Hi All,

Since I own my Camaro, this board is helping me just by reading with all the little problems I had.(thanks so far)
But now problems become bigger and I need some advice...

My car is a 1988 Camaro 305 TBI with 700r4. The main problem is the transmission, wich is not allways willing to revers. I also do not realy trust the engine, because I found unpropper installed valve locks, a bent pushrod, burned oil under the valvecovers, sealer in the valley and elsewhere it shouldent be and such things.

I don't want to repair the transmission or throw money in a bungled engine. So, my idea was to replace the transmission and the engine at one time.

For the transmission, I would buy a replacement from bowtieoverdrives. If you wuld recommend an other company, pleas tell me...

The engine I would build myself.
The targets:
-keep it stock looking
-get some performanc out of the TBI
-pass smog (I got smogtest, but the values for my car are not very restrictiv)
-decent mileage

So lets go to the parts and see if my combination would make any sense:
First the block I'm looking at:
A Chevrolet 350 4-Bolt from 96-2000
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/SUM-150100/
The rotating assembly:
An Eagle 383 kit with 5cc pockets and 5.7 rods
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/ESP-B13455L030/
And now it gets difficult, the cam:
COMP Cams 268XFI HR13
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/cca-08-466-8
The head:
Pro-Filer 23° with 185cc runner, 2.05 intake valve, 64cc camber, angeled plugs and the 0.650 lift springs
http://www.profilerperformance.com/r.../sbc-23-degree

This should be enaugh for my first post.
Thanks in advance

 

Have you checked on Craigslist, you can find deals beyond comprehension good and bad.

 

I didn' know Craigslist, but doesn't help me much, because I'm in europe. Getting used parts for cheap is almost impossible, the new ones from USA are allmost at the same price-level. Summit is just an easy way tu buy for me...


At the moment, I trie to find out wat will work togeter or not. Ok, I play with pipemax, I'm building a flowbench and I did build brake-in and store a pontiac v8 engine. This may be all cool, but in reality nothing is prooven and i'm still a novice. The two manin questions are cam and head. I don't know wat cam the TBI can handle, how many vacuum it needs etc. How many cc should an intake port have? Sellsman told me 170 to 180max but on the net I see others use bigger ones....

 

Thats real close to what Im running, except mine is a 350. The cam will make reasonable vacuum at idle, so it should work ok with the TBI, provided its properly tuned (see the DIY Prom and TBI boards for more info on upgrading the ECM and tuning). If you try to start that up with the stock ECM and TBI, odds are it wont even start. If it does, it will run so bad that it may actually trash the engine. Tuning and large injectors are in order. The best bet is to seek out a 2" TBI off of a later 93-95 truck with a BBC 454. They have upgraded injector pods with larger passages that can be run at 40-45 PSI and 150-200 lph of fuel flow, which you will need to get enough fuel to feed the engine. The stock TBI wont even come close to feeding it. It has small 45 pph injectors and 1 11/16" bores. For reference, my engine pulls close to 550 CFM at 6k as an average airflow from the mass airflow sensor. Thats the average, not the peak airflow, which will be quite a bit higher. The stock one is only good for around 350-400 CFM @ 1.5 in Hg, which will strangle the motor.

 

I have a bowtie overdrives transmission and converter and I'm very satisfied with their products.

I've got a level 3 700r4 trans and 2,400rpm stall converter. They were easy to deal with and they unit comes shipped in a wooden crate - not a card board box like some other companies do.

I had my local AAMCO deal install the unit and I've had no problems with it since then.

 

Thanks for your answers, pretty much what I hoped for

@yaj15: Is the level 3 good to drive for a daily? I drive this car a lot, so a racing transmission is not what I want... A noobish question: does the 700r4 like it to be shifted manul (hold in gear)? I see a lot of ratchet shifters in cars with no manuel valve body...

