tyeo098

Well, for some reason State Farm agreed to insure it, and the DMV was more than happy to take my $135 for antique plates... So its home now!

So now the real work begins.
I've done some *basic* tune up things with tools I have available (replacing the Firebird seats with ones from a Camaro, cap n rotor, etc)
I've yet to set timing since my statistically significant other drove off with the light in her car, but I'm gonna guess its a whopping 30* off or so based on the amount of missing and backfiring I get.

Another problem I have to solve before I delve into the PROM tuning is the oil eatin'
If I let it idle once she's warm, it'll puff a little bit here and there, but at startup its clean.
If I'm driving down my neighborhood and stomp on it, it'll downshift and hit 5-6k while generating a LARGE cloud behind me.

When I got home I figured I'd check and see what the plugs looks like and this is the #1


So oil is coming from somewhere, getting into the chamber, and leaking out the plug threads via explosive force.
I'm reading 50-60PSI on the dash oil gauge (sometimes it goes 60++ if under load) even though I'm in the 'add oil' area on the dipstick.
But on my fuel gauge 1/4 is empty so I take it with a grain of salt.

I've narrowed it down to a few possible scenarios...

1) Intake gasket is leaking/cracked intake letting sloshy oil from the lifter galley to get sucked into a chamber/the plenum.
- I can confirm this by checking the rest of the plugs and/or removing the intake altogether
2) I also noticed by PCV valve had liquid oil on it on the underside that sticks in the valve cover.
- When I look in the hole I see no rocker, so it has the proper baffels, but that liquid oil there makes me want to build an oil-gas separator to see if it's sucking it in.
3) Super bad ring problems.
- Basically off to craigslist to find a new engine

Am I missing anything?

EDIT: Also the headlights don't come up until the engine is warm. They light but don't rise. Just another quirk

RBob

iTrader: (1)

Looks like antique tags in VA is easy. Here is PA need to submit 4 pictures and no way would your car get antique tags here. That and need another 'standard tagged' car as you aren't supposed to use the antique car for daily use.

As for the oil issue, likely the rings are shot. Intake manifold or PCV leaking would show up on decel as the manifold vacuum is high.

RBob.

RyanJB

Delaware's even worse. Car has to be "in factory configuration with no horsepower modifications."

I'd also recommend looking into the rings as well. Mine burns oil in a similar way and that's what I've narrowed mine down to

tyeo098

Heck, in VA you can write 'FARM USE' on a plate and its good if you have a truck.
Its not really enforceable is the problem because the laws are so vague.

Damn.
And the guy I bought it from said it was a fresh rebuild too.

RyanJB

Funny thing about that is mine is a stock rebuild. For sure. I did it. What I realized a few thousand miles in that a consume about a quart a month. I messed up a ring land when I was installing a piston due to a shitty ring compressor.

tyeo098

Would my extremely high oil pressure have something to do with anything?

RyanJB

I doubt it. My Stock 305 car does that now and so did my brothers camaro.

tyeo098

Ok, I'll snag a compression tester and see what the rings are looking like then.
Unless anyone in VA has one I can borrow for a beer

UNCLE TOM

iTrader: (1)

what is extremely high oil pressure ? high oil press. on an eng. is not always a GOOD thing . a very hi flow/press. race type oil pump with stock bearing clearances can hold an engine back . before some of you say B/S stop and think how an automatic transmission works . thin viscosity oil , high press. on the clutch's , friction caused , the car moves . the same can happen to an engine . too much oil pressure can cause friction on all bearings . good oil flow with 30-45 p.s.i. is ideal . yes I have seen it cause some smoking on engines . O.K. I rambled on , I just wanted to dispel the thoughts that high oil pressure is good . may not be your problem , but if it had a recent re-build as the P/O said , oh well ....... good luck .

Vader

That's unlucky. In Ill-Noise there are "Expanded Use Antique Vehicle" plates for vehicles 25 years or older. That allows unrestricted use from 1 April through 31 October every year, and the normal restrictions outside of those dates (travel only to events, shows, service, etc.). It's worked out well for me, and I have the insurance company in sync with the tagging. Off-period insurance is a whopping $8 / 6 months for theft and comprehensive coverage, no PD/BI liability or collision.

A cylinder leakage test could be quite revealing, but a cranking compression test is better than nothing.

Did the vehicle sit unused for any extended period of time?

tyeo098

It appears HF sells a leakdown tester that will suffice if I follow the instructions in the reviews instead of the included ones heh. And 20% off!

The car was sitting for a while between when I could work on it or not at my FILs house, maybe a few months at a time.
God knows how long it was sitting in NY before I bought it.

