Alright, so I attempted to call Chad Speier to buy a set of heads off of him and he has completely ignored 3 phone calls, 1 message, and 1 PM on YellowBullet... so that option is completely out even though that's originally what I wanted to do and just be done with things.. and I don't want AFR heads as I prefer DART honestly, so that's out of the question also. ANYWAYS: that leaves me with Lloyd to do the portwork (who has always been very responsive and courteous - to his credit). Here's the thing that boggles my mind, though: I told him I've got a 355 with flat tops, zero decked, 7000 RPM's, cam specs, etc etc. He suggested ported RHS 235cc (~245cc's give or take) heads with 64cc chambers.


I repeated him to make sure I heard him correctly, and he stated that the only reason why his LT1 heads (because I brought them up) aren't ported out more is simply because he can't make them any larger. I asked him if that would drastically slow velocity down and make the car run God awful, and he insisted that it wouldn't where the cam/heads make power. He said it WILL be soggy down low, but it will pick up 4000+ RPM's and make excellent power. He mentioned how LSx motors pull it off frequently, but I also don't think that's a fair comparison because those use cathedral ports which are drastically different and can probably afford the larger runners without severe velocity penalty.

so... What am I missing here? I'm a little dumbfounded at the moment. I'm not claiming Lloyd knows everything, but his methods are completely against many opinions if this is the case because he follows the "bigger is better" theory. Is it possible he sees massive results with his LTx crowd because he just 'happened' to accidentally hit the sweet spot on those heads? This just jars my mind a bit.

 

He's wrong. A 245cc head turning 7000 rpms on a 355 is still too big. I can honestly tell you a 6500 rpm 355 with 200cc heads is gutless until 3500 rpms in my truck. I'd imagine a 245cc head would feel more at home on a 7000 rpm 400 motor. Unless you are running a 4000+ stall, I'd almost be willing to bet a smaller head would throw you down the track faster.

 

I currently have ported 200cc Dart IE's (206cc). I am running a Circle D 4200 billet converter for reference.

I really just don't understand the logic behind his statement, honestly. It is potentially possible to lose substancial amount of power simply because the velocity from the cylinder heads is too low to get anywhere - even in the upper RPM's on such a small displacement motor.

I am confused how he hasn't gotten a TON of flack for taking this kind of stance (and thus ruined his reputation unless he knows something the rest of these guys don't)? Surely someone else has figured out the hard way and called him back about it? I just found it odd that he's out there by himself while Darin Morgan, Chad Speier, and even Tony Mamo are all on the same page in agreement. He's obviously doing something right for the LTx crowd, but maybe sizing just happened to be accidental in his case and work to his advantage with the stock LT1 castings.

 

I dont know what chads deal is but i had a hard time getting my heads back from him after sending heads for repair. Took many months and set me far behind schedule. He used to be very responsive. I know he moved his shop and home so i am sure he is busy with that but it seemed he had more time devouted to his serious race buyers instead of street strip guys.

Dont go by cc. Find out what the minimum cross sectional area is or pushrod pinch. Also throat %. Look at the valve size and how it flows, not just at peak but does the head back up in flow as lift rises?

245cc usually is 2.6-2.7 square inch tho, and is quite large for a 355 at 7k rpm. I run a 2.72" sq head thats advertised at 245 cc on my 401" motor thats cammed to turn 6800 rpm or so, and i consider it just a tad bigger than necessary.

Depends how port is constructed but most 23 deg sbc ports are velocity limited to a point and you need to go bigger on cross sectional area for high rpm gains. However a good port of 220's cc and 2.4-2.5" sq will support 383-400" motors well over 7k rpm. Speier had a 421 i think turn over 7k with his 2.5" sq 227cc head.

Programs like pipemax do work, generally, and provide a good guideline for port sizes.

