Lol ok I got timing issues, so what do you suggest in a no start situation...advance the timing or retard it??? Cause the whole top dead center gig is not kicking off...

 

you need to get it in the balpark atleast. taking out #1 plug and spinning the engine till you feel air coming out and then making sure that points to #1 wire will get you in the ball park. ignore the timing mark for now.

 

Tell me if I'm wrong, so ima turn the engine by hand with #1 plug removed, feel for air coming out of the hole. When I feel the air I should then place something in the whole to let me know when the piston is all the way at the top...now should I be setting w/ the piston on the way up or directly at the start of the exhaust stroke?

 

it quite possible it jumped timing as well, how many miles are on the motor?

 

you stick a finger in the hole pluging it. itll only build pressure when it on the compression stroke. just turn it by hand till you feel the compression then check that the rotor points to #1 wire. it should be close enough to tdc to start.

 

The motor is a crate motor from year one, I haven't even broke the engine in yte truthfully...ihad it for almost 5 years and now its here dead smh

 

Alright...I done tried everything from advancing the time, to TDC, to you name it and there's still no kind of attempt to start still getting my reliable backfire tho...correct me if I'm wrong but when does a backfire happen? I know its due to being out of time, is because the spark happens on the exhaust stroke or what?...Can fouled spark plugs cause backfiring, what issues with fuel can cause backfiring

 

depends on where is backfiring. if its backfiring into the exhaust its sparking on the exhaust stroke. of its poping out of the intake, then its sparking on the intake stroke.
you need to absoluetly verify TDC to get make sure the timing isnt off. try pulling the plug and getting on the compression stroke as mentioned earlier, but then stick something in the plug hole (not something what will fall all the way in) and turn the engine over by hand until you see whatever you stick in rise out of the hole. once it rises to its peak and starts to go back down, youre pretty much on tdc. check and see where the timing mark is and the rotor points once again, if all that is were it needs to be, then check the rockers to make sure both are fully closed. if theyre not both fully closed then your cam timing is off, or youre on the exhaust stroke.

 

FYI
Aligning the rotor to point at the #1 cylinder is from when the distributor had a vacuum canister. This position locates the canister about half way from bumping into something at either extreme. This gives more room for adjustment if you don't try to get everything to align as close as possible. The more closely you get the #1 on the Cap, rotor, dampener mark, and Timing Tab Zero to align on the #1 piston compression stroke the less you'll need to turn the distributor when setting the timing, besides everything needs a point of reference.

This is from my experience and it is the procedure I use to set the timing. I always remove all the spark plugs, and disable the fuel system until I ready to actually set the timing.
So, the thing to remember about removing the distributor is that it also turns the oil pump.
As you know the distributor has a flat blade on the end of the shaft that engages the oil pump shaft.
Unless you align the pump shaft slot with a long screwdriver with where you think the distributor will engage the oil pump when it's fully seated and the rotor is pointing at whatever position you want it at, before dropping in the distributor more than likely it won't be aligned with the oil pump and the rotor location of your choice, assuming you've turned the engine without regard to #1 piston compression TDC and distributor rotor position.

The thing to do before unlocking the distributor and removing it, is to remove the distributor cap, rotate the engine clockwise manually, or by bumping the starter until the rotor is pointing where you want it then remove the distributor completely.This way it will drop back in in the same position and aligned with the oil pump.

When positioning the rotor ignore want stroke the #1 piston is in.

In view of your engine current condition I seriously doubt the chain has jumped, or that you have a plastic cam timing chain gear, or that the harmonic dampener has slipped unless the crate engine came without one and you're still using the 20 odd year old one that was on the old engine.
When you feel pressure on you finger (or however you plug the hole to get compression) from the #1 piston as you turn it manually, continue to turn it until the dampener mark aligns with the zero on the tab, this is the #1 piston's TDC of it's compression stroke.
Now install the distributor so that the rotor points to your chosen position, this position and 180 degrees from it are the only 2 positions where the distributor will fully seat to the manifold. Install distributor cap, with #1 on the cap aligned to the rotor, lock it down. Install the spark plugs make all your electrical connections, Whether the timing is advanced electronically, or by vacuum, timing advance must be disabled before setting initial Timing.

