" tq. converters. for the Mustangs.
They are great for the 1st 3-6mo. then the bands fail leading to no holding power. Many of these converters were sent back to PI or sent to Circle D for a rebuild.
I wont do B&M, there have been MANY changes in the industry in the past 10 years and B&M lists none of them.
TCI looks okay, but I have never heard of anyone using one!
There are others but I have only seen Hughes being utilized with some success.

mlynch001

Thanks!

First, the roller conversion was done for two reasons:
1. I wanted to keep the OEM block AND I wanted a roller cam for reduced friction.
2. I wanted to prove that it could be done. I see so many people making cracks about "ghetto" on this swap! They are all FULL of BS. Most have never done ANYTHING "outside the box". I am from the "old school" of hot rodders where we HAD to make things work, we could not go to Jegs or Summit and buy ready built stuff. We had to be smarter than the catalogs that we were looking at! My hero in the hot rod world is Smokey Yunick, who was likely the best "Southern Engineer" who ever lived. No one laughs at Smokey now! Most of his "ghetto" engineering was proved to be right on the money 40 years later!

The trick with the roller swap is too keep the lobe lift reasonable and do not try to use "reduced" base circle cams. The lifters are too short and will not seal the oil gallery when the valves are closed.

There are three things that need to be done to prep the block for the swap.

1. Spot face, drill and tap three holes and pads on the center gallery casting of the block. I used 8 mm X 1.25 studs (high strength = grade 8 US) and epoxied the studs into the block to seal. spacers under the spider set the correct height. Take care not to use too long a bolt or the oil flow could be restricted. My studs DO NOT extend into the oil gallery. All these bolts do is hold the dog bones in place, there is almost NO load on them. Not like they are holding the heads or crank in place!

2. Spot face the tops of the lifter bores for a flat surface that is square with the lifter bore.

3. Drill and countersink 4 holes through the cam retainer plate and drill and tap 4 corresponding holes in the front of the block to attach the thrust plate. Do not use too long of screws or too deep of holes because you will break into the annular groove. Breaking into the groove in not a big deal. Using too long of screws will block the groove and may cause reduced oil flow to the front main bearing and # 1 rod!

The difference in height between the OEM Flat tappets and the 3.1 Roller tappets is .315" so a 7.500 pushrod (340 dodge) is perfect.

After that, all you do is bolt the thing together, check for any clearance issues.

The Lifter "Dog Bones" do occasionally require some minor grinding so that they will flush up with the tops of the lifter bores. Depends on how much your spot face was able to reach on top of the lifter bores.

I run with 1 turn preload on the lifters, just to center the lifter plunger.

I bought all the stuff off of E-bay. Less than $200 bucks in the cam, spider,lifters, pushrods and hardware. About 8 - 10 hours of work to do the fitting and what not on the block. It may be "Ghetto" but it works!

Why a 200-4R?

First: Because it is the best transmission! GM ran almost 300 horsepower through them STOCK, on Turbo GNX Buicks. The transmission can be modified to handle in excess of 800 horsepower.
Second: The gear ratios are perfect and are a true close ratio gearbox. 700-R4 has a very low first gear and a very high overdrive, it is a wide ratio gearbox. I do not like the gear spread on the 700, especially the super low first gear.
Third: The 200-4R is lighter and absorbs less power.
Fourth: No drive shaft cutting! No yoke change. No cobbled up linkage.
Fifth: 200-4R was an OEM transmission for G Bodies, so it looks stock.

Since I was going with a near stock power level, I got a rebuilt (In the USA) DACCO Torque converter from a highly recommended local trans shop. GM offered three stock stall levels for stock converter on the 200-4R and I picked the highest one. I am not building a drag car, so a more expensive converter was not needed. DACCO seems to do a good job and I have used there products in the past without issues.

Again, this build was not intended for the strip, just to explore what was Possible with the 305 on a shoestring budget. I am not going to turn the engine over 5200 rpm, so really expensive rods and crank was not an issue. I wanted a great running street car and daily driver. I also wanted to get reasonable fuel mileage on Regular pump gas. I think that my combination will be perfectly suited for those goals. I will post updates as soon as I hit the road and update my tuning as I get the car zeroed in.

Mortorq

Is it true that these EQ #CH350H "hybrid heads" have a ramp in the bowl like the '187 "swirlies" LO3?
If so, I thought that ramp was very resrictive.

mlynch001

I do not think so. I used CH350F EQ heads on my 305. Picture attached.