What is a hydraulic flat tappet lifter brand or line anymore for a new cam? Looking at what Summit or Rock Auto stocks, but open to other purveyors. I've read a lot of mixed reviews on Comp and others lifters, but not sure if Melling, Sealed Power, Trick Flow are decent anymore or a crapshoot. I'm sure some of the bad reviews could be due to a variety of prelube procedures and products or lack thereof.

The cam I plan to run isn't anything huge for a 350. It's a Summit 1202 "Pro SBC" 4/7 swap. I think it will be small enough for decent mileage, but make decent power and not overly aggressive ramps or lift for my Comp 981 Springs with 1.6 rockers.

Summit Pro SBC Stage 3 Hydraulic Flat-Tappet 4/7 Firing Order Swap Cam, 218/228 Dur., 109 LSA + 2 Adv, .465/.473 Lift, 1500-5800 RPM Range, SB Chevy

 

Maybe talk to mike jones from jones cams for lifters

 

Anything made by Johnson Hy-Lift...

 

This..

And this...

 

Planning on switching out to some Johnson linked w/ axle oilers on my 6.2L D1SC Sierra- story for another day.

When I was researching those I thought Johnson was different than Johnson Hylift...

 

I've researched this too.
Johnson for rollers. Johnson-Hylift for flat.
And FWIW, both are recommended by a cam designer of known reputation. That's the Mike Jones of Jones Cams.

 

I see no reason to use them with SBC Engines anymore...

Even my Big Block Buick Engines are now all Hydraulic Roller.

 

Unless Mr V, it's a rules mandate.
And it's a safe bet that's where the majority of these SBC lifters go. The circle track guys, according to my sources, consume thousands of sets a year.
Personally, I've been roller cammed since I got back into the hobby in the early 2000's. Mind you that was after my flat tappet cam and lifters self destructed from a combination of poor engine oil, high mileage, consistent abuse and admittedly, a poor maintenance routine. It cost me a fully remachined block and rotating assembly, not to mention an oil pump. Also, the residual debris appeared to have done a number on the lifter bores and preload couldn't be maintained. Even with new hydraulic roller lifters.
But at $750+ a set for hydraulic rollers (for the good stuff like Johnson) I can understand the allure of the simple flat tappet.

 

You are absolutely right!
I was not being fair or even realistic.


Even though I do not want to admit it...
This is because I very much like the Benefits of the Roller Lifter.

But the lack of Rollers to fail is a benefit (Bushings have their place too)...
As is the spinning motion of the Lifters in the Lifter Bores.

So to be fair, there are advantages and disadvantages to both Flat and Roller Lifter Designs that should not be discounted.

If Motor Oils had never changed in regard to the removal of ZDDP and similar Compounds...
There would be even more argument to keep a Flat (ironic as they truely are NOT flat) Lifters in more applications.

 

Conversely, the simplicity of the flat tappet is offset not only by the price but by the lack of additional components that are required with a roller. Although the OEM roller has the retention plates and anti-rotation apparatus (spider plate and dog bones) the retro-fit has the link bar held together with rivets. Guess what failed on my own lump? One rivet's undoing unravelled the whole ball of yarn.
It also exposed the weakness of having a higher performance street engine that has seen a lot miles and RPM. Ultimately, something has to give. To the tune of several thousand dollars for a replacement valvetrain to boot. (it's all trash)

 

Good break-in assembly lube and break-in oil or additive. I like the Lucas ***-lube for cam & lifters then redline break-in additive for the oil. The cam paste stuff that comes with a lot of cams is good but can wipe off with long cranking/hard starts I've herd.

edit: Lucas is sticky AF, hate if I get it on my hands, wear gloves!

 

i wonder how much stress is actually on the link bar and rivets, if everything is working as it should the lifter shouldnt want to turn. Not saying that it cant fail but i wonder if something else started happening first such as wheel locking up or coming apart or the lobe material failing catching hold of the lifter wheel that then imparted force on the rivet and link bar?

 

It's been pretty much proven that defective lifters are the main reason for cam failure, and not the reduction of ZDDP in motor oil. The crown is machined improperly which prevents the lifter from spinning in the bore the way it should.
Additionally; David Vizard has proven from dyno testing, that flat-tappet cams produce more power than rollers.

Roller lifters can fail too, but for different reasons than flat-tappet failures.

Run what you like...