Add a bit of starter fluid, and fire it up. If it starts enable the fuel system, start it and let it warm up a bit then set the timing, tighten down the distributor lock check timing again adjust as necessary and enable the timing advance.

 

i just said align the rotor to the #1 plug wire, not the #1 cylinder...

 

Travis401,
I was responding to the OPs reply #57. I should have quoted him, I wasn't trying to correct anyone.
Because of the backfiring I wasn't sure baseline timing was even close.

3rdGenMess, what combustion is happening is escaping through a partially open valve. I can only suggest a new set of inexpensive plugs gapped at .035" A lot of cranking with the fuel spraying and not starting will by now have fouled the plugs. This is the reason I disable fuel and use start fluid sparing as to not foul the plugs.
As I said before, from what you've said about the engine being as far as I'm concerned "new" it should lite up with very little fuel if timing & spark is good. I'm assuming sufficient compression, and spark (no fouled plugs) leaving the timing as suspect. My diagnosis is only as good as the information provided, so use what you can and ignore anything that says you're wrong when you know you're right.

Regards, Raul.
And, I don't mean you intentionally gave bad information, not at all, you may be missing something that someone else might catch if they were there. Then, again might not.

 

ah, its all good. the rotor can point anywhere in the 360* rotation, as long as its pointing at the post that has the #1 wire on it when the #1 pistons is at TDC on the compression stroke. and the firing order is correct follwing that point.

 

That's what is bothering me, everything seems correct, but if that's true he would be driving it by now, so something isn't as we think it should be, wish I was there.

 

Makes sense rgarcia...so ummm how'd you cut off the fuel????...do excuse, my ignorance to the subject. I'm by far no mechanic nor engine technician, I'm kind of learning along the way, I bought this engine a while back from yearone and paid ridiculously for it, so of course I'm going by all means to save it before I put it on craigslist lol. But its murdering my nerves right now because I've tried everything possible and I can not get this thing to ignite for one rotation...

 

you can pull the fuel pump fuse. its under the hood near the battery in its own holder with a red and orange wire.

 

I'm using a mechanical fuel pump on my set up...trying to avoid breaking that gasket to
the rod

 

Well, even if it's carbed and it's a '90 the fuel pump should be an in the tank electric. just remove the fuel pump relay. Correct this if I'm assuming incorrectly. After you disable the fuel pump pull the plugs whether they're new or not, crank it enough to blow all the residue fuel out. Put new plugs, from here until it starts don't press the gas pedal, just use the starting fluid.
Tell us if the plugs are fouled, post pictures of them if you're not sure.
what carb do you have OEM, Computer controlled? or aftermarket?

 

did you remove the intank pump. or are using a return style mechanical pump as a regulator? with a non computer controlled carbed engine you have to either drop the tank and remove the intank pump, or use a return style regulator, or a return style mechanical fuel pump (acts as a regulator). if its a non CC carb then you need a vaccum advance distributor as well.

 

I have an aftermarket carb...holley street avenger, a friend of mine told me they weren't worth the cheap plastic gaskets used to seal them and its true...but a carb is still a carb. I'm not currently working on the car as of the moment but ill have pictures posted soon, and that fuse could be the reason my intank pump is inoperable now...but when I get back out there ill pull the plugs and bump the engine as well...I pulled them, before I tried starting and 4 of the 8 were darkened on the insulator if I'm not mistaken, I have a new set of 8 in a box ready to install I'm just want be sure that its the plugs before I go buy another 8, I jus bought the ones I'm using now

 

ditch the mech pump, get a block off plate, and get a return style regulator if the intank pump works. if its dead, you need to drop the tank, remove it, and fab a carb pickup in its place. theres a sticky at the top of the carb section here on exactly how to do that.

