Boxxx

Hi everyone, I hope this is an appropriate place to post this. After perusing all of the forums this seemed like the most fitting place, if it's not I'm sorry. I have a few inquiries about the third gen F-body, and was hoping to find some answers from reputable sources. Long story short I'm looking into buying a new(to me) car here soon as a daily driver. My daily driver is probably the equivalent of most people's weekend cars in terms of use, just to clarify. My main concerns are how easy/hard is it to work on the engine and etc... I'm looking at the 87-92(with preference to the 91-92) with the LB9 and M5. I've thought about the fourth gen cars, but they're a nightmare to work on(I know this from the LT1 Camaro my father had back in the day). From what pictures and information I can find, it doesn't seem to be nowhere as bad. Though I find the occasional individual saying the opposite, like in regards to changing spark plugs and wires for example. I know the drive-train is capable of being reliable, my grandfather has a 92 Silverado with 280K+ miles on the original TBI 350 and M5. So that's not a concern, any car of that age can pose problems regardless of origin or platform. I've had cars from 1967 to 1995, so dealing with older cars and their peculiarities is not a problem for me. I'm not looking for some crazy high power street racer, and would be content with the performance offered by the LB9 and M5. Would probably do the exhaust and call it a day as far as mods go. After owning a variety of domestic and import cars I'm wanting to get back into domestic muscle. I just love the sound of a V8, and have always liked the GM F-body. My current car, a 95 Celica, still has the stock exhaust for fear of sounding like a bumble bee. Although it's been a good car in terms of reliability, mpg, and handling ability; it's just not for me though. Other cars I've been considering include the 89-95 Corvette. Thought about the 5.0 Mustangs for awhile, then lamented the thought of me having to gouge my eyes out in order to drive it. I suppose that covers it for the most part. Any insight that can be provided would be much appreciated.

Rolling Thunder

Well as far as the ability to work on these cars I don't really feel they are any better or any worse than most other cars out there. As long as you have the tools and are reasonably well versed in the TPI fuel injection set up you should be ok. My only real word of caution is the condition. As you said the drive train can be very reliable. However if someones messed with the wiring or hasn't taken care of it you may find yourself with a bit of a headache. Third gens are not the most reliable cars out there. Not that there particularly bad but there old enough to have their fair share of issues and complicated enough where when they do have issues it may be out of commission for a few days while you troubleshoot it. If you had a back up car or did not absolutely depend on this car for transportation then by all means shop smart and have fun.

Boxxx

Can't be any less reliable than the 3000GT I had. Never again will I own a Mitsubishi made car... I was only going to get a car that is stock, or as close to it as possible. I know most of them have been abused to an extent, but it's no worse than a neglected Civic of the same year. My only real concern was room to work on them, it seems they're kind of in that awkward phase of plenty of room to no room at all. Obviously won't have the room that my 67 Coupe DeVille had, but anything would be better than that 3000GT... I know to check for the usual things you'd check for on any car: signs of damage and maintenance records, etc... I know how to check the clutch and differential for wear and have a compression checker, so should be able to find one with a good bill of health. I know they won't be as reliable as a 2000+ car, but they won't be any worse than any other car of the time. If anything at least all of the parts for them are cheap. I could buy a newer car if I want, but I've never owned anything past OBDI. I just like the older cars, and I accept that reliability isn't as good as it could be with a 2000+ car. Some other cars I've been looking into include the 93-95 LT1 F-body but I'd absolutely despise having to do work on it, and they're just as beat on if not worse it'd seem. Another option if I wanted to stay with the import scene would be the 77-78 Datsun 280Z or 81-83 Datsun 280ZX. I'm in no rush to make my choice now, just wanted to evaluate all my options. Though I am leaning towards the third gen F-body. Never have to deal with ice and snow, so a RWD platform isn't an issue. Whenever it does get that bad, everything closes anyway. Can't really think of any other cars that fit into what I'm looking for, aside from all the classic muscle cars that cost a fortune for a good example.