UNCLE TOM

iTrader: (1)

still wondering what P.S.I. extremely high oil pressure is ???

tyeo098

Off the gauge?

tyeo098

Well I took it for a 90 minute ride with some friends last night.
I topped off the oil and checked the gas, good levels and probably 80psi when we left.

Oil pressure was slowly decreasing the entire ride as we smoked it up, ending where we were bouncing between 30psi at idle and 5-10 under load!!
I drove it gingerly to keep the oil pressure up, I guess I was running out!!

tyeo098

Well I replaces the oil that I lost on that trip and in 90 miles I used 2.5qts on oil.

That seems like.... a lot.

3rdgenmaro

iTrader: (9)

pull the motor and tear it down. Something aint right.

Any reason nobody threw out bad valve guides? Could be a combination of both guides and rings.

Wife'sCar

iTrader: (1)

Not quite that easy, vehicle has to be registered that you own it in your name, and you have to have insurance on it, as well as own a farming company or have your land zoned agricultural (my parents farm is). But it doesn't need to be inspected and there's no limit to the amount you can drive it so long as it's for something pertaining to farm work. (I was raised on a hay farm) tractors on the other hand just need a reflective orange triangle and you're good to go, I grew up driving the tractor behind my parents to various fields while they drove the truck.

Makes more sense to state tag a farm truck than to use farm tags, unless it's so ragged it won't pass inspection.

And the laws on antique plates are truly vague as crap. You can only drive it to an automotive show, or to pick up parts for it, or to the place you are going to work on it, or to a gathering of like vehicles, or to show someone, or you can just take it on a "pleasure drive".

And you are not supposed to drive it more than 250 miles from its place of registration in a single day unless it's to a show/gathering. It does not specify that you can't drive 250 miles in a day, park then drive that much further after. I even asked the woman at the dmv about that and no one in the building could give me an answer on that. The only stipulation is you have to have a normal registered and tagged vehicle besides the one you want antique tags for.

The only thing that I boned myself on with antique tagging my bronco is I found out after the fact that you absolutely under no circumstances can tow ANYTHING.

So basically if you get pulled just think about what town you are heading to, if it's got a parts store you are picking up a part, if someone you know lives that direction you are going to work on it, if none of the above you are taking it on a pleasure drive because you haven't driven it in a while.

VA has some really weird laws.

Like there are two seperating exhaust laws, one is for noise level, and the other is for modification from the factory design. So if you took a stock system, and added a muffler or something to make it more quite you now have an illegal exhaust in Va.


But anyways, is it possible that the intake manifold gaskets have a tear or break letting oil from the galley into the intake??

tyeo098

That's what I'm thinking. It seems to be consuming way to much oil for it to be a ring or valve issue.
Is there a guide for removing the intake?

Wife'sCar

iTrader: (1)

Tbi right? Disconnect battery, disconnect fuel lines from throttle body, unbolt/unplug throttle body, move put of way, take dizzy out, disconnect coolant line at the t Stat housing, remove cable brackets and coil, unbolt intake. Pretty simple, doesn't even need to be in that exact specific order.

I saw your in Va and got excited for a second, was gonna offer to help, then saw Chantilly. I'm way down in Hampton Roads about 45 minutes west of Norfolk/Va Beach. You're way up near DC

tyeo098

I'm assuming I need to drain the coolant and open the gas cap right?

Wife'sCar

iTrader: (1)

I didnt. Maybe a good idea to drain a but of coolant but gas cap doesn't matter much. If you want, pull the power from the pump and run the car till it quits to get the fuel out of the lines.

tyeo098

Soo... uhhh


Should something be bolted in this hole? (Right next to the coolant sensor, front of intake)


...how about this one? (IS THAT A MAIN INTAKE BOLT HOLE??!?!!?)


I'm guessing this is an unnacceptable bolt to secure the intake with?


But a piece of threaded rod will do the job just fine.


I think I found the source of my oil leak you guys...

1988CamaroSC

iTrader: (2)

holy smokes!!

tyeo098

Yeah... that's the problem!

OrangeBird

iTrader: (1)

Lets not be SO fast to declare the intake manifold as 100% being your problem here !

In the pics you show , I see nothing that would explain oil leakage into the cylinder(s) . The empty holes you show , as well as the partially screwed in bolt , are not holes for hardware to hold the manifold to the engine , those are holes for hardware to hold things to the manifold . Things like the missing brackets for the missing AIR pump , for instance .

If those holes were anything other than castings to hold brackets & such , you would surely know it by the massive leaks of both vacuum and coolant that would be caused from a not bolted down manifold .

