hello tgo I finally took the time to register as I continue to do research for upcoming work on my third gen. she's a 1989 iroc that is just past the 100k mile mark.

from what I understand and have learned from when I had my c10 and 66 chevelle, it is more cost effective in the long run to buy a new crate as opposed to trying to piece together an engine rebuild/upgrade. would you guys agree with that? my research has shown me that as&m runners, a comp cam, intake, heads, rockers and valve covers would cost $3k alone, not including gaskets etc. on the other hand, buying a blueprint 383 crate is 3500 plus whatever else i might need (looking to ditch tpi since I'd be swapping blocks anyways). not sure if i should go stealth ram or holley efi maybe?

that brings me to the big question at hand. how would I maintain the smogability? I will be living in California for the rest of my time and will need to be able to get it smogged seeing as it is not very easy in my opinion to find places that will pass you when you're not legal. I already pass smog (only have 3in exhaust and won't be removing cats). I understand the physical component of swapping the engine but not so much the tech part. would I have to keep the TPI setup? I'm not opposed to swapping to a carb but would like to have some sort of efi whether that be holley efi (preferred), stealth ram, or tpi (least preferred).

thank you for reading this guy's manifesto

 

Your choices are: keep TPI; upgrade TPI with C.A.R.B. approved parts; upgrade to an engine with a certified system of the same model year or newer as your chassis including everything emissions-related that came on the vehicle for which it was certified.

I suppose you could add C.A.R.B. approved power adder, if there is such a thing for an '89.

Converting to a carburetor is out of the question for an '89.

 

AFAIK none of the aftermarket EFI systems are CARB approved.

No carb is CARB-approved for your car. (eat more carbs!!)

Best bet is probably a LS1 or similar. Unfortunately a 5.3/4L60E pullout won't work for you legally since it's out of a truck not a car.

 

looks like it's back to the drawing board!

now that it looks like I'll be keeping/upgrading tpi, do you guys think stroking this one is now my best bet? i was reading that CA smog swaps have to had been available for that year and the same age or newer so iron truck LS are out of the question. from what i understand you can't tell visually when the original engine has been stroked.

 

Some reference material:

https://www.smogcheck.ca.gov/

https://www.bar.ca.gov/Industry/Engi...uidelines.html

 

Your best bet is a 98 to 02 LS camaro/firebird complete drivetrain swap I would say. Then go to a smog ref and have it smogged as a newer engine swap. You can ask them in person - I would. But from what I know, if this is done correctly and completely it should be fine.

GD

 

A few TGO members have gone that route. It is pretty involved, though, since you have to have ALL of the emissions equipment from the donor vehicle (like the fuel tank with it's evap system and pressure control).

There is a completely legal (and much more powerful) option - the GM E-Rod crate engine http://www.gmperformancemotor.com/parts/19257230.html . You're not doing it to save money on a rebuild, though. It's over $8k for the engine and emissions equipment, and you still have more money to spend on the install itself (mounts, exhaust, fuel pump, vent & purge lines to connect to the supplied emissions equipment, etc.). But it does have a CARB E.O. #.

 

94-95 OBD1 LT1 would be the easiest swap. Then again I would just use TPI parts that had EO numbers. Edelbrock and SLP to name a few.

 

I would not mess with LT1; too "fragile" in an overall way. Not the bottom end or any of that, just, its long-term reliability is very poor; aftermarket support is limited, and disappearing rapidly; and an OBD1 one will have all the same tuning headaches as TPI. (as in, imagine surfing the Net with the computer sitting on your desktop in 1990)

Similarly I would not waste time upgrading TPI. I can think of few more pure wastes of money in 2017.

About the only mod that will pay off in terms of bang-to-buck ratio, is headers. But then you're stuck with $$omething that only fits small block Chevy, which while a good motor in its day, has now been out of production for nearing 2 whole decades.

Look at it as, time to s*** or get off the pot.

 

I have no trouble tuning either setup. The only fragile part is the Optispark and MSD as well as others make improved replacement parts. The OBD1 LT1 is also fully flashable with TunerPro or Tunercats. Much cheaper to tune than anything OBD2.

Trying to get a LS Swap through California smog sounds like the utter waste of time and money to me.

A 383 with a good set of aluminum heads, a small roller cam, an edelbrock TPI base, a set of SLP or ASM runners, set of EO shorty headers and magnaflow Y-pipe with a California approved catalytic converter would make GREAT power and stay smog legal. You can easily chip the 7730 ECM and it has no problems being dialed in, even in 2017. My old G20 van ran great with the 7730 controlling a very healthy 383.

