The scoop:
Fresh from the machine shop (and a reputable one) .030" over 350 short block with flat top hypereutectic pistons, a factory forged crank with Elgin rods, .014" piston below deck, brand new RHS Pro Torker iron heads, custom Comp hydraulic roller cam with .575" lift at 224/230 adv duration installed straight up (XFI lobes from the catalogue), 1.6 ratio Pro Magnum rockers, new Comp short travel lifters, 26918 Beehive springs.
The engine started using oil. Not much at first but near the end it was a quart for 1000 miles.
I had targeted the Vortec intake gasket as a probable suspect when in the course of changing it I noticed fragments of valve stem seal floating about.
I could see that the tops of several seals were gone.
My thought was assembly error. I had bench built the heads myself (one set of many that I've done before with no problems) using brand new components from Comp that were installed in the new RHS castings. (Recommended parts from RHS/Comp ) Checked all the heights and clearances etc., etc. All looked good.
Perhaps I had crushed the seals using my spring compressor during the assembly?
Wait! Theres more!
In the process of removing the valve springs and seals it was plain to see that the guides were completely wiped out. I'm talking at least 20 thou sideways movement of the valve stem in the guide with an obvious oval shape to the bronze guide.
I had checked push rod length during mock-up and settled on an off the shelf part from Comp. The rocker sweep pattern across the valve tip looked good.
This engine has 3000 miles on it with only a small amount of hard driving with rpms approaching 6500.
The combination of components has proven reliable in other builds of mine.
What the hell happened?

 

What direction was the guides worn? Towards intake and exhaust side or towards front of car and back of car?

I too have worn my guides out on my rhs aluminums in 4-5 months of driving very little. Turned out to be pushrod length on intake valve. Exhaust side was ok. The combo did not want the same rod length for both valves. My wear pattern on guides was towards intake manifold to exhaust port side and alot of wear lol. My pattern across the lash cap looked fairly narrow and just off center. Thats basically how i always did my pushrod length measurements, narrow sweep and close to center of stem. Apparently that was incorrect

Did you have any floating of valves? Discussions between my head guy and cam guy seem to agree wrecked guides could be because of pushrod length issues or improper valve springs causing float. But wrecked guides from valvetrain geometry issues/pushrod length issues could cause valvespring damage and float them eventually. So too light of a spring could cause float and kill guides or the springs could have been fine til the guides went bad. Its crazy how it works

 

Sounds like valvetrain geometry to me. Alot of the major head company's set clearance on the big side aswell(way over tolerance, like 0.003"-0.0045" sometimes) How well does the valve soring locate in the head? does in use a valve spring locator? how well does the keepers fit in the retainer? How well the the retainer fit the spring? all of these thing's cause cause excessive side load in the valve train.

 

.

 

From a component perspective I'm confident that all of the parts are 100%.
Matched Comp Cam components (springs, retainers, keepers), spring locators, proper installed heights, springs matched to the cam profile, short travel Comp lifters, all the good stuff.

I have to think (as is being pointed out) that the only variable is geometry.
I've used adjustable guide plates to try and centre the rocker tip (Pro Magnums) over the valve however it certainly wasn't 100% as the adjustment provided with guide plates is minimal. I would have liked to have seen a little more lateral positioning (front to back of engine). That said, the pattern of the sweep across the valve tip looked to be compact and centred from a manifold to header perspective.

 

The heads are still on the engine so what I'll do is reassemble the rockers on a few cylinders. I can take some pics of the valve tip pattern and can also point out the slightly angled relationship between the rocker arm centre-line vs the crankshaft centre-line (hard to visualize I would think). As I mentioned, despite the use of Isky adjustable guide plates, I wasn't able to get the rocker tip centred exactly over the valve.
If rocker arm geometry is the problem here I don't think it's in the classic sense of too long or too short a pushrod but rather this offset I'm describing.

 

You never know. I thought my pushrods are correct. Did that same measurement method on 2 different builds. Never had an issue. Now on this one i do. I used isky adjustables to get rocker arms centered on stem as well, and tip pattern seemed centered and narrow but geometry is off if you look at valve stem centerline with respect to rocker tip to trunion centerline.

Some guys say that rocker tip to trunion centerline should be 90 deg to valve stem at midlift. I set that up on my heads and rockers and noticed i am no where near 90. I had to get a long pushrod to make it close to 90 and then the rocker tip was 3/4 the way across the lash cap towards exhaust. Def not center. So what to do?