Lloyd knows his stuff but it really depends how his port is set up. I would like to see results and curious about the cam specs used. For only up to 7000 rpms, you really dont need to go that big if its over 2.5" sq at the pinch. 1989gtatransam runs ported afr 210's that now spec 222cc on his 369 and a mid 230's hyd roller turned to 7k rpm with peaks in the 6500 range. Very powerful car and no slouch but it needs converter. Any decent heads big cammed 355 will be soft below 4000 rpm if your turning 7000. Just the way it works, 355's dont make torque. 383 does and why most should build them if lookin for 6500 plus rpms. Torque helps. Dont need quite as much stall.

I know you dont want afr's but a 210 eliminator will do 7k. Maybe not peak there but peak 6500-6700 and hold. The 195's with only 230 deg cam peaks 6250 on a 383 but with enough exhaust duration it holds to 6800. More cam might have done alittle higher.

If you wanted peak at 7k and shift more like 7500-8000, a good 235-245 may work at 2.5-2.75" sq.

 

Orr, the cam specs are for a SFT that I had custom ground at BulletRacing. Specs: 243/251@.050; 560in/565ex with 1.6's, ground on a 106 LSA and 100 ICL.

I am considering buying a set of bare 195 profilers and still having him work on them/build them, I just don't want him to open the castings up like a giant gaping hole.

 

Attila has a 400 build in his "favorites" that makes 500 HP w 180 AFR's. So, I dunno'.

 

Have you considered others like Dr J's Performance, or maybe even air flow development here in pa?

 

I have tried contacting Dr.J's beforehand and never got an answer. I know Bryce is busy I'm sure, but I also don't want to play the waiting game on getting port work done. I've never contacted airflow development, so that's a potential option.

 

I recent read an article in CHP and they interviewed the engineers from Trick Flow, AFR, Dart and one other company. They specifically mention too large of an intake runner significantly killing low and mid range power along with no gains in the high rpm range due to velocity. They compared two heads (let's say a 195cc and 230cc head) on a small block and said the smaller heads will produce more power down low and at the very least the same amount of top end power regardless of flow numbers.

 

Glad someone remembers me occasionally
It was 525 horses, with Dart 180 heads, Dart's equivalent of an RPM AirGap, a too-small carb, and a driveable HR cam with the correct amount of overlap for a 3.75" stroke.
For a 7000-RPM 355 with flat-tops, I do like AFR's best 195 heads. I'd want a moderate-lift solid roller cam and high-ratio rockers. I'd choose a single-plane, and invest in custom 1.88" headers.
For peak power at 7000 and pull to 7500, then I'd say 210 cc.
But for a mix of street and competition, the 525-horse 400 would be difficult to beat without adding boost to something with a milder cam. Sure, you can cam an LS2 or LS3 to meet the goals of this build, but that is not what the OP asked about.

 

That's not strictly true, but it is generally close enough, excepting certain conditions. But for the part of the post I deleted from my quote, that's the truth, any two engines with the same peak HP, the one with more average HP will always win the race. And better to give up peak HP if you gain more TQ at the RPM seen immediately after the upshift.
For hot street SBC guys, cubic inches divided by 2 equals best intake port volume in CCs, assuming an efficient modern head like Vortecs or AFR.

 

Got offered a set of bare Profiler's for $850 cash from one of the local speedshops brand new. My friend is very close with the owner, so he's basically willing to let me save $100. Not locked in for sure yet, but I think I'm just going to buy a set of those and piece together decent hardware on it.

 

Cant go wrong there. Put in components that will last and be stable at rpm. If pushing hyd roller to 7k, do a light valve setup. Hollow if possible, and titanium retainers. Shoot for 1.800" install heights for better spring availability. Mine are +.100 valves at 1.9-1.91" and its hard to find a hyd roller spring for that. Need to shim to 1.875" for me and i still dont know if its enough.

You will have 500 in springs/ retainers and several hund in valves but its worth it. Talk to dennis at air flow development and see if he can hand clean them up. Should easily support your rpm range. Let me know if you need his number and email

 

Thats the only way to make the LTx get any air.
Youll only get so much air past a given valve size

Better to have a 260 cfm head with good air speed everywhere tha t"works" than a 290cfm head with "dead air" if you know what I mean. The car will be faster

Bet you wont get 300 out of a 235cfm size LTx head and it will be a sprinkler system ready to happen. BTDT.