 

Yea...I had all that in mind, but then this happend so I pretty much reallotted all my upgrade funds to trying to fix a "what seemed to be simple" problem...right now this engine issue is stalling all other progress, I'm trying to repaint it and reupholster my interior but if the car can't move then I can progress...fed up with it

 

pull the fuel pump fuse, and pop the intake line of the mech pump. then try replacing the plugs and trying to get it started on the starting fluid while messing with the timing. with the balancer lined up on the 0 mark, are both #1 cylinder rockers fully closed?

 

When I look at them they are even across the top after the intake stroke and remain the same on the compression stroke...I pull the dizzy cap and the rotor is nearing the #1 spark plug. I turn a little further by hand til it lines up on the zero on timing marker...I verifiied that this is top dead using the clothes hanger trick, I replace spark plug and turn it over and the first sign I hear of ignition is a backfire but no start...now I did pull the timing cover to see if my chain was stretched I took pictures and got a reply that the tiny slack I had in my chain was ok..so should I try to compensate for that slack in the chain while setting intial timing?

 

a little slack isnt gonna cause it to be that far off. with the timing cover off and the mark at zero, were are the alignment dots on the cam gear and crank gear?

 

Well its back on now but they were...hold on ill draw a quick picture of them...

 

Not the best drawing but its readable I hope

 

was that how they were pointing with the distrubutor pointing at #1?

 

You know I didn't even bother to check when I had it off...but if I'm not mistaking aren't they supposed to be pointing in the same direction...I.e. if the crank is at 12 then the cam should be at 12 correct...if I'm wrong then I know there in the right position, they just weren't at tdc #1 when I looked at them

 

yea, the cam anc crank both pointing at 12 oclock is TDC on #1 compression stroke, with the crank gear at 12 and the cam gear at 6, its TDC on the exhaust stroke

 

That further let's me know that it isnt or is a slight chance its a timing issue...but for some reason I. Seriously doubt that fouled plugs will cause backfiring unless they aren't completely fouled and only igniting when there is too much fuel

 

On another note, when I disconnect the fuel inlet, is it possible to foul plugs with dry spark??

 

back firing will only happen if the spark hits before the valves close, which is a timing issue. which side it backfires out of lets you know which valve is still open when its sparking. honestly from everything youre saying, is sounds like its 180* off. i know you keep checking and rechecking, but it keeps backfiring (im assuming from the exhaust). 180* off will have the engine sparking when the piston is at or near TDC with the exhaust valve open.

heres a lesson on the 4 stroke internal combustion engine:

stroke 1: intake, the intake valve opens and the piston starts moving down the bore, causing a vacuum, which sucks air and fuel into the bore. the intake valve then closes before the piston reaches the botom of the stroke

stroke 2: compression, the piston starts moving up the bore with both valves closed causing the air/fuel mixture to compress. then when it reaches TDC (or BTDC for whatever * you have it advanced) the spark plug fires.

stroke #3: power, the resulting explosion from stroke #2 forces the piston back down the bore.

stroke #4: exhaust, the piston moves back up the bore as the exhaust valve opens, forcing the burnt fuel and air out of the exhaust port. and the cycle starts over.

 

if the distributor spends the spark at the wrong time the fuel explodes at the wrong time, reaking havoc on the cycle. also if the cam and crank arent properly synced then the valves are opening at the wrong spots, also equally reaking havoc in the cycle.

no one has asked this yet, but are you sure the firing order on the distributor is right?

 

No fuel, no foul.