350 is far from out of production. GM is still turning them out for thousands of Marine and Industrial applications. Rugged, Reliable and Simple. I feel it is here to stay for atleast another 5-10 years in those applications.

 

I'd hate to see this devolve into a "my platform is better than yours" playground fight. Might as well get into a Chevy vs. Ford argument. Politics or religion, anyone??? How about what is the "best" oil?

Let's go back to first principles: You mentioned TPI, but you didn't say which engine you currently have, 305 or 350. Which is it? I assumed 350, but it's not wise to assume anything.

You also talked about basic upgrades to your current engine, specifically "as&m runners, a comp cam, intake, heads, rockers and valve covers" (not sure how valve covers belongs in that list). You're on the right track. You also talked about buying a 383, so I assume you aren't considering stroking your current engine. If you do a 383, your first upgrade list still applies - you won't gain much with more cubes without doing those other things (one could argue heads, rockers, and valve covers would not be required).

If you do go with a crate 383, make sure it is spec'd to meet your emissions requirement - mostly cam, heads (if longblock), and CR. It's going to have to be compatible with your TPI system. I'd for sure want it to be one-piece rear main seal and roller cam (just better than the older 2-piece RMS and flat tappet lifters). Roller rockers are also a good idea in my book, and I have my favorite (don't care much for aluminum rockers, especially for the street). And you'll need bigger injectors, and ECM tuning. Maybe even a fuel pump upgrade. But realistically you're talking about a lot more than $3500.

Like Fast355 mentioned, all of your aftermarket components need to have a CARB EO #.

One could make a case that just doing all the upgrade stuff to your 350 (assuming you have a 350) makes more economic sense for an emissions-legal driver. If your engine has received at least basic maintenance (such as regular oil changes, and air and fuel filter replacement as needed), the bottom end for sure is probably in good shape even at 100k miles. And the heads at most may need valve stem seal replacement, and possibly valve springs. Put your money toward the cam, runners, injectors, tuning, etc. (and maybe basic head porting/cleanup). Of course, if you currently have a 305, never mind...

One comment on the LT1 swap idea - you'll have EXACTLY the same difficulty with that as you would with an LS1 swap - all of the later emissions equipment has to be there. I love my '96 LT1 Y-body, but I can't justify that swap in a 3rd gen CA smog-legal swap as being easier than an LS swap. The later platform of the LS make much more sense if you're already going to that much trouble (do you want to keep AC?).

But, if you're really up for a killer emissions-legal swap, I still think the E-Rod outshines them all. Of course, the cost will be the highest of all the options, and you're probably looking at a transmission replacement as well (TH700R-4 and drive-by-wire throttle don't play nice together - it can be done, but it's a lot more hassle). And you wouldn't be the first to do it, so you're not plowing new ground.

It really comes down to a few basic things: Your intended use of the car, how much work you want to put into this, and your budget.

 

With a 4th gen LS1 swap wouldn't you be able to "tune out" the fuel tank junk and other bits and bobs that the smog ref wouldn't be able to see? I know when we tune imports we can simply turn off codes related to cold start air pumps, fuel tank pressure and temp.... basically things that don't figure into the fueling calculations (or if they do, zero out their tables) we just tell the computer to ignore. And it would be awful difficult for a smog ref to see inside your fuel tank. And with the LS1 being OBD-II as long as they get the all-clear from the computer and the tail pipe checks out and it appears under the hood that visually it's all there... I'm thinking they are going to pass it.

GD

 

Wish it was that simple. For swaps like that, they get into the knickers of the programming.

I got dragged through all that in Colorado (was my fault - I let my smog-exempt collector tags expire). You should see the printout of infractions they generated. Sold the car rather than try to make them happy.

That was after it sniffed clean on the rollers, by the way. Failed me because it was an '82 and didn't have EGR or A.I.R. Got sent to the referee, who was not at all happy with me.

 

Wow. Didn't know they got that deep into the software. Here in Oregon the smog stations are purely a money grab. It's super, super easy to circumvent even going there on the DMV paperwork side. If you do go they just plug it in and if you have no codes and your readiness is complete you pass. They have even gone to self service lanes where you plug the car in yourself! Very occasionally I will hear of someone getting failed because they looked under with a mirror for the cat but in these cases you can just go across town to another test station and invariably they don't look. LOL.

GD

 

Yep. Life is different in CA. (And CO ain't far behind)

 

It always amuses me to see people who don't know diddly about California, try to pretend that they know best what to do.