WorkmanLt1

Honestly Boxxx. Im 20 and have owned 5 f-bodys now.
Ive owned a 92 corvette. Lt-1
83 camaro z28 m5, 5.0 H.O.
87 Firebird A4, 5.0 4bbl
90 camaro A4, 5.0 Tbi
and now a 95 trans am Lt-1.
Honestly, If you want a pretty fast car for a cheaper price, Id go with the Lt1 camaro your looking at. Yes they can be a headache, but honestly, The LT1 is a torque monster and a great base to start your build (if you do).
I do like all the other vehicles your looking at, they are all great choices.

W.E.G.

What resources for "working on the engine" do you own or have access to?

"Ease" is a very relative term.

If your question is actually, "How hard is it to understand?", then the question to answer is what is your background in working on motors, and how good are you at learning new stuff from a proper manual?

I guess the answer is this:
Third-gen's are primitive enough that you can reasonably "tinker" with them, and at least get your car to be "specialized" for whatever your fantasy holds. They came from the factory with the notion that they would drive well in traffic for the most part. If your idea is a low slung car, with a lumpy cam, and an exhaust that turns heads, you're going to want to stay out of the school zones with it.

My project is to save a car that appeals to me from the junkyard. I'm making slow progress, and I'm "upside-down" in my investment many times over. I probably couldn't sell my car to a knowledgeable buyer for even $1500. Its worth much more to me.

Can you afford it?
Do you have the time for it?
Do you have the ability to actually fix complicated and confusing things?
(Let me tell you, the local wrench-shop, might be willing to take your money, but they really don't want to work on your old car that has a dozen things wrong with it.)
Do you even have a place where you can put all four wheels up on jack stands?

Think about those things before you get into something that is only going to lead to disappointment and frustration.

Boxxx

The LB9 would be fast enough for what I want. I'd take another second getting to 60 if I can still do all of the basic maintenance and repairs without it either taking an eternity or removing the engine. As far as builds go in the end I'd probably just do the easy bolt on things like air intake, headers, exhaust, cam, and so on.

What I meant by ease to work on is the physical aspect. Do I have enough room to do everything with the engine inside of the car. The mental aspect isn't hard, I've worked on everything from a basic carbureted OHV to the computer controlled DOHC nightmares. I have access to a car lift and just about every tool known to man. That's the big appeal in the 280Z(X), it's just so easy to work on. The C4 Corvette didn't look to be too bad either. If it wasn't for the 4th gens having half of the engine tucked up under the firewall(whoever thought of that one should die), I'd heavily consider them. I like all of the F-body cars, with my favourite being the 79-81. If it wasn't for the fact it'd cost a fortune or an eternity in work I'd get one of them. So hence the thought of the 3rd gen came up. If it wasn't for my aversion to automatics I'd find one with the L98.

W.E.G.

I say go for it.

Sounds like you are experienced enough to know where to look for rust issues (a big problem with thirdgens), and usually overlooked by folks who buy them cheap, and on-impulse.

You already know that your best "value" will be a car that is already set up the way you want it, and which has been well cared-for.

That eliminates a lot of cars.

Good example is this:
Looks like somebody's "dream project" that they had to let go, and is now "too much car" for the current owner.
https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/cama...c-z-383-a.html

I think its funny how owners always want to transform the plain models into some sort of super-specialized thing, and then the guys with the super-specialized thing want something more plain.

Looks like nobody is ever really happy with what they have.
Which is why you might as well be happy with what you DO have.

Boxxx

I'm not going to go crazy with it, I know when to stop. Really I just want a V8 powered coupe/liftback with a manual that isn't a Mustang(I do like the ones from 64.5-73 though). For the most part I'm happy with the Celica I have. It just kills me I can't touch the exhaust on it without turning it into a bumble bee, and it's slower than I'd like. Rather it's right or wrong, the sound of the exhaust is important to me. I suppose it's from my musical background. I just prefer the sound of a V8, it's more musically pleasing to me. Of course that's not the only reason, but it's a contributing factor. I originally got the Celica for the mpg, but that really isn't important to me it'd seem. So now I want to go back the wonder that is OHV V8's.

Luckily being in the south, most cars are fairly rust free. Just a matter of finding one that hasn't been butchered and/or ragged out.

W.E.G.

A cowl drain that gets plugged, is going to rust through the firewall, whether its in the south or the north.

But, you already knew that.

My spent-its-whole-life-in-Texas Camaro will be coming back next week from getting that repair.