 

While I agree and ideally would be heading that direction, the budget for this 'build' dictates otherwise. The reason in this case is I'm taking a 40 over 350 4 bolt I've been sitting on for almost 20 years and building the shortblock with 'spare change' to slide into place of the current 40 over 305. Sans cam, this 'build' will be bearings, rings, gaskets, ARP head and rod bolts, and less than $300. Add a hydraulic cam and lifters for a couple hundred more, and still be in under $500, or about the cost of a roller cam.

Something to do at home while I wait to get my Sierra onto the lift (brother in law's shop) some weekend to pull the motor and tear down to figure out what's eating itself alive in the 6.2 after 7k miles on a complete forged piston rebuild.

The cam in the 305 is a Summit 214/224. The engine was built in July of 2007 and I've put about 13k miles on it since. Broke in with liberal amounts of assembly lube, GM EOS, and Rotella oil. Still use Rotella in it, or VR. I've thought of reusing the cam/lifters, but am afraid I'll be disappointed with the idle and rpm range going into a larger engine. This time "while you're in there" would be relatively inexpensive upgrade, following the same breakin procedure as 2007 unless the cam companies have changed it since then.

Which brings up the point @T.L. mentioned- lifter machining. All the additives in the world won't correct poor machining.

 

I can see this in street Engines.


Not the Case in higher power applications... not even close.

 

Buy good lifters and cam.
Break it in under the recommended guidelines.
Keep quality oil in it. Rotella may not be the best choice as it's a low RPM diesel oil without some of the properties that a higher revving gasoline engine requires (by higher revving I mean beyond 2500 RPM). Anti-foaming agents in particular.
I'd order lifters from Johnson-Hylift and a cam from Jones cams. Or really do your research and find out who has quality cam cores and make your choice. My understanding is that Elgin produces a reliable offering.

 

Not all rotella is diesel oil. Only the 15w-40 i thought was labeled as diesel. Ive run it in my turbo car for a while with no issues but recently switched to amsoil

 

I can't say with certainty if ALL Rotella is diesel. You'd have to check the rating on the jug I suppose.
That said, how likely is it to have a high zinc oil for gasoline engines when the manufacturers have gone out of their to remove it?
Schmidt over at Speed Talk gave a fairly thorough explanation of what's up with that although I couldn't find it with a quick search. If I can dig it up, I'll post it here. It's a recent thread.

 

Zinc (or ZDDP) HAS NOT been removed from motor oils. It's been reduced from around 1200 ppm to 700-800 ppm. The Rotella diesel oil has 1200 ppm, but it is NOT made for gasoline engines. Sure, guys use it anyway because of the 1200 ppm , but it's not ideal. It would be better use an additive with motor oil that is made for gasoline engines. Moreover, there is such thing as too much zinc. Beyond a certain amount, more is not always better.

Like I said previously; most cam failures have been due to improper machining of the lifter faces. Not lack of "zinc" or improper break-in procedure...

 

Two years ago, a friend of mine had the cam wiped in a completely rebuilt MOPAR 440 in the first 22 minutes of break-in. It is the worst I've EVER seen. He followed ALL of the proper break-in procedures TO THE LETTER. He used the Comp Cams break-in oil which has 3,000 ppm of zinc.

So sll these people touting "lack of zinc" for cam failures simply don't know what they're talking about. They're just repeating what they've heard or read from someone else who did the same thing...

 

ZDDP reduced. Sure. Fair enough. But reduced to the point where it's ineffective where it once was.
I'll agree a lot of the failures have to do with crappy parts. Lobes with no taper. Lifters with an incorrect or no crown. There's also the issue with respect to surface hardening and/or the source material.
Some cases point to too high a spring pressure for the initial run-in as well.
But, the oil quality has its place. Particularly with respect to longevity, long after the break-in period had come and gone. Case in point, one of my own early SBCs that I assembled in 2003 had GM original lifters. Circa 1970's. Cam was of 1990's vintage. Brand new Clevite. Break in was uneventful. But 20, 000 miles down the road with engine oil from the early 2000's, all of the lobes and lifter bases got wiped out. I can only point to the oil in that case.
Back in day, like the late 70's, this break-in, when followed, was a non event. And the lifter/cam combination outlasted the rest of the hard parts.

 

You're assuming that the cam or lifters that failed after 20,000 miles were machined properly.
Cam companies NEVER want to admit their products are defective. It's always the fault of the person who installed it, or lack of "zinc", etc., no matter how carefully the owner or installer followed all recommended procedures. The auto manufacturers produced hundreds of millions of engines with flat-tappet cams, and they DID NOT run each and every one of those hundreds of millions of engines for 20 minutes @2000 RPM and then change the oil & filter before sending them out the door. There were a bunch of factory cam failures from GM during the '70s, but for the most part, they lasted 100,000 miles or more, and oil had more ZDDP, but NOT 3,000 ppm like the Comp Cams break-in oil...