I didn't have all that much trouble keeping my fleet smogged when I lived out there, but I can sure see where people that DON'T READ AND FOLLOW THE FORKING RULES could get a serious case of red-[butt] over what they put you through out there.

And of course, it's always funny to hear people who HAVE NEVER BEEN TO LA talk about "you don't need that crap, it's just the ***** trying to take over your life and control you". Most of those people don't know what it's like to drive down a freeway where the air is so thick and brown you can't read the big green signs over the freeway.

 

The thing about the truck LS engines is some have been approved by the referee in CA. It is at least partially due to being vastly cleaner running than the recipient vehicle's original power train. However, I don't know if this is able to be defined by a specific section of the BAR rule book, or subject to referee discretion.

Since you're in CA, burn a bunch of time talking to the govt. people that can maybe answer your questions ( and even mine above lol) THe LT1 swaps and TPI were easy enough; most components were easy to carry over to the other vehicle, the LS stuff adds complexity.

I prefer an OEM / junkyard drivetrain over the E Rod, but it is a great option for those who prefer it. If nothing else, it is amazing we have an aftermarket new option, where most things limit swap options.

You should save notes on what parts you plan on, and what parts you want to avoid. I am a fan of the Spohn mounts for the swaps and I have different ideas on doing accessories and keeping AC than the usual high mount. Read up on what everyone is doing with theirs. You might find you really like the GTO drive trains, or you might get really interested in accessories from something else.

Good luck!
They watch carefully over the evaporative systems, and even if you feel you have swapped the donor vehicle bits into the recipient vehicle tank/sender, be prepared with documentation to prove it.

 

sorry for the disappearance I just finished my last undergrad paper
I didn't mention specifics on the engine but yes I currently have a 350. correct me if i'm wrong but I thought for 89 if you had an iroc z it will always be a 350? that's something I thought I read up on before buying.

my dilemma is I was looking for further suggestions on rebuilding my current 350 vs swapping in a crate 383. i'm not opposed to stroking my current engine but from my previous research I thought rebuilding/machining a sbc usually costs more than buying a crate (also wasn't thinking about smog when this idea came up)

i think a more appropriate title for the thread is rebuilding/stroking my tpi 350 vs swapping a 383. at this point i'm thinking stroking this 350 and looking for upgrades that have a carb eo # is the way to go just for the ease of the smog components already being there

 

You are.

Since you "thought" that, I STRONGLY recommend you ACTUALLY FIND OUT what you ACTUALLY HAVE.

Good place to start would be with the VIN; 8th digit will be 8 for a 350, F for a 305. Won't tell you what the engine IS, but will tell you what it WAS WHEN NEW.

Get the casting number of the block. That's the only really reliable way to tell what a motor ACTUALLY IS. Don't bother with stamping codes, PO run-off-at-the-mouth, "runs to good to be a 305", "looks just like a 350", or any of that. Block casting number. Conveniently and conspicuously located on top of the bell housing flange behind the driver's side head.



Do this BEFORE spending ANY money on ANY THING for it.

 

darn I'm embarrassing myself here. I did decode the vin before I got it so it's "supposed" to be a 350 with manual restraints made in 89 at the van nuys plant. I am a little assuming with this owner as I know them personally but will verify the casting number on the block

 

If you decide to buy a crate engine, DO your homework first. I thought maybe Blueprint would be a good option (I could get wholesale from Summit/Atech) but as with anything I do, I googled "blueprint engines reviews" before really considering it other than checking my pricing. I was not impressed with what I saw. As with a lot of things in this modern media world - looks like they rely on shouting their name louder than everyone else with the hope that people don't actually look into real peoples experiences with their product. Giving a carefully hand built (by your best engineer) engine to Motortrend for then to flog on their dyno for marketing purposes is easy enough to do. But production building then to that same quality standard each and every time at the best price point is much, much harder. My research indicates probably not possible at near 100%.

GD

 

What is the deal in Colorado now? Are you able to run without smog equipment if you have collectors plates or is it you just have to pass once with all the smog equipment for collectors plates?

 

You have to pass before getting the collector plates. But you can only get new collector plates on '75-older vehicles now. It used to be 25 years old or older, which is what I did for my two '82 Camaros, and you don't need to get it inspected/tested again if you keep the registration current (they grandfathered those that got collector plates before they changed it back to '75-older). But I goofed up and let one of them expire - you can be sure I didn't take any chances when the other one came up for renewal.