What's more, we are talking about cars that are now knocking at being 30 years old or better. I look forward to hearing about your V8 thirdgen. Remember too, you can get the most pristine Trans Am out there, and some toad with an '80's Mustang, rusted floorboard, and a vinyl roof will still call your car a "Super Chicken."

Boxxx

That and good ole leaky t-tops and the problems that brings. Generally though in regards with the rest of the body, should have some better luck down here. I'm sure people will love me spending hours examining their car. Hopefully can find a 91 or 92, at least then it will have barely breached 20 years. Meh, I'm not concerned about idiots. I'll just rape them mentally at that point.

Boxxx

Gah, I remembered why I considered the Mustang now... It's impossible to find a V8 F-body that isn't the automatic. Hopefully something will show up. Even considering the LO3 perhaps now.

W.E.G.

You can always install a manual. Might as well install a FRESH one, because if you find one that already has a manual, you KNOW what that thing will have been through on the way to the owner deciding to sell it.

You're halfway there anyway after you have to pull out the consoles and carpet in the process of figuring out where all the water is coming in.

ksith

I agree with above. get the auto v8 f- body and swap to manual. it's been done loads of times and easy enough for someone with basic skills to do. I just did mine may have taken a month but I have a family to worry about too. You could get it done in a weekend. Up side to doing this you can get a better then a t5 if you really want or just stick with a t5 and have it rebuilt using better internals

Boxxx

I could, but wasn't wanting to go through all the trouble. Think I rather have a manual with a worse engine than an automatic with a better engine. To me swapping an engine is a lot easier than converting an auto to manual. I suppose the LG4, L03, or L69 would work provided it already has the T5.

eseibel67

Boxxx - You are going about this the right way, taking the time to do the research so you can make a logical decision before you start the hunt.

I've had plenty of experience with 2nd, 3rd and 4th gens, and from what you are describing, you want a 3rd gen based on your criteria:

1) Easy to work on: You are right, 4th gen are a pain with the engine under the windshield, but you do pick up tricks after you get used to it. A third gen also doesn't score better than a C+ if it's equipped with TPI, A/C and still has the stock A.I.R. components. The 3rd gen is stuck in a transitional time period - old school in concept, but starting to get into the new world with the use of aluminum and computer controls.

2) Exhaust sound: Small block Chevy wins this one every time, either LB9 or LT1. LS1 easily makes 100 more horsepower, but can't match the sound quality of the old uneven 1-8-4-3-6-5-7-2 firing order. If you like sound, TPI pipes sing through the 3k's RPM range.

3) Looks: This one's in the eyes of the beholder, but there's no doubt any third gen will pass this test. So will a 70's Datsun, a C4, or 98+ TA. Stay away from a 93-97 Camaro or an 80's-90's Mustang, they are gross.

4) Price: Sounds like your budget is lower than unlimited, but you are willing to shell out for something good. Even though third gens are now 20-30 years old, they are not getting any respect from collectors which makes them a bargain right now.

The C4 is also a good alternative that meets your criteria. I've never worked on one, but have you seen how accessible the engine and suspension are when the hood is flipped forward?

Once you've decided what you want, don't stray from it. If an automatic is a deal beaker, don't give in on one becasue "it's mint!", you will regret it. If a Third gen is what you decide on, look for an 89+ TPI 5 speed. You don't have to settle for a TBI because what you really want is out there, and it will come up for sale sooner than you think.

Boxxx

I initially was set on having the 87-92 LB9 and M5, started giving consideration to the other engines. Deep down I know I wouldn't be as happy unless I immediately swapped in a crate motor. I'd prefer the 91-92 for looks and a little better build quality, but if I found a good car from earlier I'd take it. Removing the A.I.R. system is first on my list of things to do. I've seen quite a few pictures of the C4 Vette engine bay, L98 and LT1. Looks to be relatively easy to work on from what I can tell, how the front lifts from the car. Though I can't help but feel I limit myself terribly by being so specific on what I want. Suppose it's for the best though. Sadly there doesn't seem to be much of anything I'm looking for locally at the moment. At times I think it'd be easier if I could just live with driving whatever.

WorkmanLt1

Buy a 3rd gen, throw an LT1 in it.