That is WAY too big a head for a 350 period.

Go buy a decent head.


Got something similar on a 383 Gen 1. Sure it pulls great upstairs but Ill bet money (providing the car could hook) a smaller head regardless of flow #s type motor would walk away from it.
Its not jst about peak #s like everyone thinks. Maaaaaybe at the track only but street/strip car will be slower less responsive imo with a huge head.

When I can get some $ Id like to get a smaller pair of AFRs sell these Darts and see for myself. Got to do swaps on many other cars not my own though.

 

I actually don't have a LTx, I have a regular SBC. I think you misunderstood my quote, haha. I asked Lloyd why he recommended such a huge cylinder head when his own LTx castings that he is known for are only 208cc's at their largest. He said they aren't any bigger simply because that's pushing the limit on them and he can't make them any bigger otherwise he would. I have 200cc Dart Iron Eagles on my motor currently.

 

When you say Llyod you are speaking of mr Llyod Elliot of TX aren't you?? I have a buddy that is friends with him and worked over the edelbrock castings on his cleveland headed 331 motor in his cougar. With a built c4, tight stall, dual plane intake and vacuum secondary holley the car ran deep into the 12s on motor alone. On nitrous he had to let off 4 times to keep it off the wall and still ran a 11.57.

 

Apparantly you missed the new generation of Hemi engines. The intake ports are massive rectangular ports and they absolutely fly with a small cam and longtubes. With a very mild cam I put down 385 rwhp from 345 cid and trapping close to 100 mph in a 5,500 lbs truck on street tires.

 

That is the Lloyd Elliot I am referring to, yes. I honestly don't know anything about the newer generation dodge motors.. I've owned thirdgens, fourth gens, and fox bodies only.

 

Your not missing anything. He is correct if you want a 8500+ rpm engine. But he is wrong in the sense that average velocity of the induction system is what makes power. The cc's are JUST a number and it's all about velocity. In fact cc's are just a commercial way of talking about average velocity.

 

So you tried contacting Bryce and never got an answer. Then you assumed he is busy but you post that about me? Then I read where you said you had "mixed feelings" about me and you don't agree with all my "theories". Care to elaborate?

 

Oh no, I definitely called you several times months ago and left messages on your phone. I have mixed feelings because you didn't even take the time to call me back, but you had the time to post on YellowBullet randomly throughout the day the whole week. I wasn't expecting a long phone discussion at the time, I was actually wanting to buy from you because I knew you have a wait time on custom work for obvious reasons. I'm not going to beg you to take my money.

I also run my own business, and I return EVERY phonecall within a week; generally within 24 hours.. even when things are just absolute hell at the shop and I'm knee-deep in work. I never got anything back from you at all.

I said I didn't agree with Lloyd.. I know you do good work, but I wish you were more reliable at getting back to people... even if it's just to say "hey I'm busy, sorry I can't really talk about things but if you want something ordered let me know and I'll do it".

Your work quality is fine. I wasn't questioning anything you've said or done - I am questioning your reliability on getting back with your consumers. Nobody is perfect, and I'm not saying that.. but I never heard anything back from you at all and I KNOW you got a message from me considering I tried several forms of communication. That (from my end) comes off as really not caring either way, in which case I'll spend my money elsewhere.


Bryce I could only call and I never did get him to pick up his phone, so I assume he's just not reliable at picking up the phone/busy constantly and I really don't feel like dealing with that either. I'm not going to waste my time spamming someone's phone number all week when I want/need something done.

 

WOW. Actually I did call you back. Twice. Left a message once.

However, thanks for the little insight.

Not going to get into a he said she said..

I call everyone back. If you follow me on YB, I take the time to help people. I post data, photos, math, etc...

If we got our wires crossed, it happens. However, I take what you just posted a little personal, especially the having the time to post on YB. How about all those 2AM mornings I put in. How about all those tire kickers.

I take care of people. Sorry we had issues.