 

Fouling prevents a proper spark, or no spark, if a plug is severely fouled it won't spark at all. Disabling the fuel doesn't eliminate the fuel pooled at the floor of the intake manifold. Depending on the ambient temperature the fuel that has pooled in the manifold will take time to evaporate, if you try to crank it, it will pull in vapors which will ignite, but not enough to start.
As to your timing statement and drawing, you show the dots approaching 12 o'clock when the rotor is almost under the #1. That's ok because the spark actually happens when the rotor breaks contact when it passes the #1 terminal, by then both dots should be at 12 o'clock.
If the mechanical timing is correct and sufficient compression is developed, applying proper spark at TDC, or even several degrees before should get it to start.

My last paragraph is in general what Travis is stating in detail.
So his question about timing (firing order) is very relevant at this time (pun intended.)

 

Wow what a looong thread, only just came across it, just have to add my 2 cents.

You got backfiring, therefore you have fuel and spark. Valve timing gotta be right - it a 'new' crate motor - okay could be set wrong from Year One tho unlikely I would think.

More likely - I agree with Travis et al, the ign timing (as opposed to valve timing) is still incorrect. Rotor is out 180 deg, or otherwise too far off the right firing point, or wire order is wrong. 3rdGenMess - why did you start messing with the dizzy anyway - assume it already set right when you bought the motor?

 

Alright, right now I have my wiring set up to a standard 350 which is if im not mistaking 1,8,4,3,6,5,7,2 or something like that I read a diagram when I set it up so I'm very sure I'm wired correctly...so if I'm wired correctly getting fuel and spark could I have another firing order...I think I'm going to have to pull my covers and watch all my valves

 

18436572 is standard SBC.

 

Looking down at the distributor cap did you connect them in clockwise order? 1,3,5, & 7 on driver's side, 2,4,6, & 8 on the passenger side.

 

this might help

 

Yea there on there clockwise, all this knowledgable info I'm receiving the only thing I haven't done was tried changing spark plugs and compression testing...and that's probably where my issue is laying...can too much fuel cause your rings to burn or wear...what can cause a valve to not completely close?

 

Yep Travis this is the exact diagram I used when reinstalling my wires and plugs the first time

 

Bent valve/push rod, rounded cam lobe, broken spring, rocker arm/support. valve stem guides, any combination of these.
Compression test will help identify, but you might want to put the new plugs in, if it doesn't start with a couple of starter fluid primes, stop and do the compression test.

 

Wow that was a bit discouraging lol...from jus reading that if these spark plugs don't work looks like I may need to rebuild something only thing is I don't know what I have

 

If your Year One crate motor has a flat tappet cam read this article about why they fail.
It's probably more discouraging, but informative if you do have flat tappets, but you're not alone that's what's in my Motown 350 race block.

 

Ok that link pretty much got me upset, why the hell would they put something that ain't worth a damn in a engine and put their name on it...now I'm not sure if I have a flat tap or not...but some one did mention the possibilty of the cam being in 2 peices but that's seems a bit extreme, but this could definately be my issue if I look at tdc on the other cylinders

 

because people will buy stuff if its cheap and has a name on it, regardless of quality.

as that article stated, running a flat tappet cam isnt going to make your engine die after 5k miles. you just have to take extra care in setting everything up and breaking it in properly and ensuring you have the right oil aditives and oil supply to the right parts.

my 86 truck is a flat tappet cam and has been going for 210k miles on regular maint.

 

If you're not sure it's a flat tappet, don't get too upset it might not be one.
I visited the Year One Web Page and saw only 2 Year One 350 sbc 400hp crates for Camaro/FireBird '82-'02 both are hydraulic rollers, but they also have 5 World Products Motown 350 sbc 4-bolt main crates in 415, 427, 454 CIDs and none have roller cams. This is the block I used to biuld my 388.

 

Travis which oil do you use in the truck?

I have a 305cid '86 Silverdo with a ccc quadrajet and use Shell Rotella-T triple protection 10w30 in both truck & Camaro.

 

standard over the shelf, but i put in a zddp additive with every oil change.