Some say go shaft rocker which i may. Some say need a backset rocker which i cant find with a .080-.150 offset i need for pushrod pinch clearance on head.

Some say just set it up so pattern is dead center. This may require a shorter pushrod on my setup

Soon as i get the heads back i will be revisiting this.

 

You and me both.
I'm hoping that posting a few pictures might shed some light on this. If something is glaringly off, it should be plain to see.
If you recall, I was involved in another build where the guides in some Brodix heads went away. We had narrowed that down to incorrectly assembled heads straight from Brodix where the spring heights were set to 1.9" rather than the spec 1.8". The other factor (after that was corrected) was the OEM hydraulic roller lifter folding up beyond 6000 rpm. That lifter collapse beat the hell out of the guides again. There was a noticeably clattering valve train after a pass that went away after a minute of idling through the pits.
Now this same build (a friend's engine above) was assembled using the same procedure as my engine and he has a slightly angled rocker as well (and hasn't used guide plates to try and bring it back to square). That's what has me thinking that it may not be be so much push rod length as it is a general misalignment.
But like you said...you never know.
Pics to follow later today or tomorrow.

 

Brodix ik series i heard had some bad guides from factory i thought, or maybe they set valve heights up incorrectly. Not sure but i have seen many reports of worn brodix valve guides

I am getting mine redone with Bullet liners which are suppose to be a pretty tough valve guide liner

 

Once I figure this disaster out, I have to investigate what the alternatives are for guides.
Keep me posted regarding your valvetrain set up.

 

Did you mange to square the rocker over the valve exactly or was there some skew that couldn't be adjusted out?

 

I see you're using the Isky adjustable plates. Did you mange to square the rocker over the valve exactly or was there some skew that couldn't be adjusted out?

 

Mine were square over valve but i have .150" offset rockers on intakes. Could not get standard rockers to clear a 3/8" pushrod and be centered over valve. So i got all kinds of weird geometries going on

 

I did a quick test and took a few pictures.
This is number 1 exhaust which has a wiped out guide so the pattern may not be 100% accurate however I think you can see what's going on.
The wonky guide doesn't yield the most stable of patterns but it's seems to me the rocker tip starts of right in the centre of the valve tip and then as the valve is opened the movement is away from centre..and by quite a bit.
I'm pretty sure I know where the error in assembly came from too.
For whatever reason, photobucket insists on saving my image sideways. The exhasut port is to the left in the photo.


BASE CIRCLE


MAX LIFT


PATTERN ONE. Exhaust port is to the bottom of the picture.


PATTERN TWO. Exhaust port is to the bottom of the picture.

 

I may have found where I screwed up and I'm assuming at this point that it's is an assembly error that killed the guides.
When I made the change from the conventional retro-fit lifter to the new short travel lifter, I don't recall re-verifying the valve tip pattern. If you examine the catalog cuts below, you can see that the new lifter have a taller seat height. 2.66" vs 2.49". Essentially, that makes my pushrods almost 2/10ths too long. .170" to be exact.
The pattern I think verifies this.
That's an expensive mistake.

853-16
Small Block 265-400, Retro-Fit Roller Lifter for Early
Model Blocks Originally Equipped w/ Flat Tappet Cam,
Tall Body Fits Both Standard Blocks & Tall Lifter Bore
Aftermarket Blocks
.842"/136g 2.49"

15853-16
Small Block 265-400, Retro-Fit Roller Lifter for Early
Model Blocks Originally Equipped w/ Flat Tappet Cam,
Tall Body Fits Both Standard Blocks & Tall Lifter Bore
Aftermarket Blocks, Short Travel, Link Bar Guide
.842"/152g 2.66"

 

Sure those are the measured seat heights? Not overall body length? If it is seat height that would do it. I have noticed longer pushrods move tip pattern out towards exhaust port side.

 

Unfortunately yes, they're definitely seat heights. Right out of the Comp catalog.
And just as you've observed, a longer pushrod (or taller seat height) will push the pattern towards the exhaust valve.
Check and re-check.
Live and learn.

 

I need to revisit mine. I think i sized for ls7's but used morels which are advertised as same height but never know

 

I'm hoping that the damage is only to the guides. I'd hate to see all those new Ferrea valves wasted too.

 

I was lucky my valves never kissed pistons from float and seats dont look beat up. However doesnt matter, to do guides or liners in guides you have to re do the valvejob

 

Yes. And the expense that goes along with it.
Not to mention all the additional work doing the cylinder head re and re.
I thought I was going to get off easy. This whole thing started with the notion of only having to replace an intake gasket.