The threaded rod picture isn't clear enough to me , but sure looks like a factory stud that had something mounted to it (like that mising air pump) . I'd like to see a few more shots of it and the rest of the top of the manifold also . In the meantime , I would suggest still doing your compression and leakdown checks , those are a really good indicator of just exactly what your dealing with , no guesswork required .

PS , a reading of manifold vacuum is another piece of the diagnostic puzzle that really should accompany the compression & leakdown tests .....

OrangeBird

iTrader: (1)

Yep , staring at the threaded stud picture has made me really want to see more shots of that area of the manifold . I'm not too sure what's going on there yet , but I am sure the missing bolts in the threaded casting bosses are not your oil issue

tyeo098

Compression test...

tyeo098

Cyl 1

Cyl 2

Cyl 3

Cyl 4

Cyl 5

Cyl 6

Cyl 7

Cyl 8

Damon

Oil-soaked threads is a dead giveaway that oil is coming in with the the A/F mixture. Valve guides, valve seals, intake gasket- that sort of stuff. The tan "fluff" on the plug is more oil that's been burnt onto the "hot" parts of the plug.

tyeo098

So I don't need a new engine... yet.
That's good.

At the rate its consuming oil 2.5qts/90miles would it be safe to assume that valve seals and valve guides are not the cause? Could they leak that much?

tyeo098

So I built the can and attached it to my PCV valve system with a really long hose...
And I noticed as I gave it throttle that there was a cloud that appeared in the can:
I'm sure this is caused by the vacuum pressure difference when manifold vacuum drops because the plates are opening... but just in case someone tell me that's OK?

Additionally I got bored with with sitting there playing with the throttle so I buttoned it up and drove down the st to where there were no houses and gave it some hard revs for a few seconds.

Keep in mind this was ~7 minutes of warming up from a cold engine, then about a 2 minute drive with revving for like 10 seconds.

When I got back I looked at the can... and it was empty.
BUT In the hose I had running from the PCV to the can, there was about a teaspoon-tablespoon-ish of black oil:


That seems like a LOT for 10 mins of running the engine. Without the hose catching it that would have gone straight to my intake.

So... is it a PCV problem now?

cuisinartvette

Excesss crankcase pressure, oil fouled plugs, detonation (look at those plugs!)oil pressure drops under load etc
Id say shes tired and ready for a fresh breath

Did the guy provide paperwork for this so called rebuild?
See so many ads of this specially on CL....rebuilt, has 30k and nothing more really than paint. Hope everything works out!

tyeo098

The oil fouled plugs are because its burning oil lol.
It seems we've localized it to the engine taking in oil with the AFR at some point.
I don't see any signs of detonation on the plugs, just where burnt oil fluff got scraped off in the course of removing the plug.

The oil pressure dropping under load was caused by me running OUT of oil. The pump pushed it all to the heads and the pan went low before it could drain back (from my understanding)

Additionally when driving last night to test my catch can there it was dark and I had stopped under a street light to punch it and view any smoke when I had noticed a thin dark line following the path I had took.

Its oil too.

No spots on the driveway though so I must have never noticed it. Pan gasket? Pan leak? I gotta prop it up again and see whats going on down on the bottom.

Catch can had some oil in it too which was nice to see it working.

But I forgot I put the antenna on the wipers when I threw the cover on so when it started raining and I turned them on... no more antenna

tyeo098

Well my AIR garbage is gone, so I'm going to check this first w/ regards to that oil leak...



Yay searching!

Damon

You sure that's all oil collecting in that hose? Could be moisture evaporating as the engine /oil heats up and condensing again inside the hose. Kind of like when you see liquid water drizzling out the tailpipe after a cold start.

If you got LIQUID oil trailing out under the car while you drive that could DEFINITELY explain a lot of your "oil consumption" issues (though clearly not all).

tyeo098

Went for a drive yesterday and didnt see any trailing liquid so I'm confused on that...
But my oil catch can has a nice little puddle in it....
But I'm still blowing smoke!

So with what Damon said:
I'm going to start by replacing the intake gasket, then looking into valve guides and seals.
These are swirl port heads, should I look into just getting another set of heads if the valve guides are bad?
I have access to a lathe, so knurling the guide rods is an option.

B4C5.7

iTrader: (2)

Needs a new engine....

tyeo098

You must be fun at parties.

Anyway, I just got back from a week long work trip overseas, and when the weather clears up I'll be swapping those intake gaskets out.

UNCLE TOM

iTrader: (1)

when will you step back realize that your engine is done . its obvious to the entire world . you need to replace it or overhaul it . your little "Band-Aid" fixes (catch can and etc.) are not a cure/fix . the entire engine is worn out and tired . good luck ...