M1tch

Hey guys I got my 496 Gen 4 Stroker running today and upon breakin after a couple of minutes of run time i noticed the #2 Intake lifter is not spinning! I immediately shut down and checked the lash which is set at .015" b/c of my aluminum heads. Its a Comp tl292a-8 .635/.637 262/270 @ .050 cam with all new lifters and everything. I'm using brad penn break in oil. I called Comp and their only recommendation was to back the lash off .005" and see if that frees it up. When i checked the lash i pulled the push rod out and i could see the lifter in there with some residual oil at the top of it, but its clearly not spinning. All other lifters are spinning great and the engine sounds good but until i figure this out i'm going to keep from running it. Has anybody on here ran into this before and what did you do to fix it? I'm trying to prevent from removing the intake manifold and making a mess if i can such as using a magnet to try to pull it out of the bore and turn it or maybe using compressed air through the push rod? Here are some pictures of whats going on.

*Tried blipping the throttle from 1500-3000 real quick earlier too but nothing

sofakingdom

iTrader: (1)

Sounds like the typical modern problem w flat-tappet cams... this is why most of us go roller whenever possible...

I don't think there's any way around pulling the intake, if you're serious about actually fixing it.

Pop that lifter out of there and see what the bottom of it looks like. Make sure it's completely free to spin in the bore, I.e. that you can easily spin it by hand. Hopefully it doesn't already have a "bar"-shaped witness mark worn into it; if it does, it's already toast. If it doesn't, take some about 400 grit sandpaper, and gently sand the face of it, from center to the edge, like the spokes of a wheel; emphasis on "gently'; just enough to roughen up the surface just enough to where it will get a grip and not want to slide on the cam. If it's tight in the bore, sand out the bore gently with the 400, being careful not to get any of the grit onto the cam (like, grease the lobe real good with white lithium or something, and then wipe the grease back off when you're done). Clean up all the grit out of the bore when you're done. Put it back in with some moly grease on the lifter face, and plenty of oil in the bore.

.015" sounds about right for that cam; IIRC that series wanted .022" hot, and .015" cold will give you about .021" hot so that should be fine.

cuisinartvette

well said

M1tch

Yea thats what I was afraid of. Sucks it was running so well, everything sounded great and there were no leaks. I feel like if there is a way to free it up by just taking the pushrod out and getting it to turn it will get un stuck. All of the lifters felt smooth in the bore

M1tch

Going to try these things today before i proceed to take off the intake manifold:
Check the rocker arm cup to see if its rough keeping the pushrod from spinning
Lube the pushrod ends with some assembly lube
Back the lash off .005" (recommended by comp)
Check orientation of lifter by visually seeing snap ring, crank engine for a VERY short amount of time and see if it changes.

I've talked to almost every cam manufacture and that seems like the first things to go after before taking the intake manifold off. Two different guys said to go ahead and break in the cam for twenty minutes to get everything nice and hot and see if its not freed up by then. But its not their car or engine, to me thats just asking for trouble

M1tch

Alright guys I have an update.

I checked the rocker arm cup and it appeared fine minus maybe one little spot on it smoothed it out and even put some assy lube on it and on the push rod tip. Set the lash to .018" and fired it up. The rocker arm was getting plenty of lube up to it, equal to the other 15 rocker arms but the push rod is mostly static with occasional rotations. I proceeded to break in the cam but once it started getting nice and hot it started splashing oil everywhere with these valve covers being cut open. I would say it ran a solid 10 minutes and got up to 150 degrees. Should i be out of the ballpark? If its getting an equal amount of oil to the rocker than that must mean the lifter is rotating. I'm guessing the guide plate might be rubbing it while its under a load just enough to keep it from turning much. The only other thing which doesnt seem rational is that the lifter is stuck in the correct position to get oil through the lifter orifice. Any thoughts? As soon as these new valve covers come in i'm going to run this thing for another solid 20 minutes.

M1tch

Son of a bitch. Just to double check i removed the pushrod again and checked the lifter which had the snap ring in the 11 oclock position to the guide plate. Thats literally the same position it was in before i fired it up this afternoon. Upon initial startup i noticed that particular rocker got a considerably amount more oil until everything warmed up.

Jonesyfxr

iTrader: (2)

Sorry to say, that's common in big blocks. We had the same issue with a 461 BBC, ate the came in two minutes. Had to go roller.

I know it's not what you wanted to hear, just being honest.

M1tch

Heres a quick video of it running

redneckjoe

heres a thread you might get something out of? i found it interesting. in the end the guy put a different lifter in there and it spun fine. i know your running a solid lifter, but it may still apply? i think it was from comp too?
best of luck and i hope you get it figured out soon.

http://speedtalk.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=29897

1gary

Gonna go out on a limb here.Was this thing hot tanked and rife brush cleaned??.

M1tch

I have no idea what all he did as far as cleaning the block, it was in good shape when i disassembled it. I'll have to pull the receipt but he runs a reputable race shop

1gary

We had a serious problem with lifter bore sizes on a aftermarket 565 solid roller.They had to be honed.If yours are tight,they have to be honed and bushed.Mic ALL the lifters and ALL the lifter bores.Lifter failure can get serious for the whole build in a hurry.Talk to Comp tech if you find the lifters way off.

1gary

BTW-even through you didn't run it long,still keep the lifters in the order of what holes they came out of,so they go right back into the same holes.

M1tch

Comp Cams told me yesterday that the lifter has to be spinning if its getting oil up to the rocker arm and crane cams told me that getting oil to the rocker arm has nothing to do with lifter rotation. So whats the truth lol

sofakingdom

iTrader: (1)

In this case, you got the truth from Crane.