@dimented24x7: the ECM is also an issue to me. I did allways stay away from electronics but now it seems to be time to get into it. I don't kow wich route I will go, maybe ebl flash, maybe burning....

Because I can't just go to the yard ang get an old 454 TBI, I will mill my 305 to 2". I think best would be to install it on the intake, clamp all together on the mill and chip it to 2" to the flor of the plenum. If I break thru the TBI walls (and I will) I will mill it to 2.1" and selve it.

I also have to find out, if the GM intake can be prted enaugh to feed the heads. An other mothfacation on the intake could be to eliminate the waterjacket. I di read, TBI needs it for atomisation, but some runn singelplane, so I think I can do it. I also would help to avoid problems with leaks if I break thru the walls whle porting or boring the plenum.

Some questions about the pro-filer heads:
If I get the angled plugs, are the sparkplugs in good acces, if I use hooker headers 2055 ?
Is a 2.02 intake valve good, or is a 2.05 better? A bigger valve could flow a little better...
They have AL retainers with the hydro roller springs, good or bad thing?

 

[quote=t top;5437906]Thanks for your answers, pretty much what I hoped for

@yaj15: Is the level 3 good to drive for a daily? I drive this car a lot, so a racing transmission is not what I want... A noobish question: does the 700r4 like it to be shifted manul (hold in gear)? I see a lot of ratchet shifters in cars with no manuel valve body...

The level 3 700r4 is rated for over 600hp and 600 foot pounds of torque. It has a lot of hard parts to back it up. I'm never going to be at 600hp so whatever I do to my engine I'm confident that the transmission will be able to take whats coming from my engine. I've got a little over 400 pound feet of torque in my car now and this trans has no issues handling the power level that I'm at now.

http://www.bowtieoverdrives.com/cata...m.php?ITEMID=9

The transmission is very street friendly. Bowtie Overdrives transmissions are intended for the street. The shift firmness is linearly progressive. The deeper you get in to the throttle the firmer the shifts get. They aren't bang style shifts like you get with B&M (Stay away from that company - do a search on here and you'll see what I mean.) but they are positive and solid. 1-2nd gear change at full throttle the tires chirp and all the other full throttle shifts are firm and solid for the 2-3 and 3-4 gear shifts.

At regular slow speeds like around down the trans shifts very soft and its a little better than the stock transmisssion was.

You you can shift the trans manually if you want to hold a gear or accelerate while you shift you through the gears manually. The governor and tv cable control the shift timing, shift firmness and, shift points in the 700r4. It's still better to set up your trans right and let it do the work most of the time. It's going to be faster and more consistent than manually shifting all the time.

I wouldn't manually shift a stock 700r4 all the time though. That burns and fries the internal components.

Get a good quality trans fluid cooler as well. Heat is one of the top reasons automatic transmissions fail. With the added higher stall conveter you are going to create more heat. The trans fluid will be cooled better with its own individual cooler rather than passing through the radiatior.

 

Where in Europe are you? England? Germany? Somewhere else?

Chevy 350, there is a lot out there to go with. Any and all of it will work with a TBI. I would rebuild your transmission rather than buy a new one, unless you don't trust the rebuilders near you.

2.02 intake on the heads, 1.94 on the exhaust side, 64 CC chambers. 180 CC chambers would be good. Look at the AFR heads, they are probably the best to be had, though you can get a set of Vortec heads cheaper, you'll just need a vortec intake to go with it. thsoe are the best "stock heads" GM ever made, until they developed the LS motors.

for Cam, I don't know, not a "cam guy" so I can't speak to that very well.

 

@yaj15: That sounds nice! A level 3 is now on my "to buy" list. Seems like a "cool" rachet shifter is wasted money for this project. I invest it in a flex-a-lite trans cooler....