 

If you didn't hear anything back from me, why didn't you just respond to my original PM, then? That's even easier than talking to me on the phone, right? I never got ANY missed calls or voicemails, and you never did respond to the PM I sent you.

Tell me how you'de respond to that? Because that looks like being blown off to me.

 

I left a message saying if all you wanted was 500hp, then an as-cast head will get you there. I don't sell as-cast anymore so I said to call Jeg's or PBM.

Your PM on YB? I have to clean that thing every 5 days. It was deleted. That was my bad.

Then I saw on here you were peddling the Straub import head and you sold parts so I "assumed" you found an outlet.

 

My name is the same on here as it is on YB. I actually wanted you to build a set for me, not as-cast (I came across some extra money at that point).

I actually don't much care for the import Patriot castings personally in comparison to what's out there for a few dollars more, but if someone else decides they HAVE to have them then I've obviously got them available. I recommended Profilers, and I still stand behind my claim.

 

I thought the situation was covered. My bad.

What is your claim? That I'm untrustworthy with customers?

Honestly, I'm 2-3 months out at all times. They just can't happen with bad customer service.

But one guy and the internet can hurt you. So I recommend anyone who reads this to call me if they need something. Find out for yourself..

But I'm going to give you some business advise since you so eloquently did me. If you don't like the Patroit head, don't sell it. I NEVER ship anything that I would run myself. If you don't like it, how can you in good faith sell it. Big no no and it will bite you in the ***.

 

Not untrustworthy; I was questioning reliability with response.. My opinion is different now since you've taken the time to address me personally on here by digging up my thread via the search tool. I know you're 2-3 months out generally; portwork, R&D, and life doesn't happen overnight.

All I wanted was a response from you. You've given me one now, and I'm satisfied. I've never ONCE told people "Don't go to Chad" if that's what you're thinking. From one business owner to another that's simply not professional.. even if you were a total **** to me which obviously wasn't the case.

 

I'm honestly sorry if we got our wires crossed. But you do bring up a good point that I should follow through a little better. I just get overwhelmed at times.

Glad it's worked out and we can still do something if you desire.

 

Like I said, I appreciate the response. The fact you took the time out to ask what's going on says enough. I'll take you up on that offer. I still haven't purchased a set of heads yet, actually.

 

PM your number again and I will call you tomorrow.

 

PM is bugged for me on here unless it has to do with your postcount for whatever reason. I'll send it to you on YB.

 

Sounds good!

 

There's no reason to give up low-end when you can have it both ways. Use the smallest-cc head that flows enough. I would never accept another 5 cc just to get 5 cfm. 5 cc for 10 cfm, sure, IF I needed those cfm.
And if you're wanting to pull 7000 RPM N/A, then 10.3:1 static compression is a minimum, not a maximum.

 

I totally disagree.

CC's are just a number. Plain and simple. Choosing a head based off of cc's will get you a poor performing engine. If the velocity profile is correct, you won't loose low end. Head size is ALL relevant on how much air it's moving. It's all about moving the proper air for the area available, along with the proper localized velocities.

So if you have a cylinder head that flows like crap, yes it better be small. All you doing at that point is reducing average velocity and that shows up in RAM and cylinder fill which is measured by VE%.

 

I have personally seen and felt the difference of going to far on porting out heads. its gotta have a sweet spot and really flow with a nice force. open it up to much and you get the fan in the hallway effect. my buddy had a nice sbc combo and it pulled hard from 2.500 to 6.000 rpm.he had some iron camel humps with acc holes in them.the heads were worked as much as possible with them also being sonic checked to be careful. he saved up for a so called better set of heads and went to far and killed the torque the motor had. it just revved faster and didint pull nearly as hard as the humps did.

 

So he left the same cam in it and the shortblock was the same?

There is no such things as "going too far" you just have to cam it accordingly. When a cylinder head get's ported, you must turn that port harder to keep the same airspeed. In other words, if your not willing to do so, your going to either go slower, or feel the difference. With more cross section you need to take advantage of it.