The lifter spinning is in no way related to oil flow. The oil passages are completed regardless of lifter rotation.

Failure to spin is not particularly related to "big block". Small blocks, and engines of other brands besides Chevrolet, have the same issues. Modern oil, with its ever better elimination of friction, is more to blame, along with the extremely poor quality control at the US auto mfrs back in the 70s that didn't matter so much back then but now is more critical.

Lifter spin is related to exactly 3 things:

1. The orientation of the lifter bore to the cam, and consequently, the relationship of the convex surface of the lifter to the "slanted" surface of the cam;
2. The freedom of the lifter to turn in its bore; and
3. The "grip" that the cam gets on the lifter face, imparting rotational energy to it.

One or more of those things is missing. The first, you can't do anything about; it's a function of the block machine work, and can only be fixed by sleeving the lifter bores and re-drilling them correctly. I already told you how to deal with the others.

Cleaning the oil passages is probably not at issue here. Which of course is not to say, it's not necessary, or any such thing; in fact I won't even build a block any more, and most especially if I suspect that there has EVER been a blowup in it, without running rifle brushes through the passages; only, that metal chips in the passages aren't a likely cause of this specific problem.

OTOH, metal chips in the passages are an INEVITABLE RESULT of your problem, if you run it without fixing it.

M1tch

I'm down to this before i remove the intake manifold tomorrow:
Swap a pushrod and a rocker
Adjust the guide plate
Check the orientation again and crank very shortly
See if there is rotation

M1tch

If i've learned anything its do the easy things first, eliminate all other variables, then assume the worst lol

sofakingdom

iTrader: (1)

You're kidding, right? You still haven't pulled the manifold and actually LOOKED AT IT?

The rest of that won't accomplish ANYTHING. Total waste of time and effort, all that messing with any of that will do is delay ACTUALLY FIXING THE PROBLEM. See the list of the 3 bullet points up there.

M1tch

Well first I need to verify 100% that the lifter isnt rotating properly in the bore and its not just the push rod because that can happen. That will take me no time to swap a few push rods and adjust the guide plate. I'm just going to crank the engine for a few seconds and see what happens one last time

Do the free things first lol. I don't want to rip an intake manifold off and get coolant everywhere and waste my break in oil and gaskets IF there is a chance in hell its just the push rod. But your post is exactly right about lifter rotation! Thanks for the help man. I need to start recording my phone conversations with Comp

1gary

Polling other sites isn't doing anything in work to resolve this.Really want to see feedback on what you have actually done.

M1tch

You stalking me now ? Third Gen is my roots but i figured i would try another forum since there probably arent as many people on here with mechanical flat tappet experience. You'll have feedback tomorrow and you'll be the first to know on both of them lol

1gary

Seen as I gotta chase after ya to "help" you LOL:



I would think HF has a version of this too you could get cheap local.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Lifter-Remov...-/350963273289

InfernalVortex

iTrader: (4)

I would probably ditch the lifter and replace it as long as you can turn it by hand in the bore. Lifters are cheap, this one isnt working, see if another will fix it. The damage may be done but it's not a huge expense.

This is a lifter that came out of my 350 back when I had about 2 minutes of run time on it.



I had to abort the initial break in due to an unrelated issue, and since I had it apart I checked all the lifters. All had a nice round pattern on them except this one. I drenched it and the cam lobe it was on with cam lube and all the other lifters got a fresh coat of break in lube too.

Works fine now.

M1tch

Looks exactly like my lifter. I went ahead and ordered a new lifter but its not here yet. My car also sits outside so today was the first day i had a chance to get around to working on it. So here is what I got. It felt really smooth in the bore and came right out. I'm going to pull the plugs out (case of hydraulic lock from pulling intake), put the new lifter and distributor in and crank the engine for a second or so and see if it spins in the bore. If so yay if not then back to the drawing board.

Side Note: I'm officially a licensed aircraft engine mechanic! Got my Powerplant license Saturday. So i'm an A&P

86LG4Bird

iTrader: (1)

Congrat's Mitch! Where are you working?
Don't know if you remember; I met you at TriState a couple of years ago.
(Pat with the Green Chevy pickup running 13's on the spray )

redneckjoe

congrats!

i hope the new lifter does the trick.
maybe you just got a bum lifter?

M1tch

Yea man its been a while hope to see you at Edgewater this year

M1tch

Alright guys got it running good yesterday i broke in the cam finally. The original lifter i tried using again did not spin while it was running even though it did cranking so i was able to swap lifters using two magnets and a hole just barely big enough on the opposite side cylinder head. (I felt like a boss) That lifter also did not spin at FIRST but i rotated it 90 degrees and fired it back up and like a dream it started rotating real slowly then started going faster so after thanking god i broke her in. Going to retorque heads, change oil, fire up and get her nice and hot to break the rings in and then shut her down and adjust the valve lash and hopefully be good to go! I'll post videos later

M1tch

Never a dull moment. Changed oil in it Monday afternoon and was checking through some things before i fired it up. Found this, no idea how it happened other than that my new valve covers was rubbing that particular rocker arm a little bit (#1 Intake). Good thing the other keeper held on. What could have caused this? I'm 99% sure it wasnt like this before i fired it up. I guess my next course of action is to get a stud mount spring compressor and inspect the valve and keeper. Just make sure its at TDC right and the valve can't go anywhere?

redneckjoe

glad to hear the lifter worked.
nice catch on the keeper. that could of been really bad.