@Ozz1967:

Your "Any and all of it will work with a TBI" statement make my optimistic

I'm from Switzerland. I was at the local automatic shop, wich was recommended by frieds and seems to know his stuff. HE told me, I should get one from the USA. He would build it, but he asks 3500.- wich is the double the price of bowtieoverdrives. So it's better to get if from overseas and let him do the adjustment.

Same with the engine:
305 honing and decking: 850.-
350 fromm summit: 700$
ballancing the rotating assembly: 600.- to 1000.-
383 assembly: 750$
rebuild the heads: 1500.- (or much more if something uexpected comes up)
profiler heads: 1000$
AFR: 1500$


So I can afford the parts for a stroker, bu a decent rebuild is too much

I do not see any 1.95" exhaust valves only 1.6" ? (AFR also)
I think the AFR heads are a little to expensif for a 99% streetcar. The profiler seem to have best cc/flow/money ratio and I did not hear something bad about them. I was also considered dart of summit's own brand, but they flow less for same money at same cc...

Thanks guys, you help me a lot!

 

Sorry, 1.6.

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/afr-1040

Also, instead of building the motor from scratch,why not do this...

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/nal-12498772

Also, since you're buliding the motor, you'llneed to upgradr the TBI to match it. So...

http://www.ebay.com/itm/46mm-bored-T...e4d221&vxp=mtr

 

Thanks for the links.

A ZZ383 would be nice, but would take the fun part out of it...


Two things I read about in my books and wonder if they are still used:

1. Rhoads lifters. Avariable duration lifter could be a benefit for a streetcar, but I don't know the effects for the tune...

2. Valley vents. I would like to install them, becaus they make sense to me. Some say it's only vor race-cars, but if the oil comes back to the pan in a race, it should also wor on the street!?

 

What about one of these aftermarket TBI systems

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/hly-550-411/overview/

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/hly-550-412/overview/

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/mvc-8101/overview/

 

Rhodes lifters are used to help offset the loss of vacuum in big cam motors. They do still work but are only designed for flat-tappet cams.

 

@yaj15: They look all cool, but I would like to keep a two barrel if possible. I think, if a 454 can be fed with the 2" TBI, a 383 should no problem with right injektors. What I don't know is how big the bores should be. After mesuring, I think I can go to 48mm or even bigger with sleves.

I'd prefer to machine it myselfe, just because I got access to cnc milling machine. Save some $ and I like to do it myself...


@ Ozz1967: Normaly the rhoads lifters seem to be used for more torque at low rpm, or for feul economy. I think they could also be a help for emission control. Overlap seems to be the biggest issue for mileage and emission, so if they realy make the duration shorter, it would help me in more then one way.

I might give them a try:
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/rhl-1158/

I asked because some boat-people do not like them...


To maintain stock look wihile not using the smog pump, I considerd to use it for crank-case evacuation. Vacuum and valley vents should reduce internal looses, but I don't know if they disturb oil drain back and lubrication of pistons and valve springs, so i'm not sure if it can be used for the street.

 

Thats cool. I'm glad your keeping the TBI system. I know I have a TPI car but I like both the TBI and TPI systems.

Your project is really good for showing what can be done with a properly tuned TBI motor can do. I have a buddy of mine with a mild warmed up 350 and TBi system as well in his 1989 Camaro RS. Has a the same 2,400 rpm stall as me and has 3.42 gears. He is in the process of tuning it himself through his laptop. Once the tune gets figured out he is really going to surprise a lot of people.

 

This link should be good for some ideas as well. It features a 1991 Camaro RS with a GM performance parts 350 H.O. motor which is rated at 330 horsepower and 380 foot pounds of torque.

http://www.chevyhiperformance.com/fe...vrolet_camaro/

They kept the TBI system as well but swapped in a 670 cfm unit from Holley.

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/hl...make/chevrolet

 

The holley 670 has an issue of too small fuel passages in the injector pod. With higher flow rate fuel pumps, the large pressure drop causes the fuel pressure to vary quite a bit. It throws the fueling all over the place. If you can, find a later model BBC TBI. Its the best canidate for a performance build.

 

Keep in mind that those types of lifters are noisy. They will tend to tick a lot at lower engine speeds, for obvious reasons. Since they have a fast bleed down rate and probably a soft return spring, they let the lash open up and tick. They will reduce the lift at idle and work as advertised, but there are drawbacks to that style of lifter, too.

 

I was able to get an extra TBI for cheap, so I will not buy a new, until I destroy it


One of the drawbacks could be to have problems with the nock sensor. If they are so noisy, i could imagine the nocksensor could detect them as pinging.

An other could be detonation, when using hig compressionratio...

With the adjustable version, this problems could be bypassed maybe.

The nois it self should not be a problem. I tend to to like such things, if they work. At least it will not sound as bad as my bent pushrod.

I'm not sure about them, but Jim Hand recomends them, so I think I can give them a try...

 

I tried to get some Information about the bottom end and im not very happy with the information I get: It seems like the rods will hit the cam and need some grinding. To grind is not the problem, but to lose the balance is a big one. Does cuting the edge of a rod ruin the balance or can I get away with it?

I'm still planing to combine I-beam rods
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/ESP-B13455L030/
with an 268xfi cam
Any experience with clerance issues on that combo?

Edit:
Tec support told me, if I cut all rods the same it will not be a problem. Not kowing of the "black magic" of balancing a V8, I will (if needed) cut all rods at the same spot, the same weight.

 

I would never cut a rod, they're built from the factory for specific lengths and weights, this keeps the engine balanced. Maybe if you really trust your engine builder to cut them.

why not just buy a cam/pushrod combo that works well together? Comp sells kits for just this puropse.

 

"Cut" probably isn't the right word. You're basically grinding away some material to get clearance (like you do for the pan rail).

But, doing so changes the big end weight of the rod, so if the rotating assembly is already balanced, it will have to be rebalanced after you obtain the necessary clearance.

I don't know about that last kit you linked, because the information isn't specific enough about the rods. Generally, if the rods are threaded for the cap bolt, you'll get better clearance than with a bolt & nut type. The picture shows a bolt & nut type, but Summit pictures can't be relied upon.

 

Ozz1967: what do you meen with cam/pushrod combo? I asked several supliers and ended with answers like "cam/rod clerance must be checkt, maybe grinding is reqired" Can yout tell me where I find such combos?

Seems like a gamble...

five7kid: I read I beam is better for clerance, so what I need is a I beam with threaded rods? or is I beam only better for clerance against the block an alows longer piston skirt?
I found out the mentioned kit hase "Cap Retention Style:Through-bolt"
bad...

 

That's my fault, I had Cam/Lifters on the brain (Helping a friend try and figure out what he wants for his Camaro). Pushrods need to be clearanced/ground/sized, whatever you want to call it depending on the size of rocker arm used in conjunction with the cam. To long and they'll bend/break, crushing the lifter into the cam lobes or breaking a rocker and ore breaking other stuff. All in all, bad times. Needless to say, I wouldn't ever attempt this unless you had the correct tools, so I'd recommend a shop do it, this way if they screw it up, they'll have to replace them.

 

Hi guys,

I got to give you an update: I'm now building a 383 with the scat rotating assmbly and the 268xfi, as mentiond.

I went with the AFR 180, because the intake and the TBI semm to be to smal for the AFR 195 and would create a bottle neck.

I just mesured the flow of the OEM intake: The runners of the upper plenum are between 180 and 200cfm, but the runners from the lower are all down at 155 to 160cfm. It will be hard to me, to get equal flow out of this part... I will test the edelbrock TBI intake next, and then decide if the GM is worth any effort (I hate it, but it seems like I got to choose the edelbrock)

The transmission is also on the way from bowtieoverdirves. They recommended also a 2400 stall, so I orderd this one.

I hope to get it donne until the holidays. I fear the injection-part....