 

Anyway, I'm not here to argue.
I know we agree that today's flat tappet lifter and cams, at least on the domestic consumer level, leave a lot to be desired. Poor machining as you've stated is at the top of the list. Poor metallurgy too. It's certainly buyer beware. This is why I recommended two sources for lifters and cams.
For the record, if you want the straight scoop on this whole schlomozzle, do a word search at Speed Talk. There are industry experts there that make their livelihood with this stuff and I trust what they have to say. I bet you'll take it all in too.
Quality lifters.
Quality cam.
Quality oil.
Proper break-in.
Go racing with impunity.

 

'Sorry, but there is no way the auto manufacturers did that. Multiply 20 minutes of run time plus the time to change oil & filter times millions of engines per year. There aren't enough hours in a day running 3 shifts around the clock for 7 days-a-week. Not to mention double the oil and filters, and man-hours. They were in business to mass-produce and make money, not spend extra time and money.

My '73 Ford was still running good (albeit tired) at 186,000 miles when I pulled it out and swapped in a fresh motor, the last 10 years of its operation with the reduced ZDDP content in oil. Most of those trashed engines in the junkyards were not maintained, and driven into the ground by careless owners before or soon after reaching 100,000 miles...

 

I said nothing of run time, oil or filters. I only said they fired each engine and ran it. I'd you think they wouldn't determine that the thing worked, you don't understand auto manufacturing.
By the way, it was two shifts, 5 days a week.

Enough from me.
I hope the OP finds good lifters.
EDIT: I've added some relevant information below.

 

For the record:


It's called manufacturing. And like the necessary evil and burden of having a Q.A. department, it's part of the process.

 

I'm well aware of what manufacturing is.
And if you consider running an engine for 1 minute or less a "cam break-in", I don't know what to say.

Bottom Line is; the whole ZDDP thing is nothing but a scape-goat for what the real cause of cam failures is...

 

Not sure how you'd do a final balance and timing in a minute but whatever. The point is they DO fire the engine on natural gas contrary to your earlier denial that this happened.
Anyway, I'm not arguing that poor quality parts are adding to the problem. Repeat: I'm NOT arguing your point at all. I support it.
BUT, the fact remains that oil isn't what it used to be.
I'll bet you the cost of cam and lifters that your wouldn't break-in your new cam without a specialized oil. Would you? I doubt it.
And I doubt you'd use a conventional oil for the duration of its lifetime either.
FWIW, one of the best cam designers/grinders in the country recommends a specialty oil for break-in. Further to that it's suggested that a lightweight spring be used if the running spring is over the top.
Surely, there's something to be said for that.

Buy good parts.
Use quality oil.
Keep on top of maintenance.
Enjoy.

 

Dude, today's motor oils are BETTER than they've EVER BEEN in the past. Sure, ZDDP has been reduced by about 400 (600 on the extreme end) ppm, but that's easy to remedy with a ZDDP additive. I'm not disagreeing with any of the things you've said on this topic OTHER THAN about MFGs breaking-in flat tappet cams, and today's motor oils causing cam failures.
And you are one of the members here who's knowledge about these cars I value the most, so it's nothing personal...

 

I have seen more issues with shoddy machining than anything else. Lifters without a radius and cams cores that have lobes dead center in the lifter bores.

 

EDITED: Because I wasn't finished.

 

EDITED: Because my previous reply was cut short due to other obligations.

Interesting. I wasn't commenting on the engine oil being worse today, just different.
I can confidently say that today's oils are part of the reason my daily 06 Tahoe is approaching 350,000 miles. That and EFI. So I'm with you on that.

As for MFG's breaking in cams, I can't say anymore than I have. Obviously they did something right. And it wasn't superpower alloys that did it.

Now, your saying I said that today's oils are causing failures, well, I didn't say that. But I did say, and the mountain of evidence points to, that today's oils with reduced additives play a part. Nothing more. Nothing less. I trust the race engine builders on that one. Maybe they were combating poor quality and that was the defense? I'll concede and give you that.

But I go by what I said. I bet no one has the guts to buy the best of the best parts and use a generic engine oil to get the break-in done without some kind of super additive. It's mechanical suicide. wouldn't you agree?

One of the items you've mentioned is the quality of today's parts. Particularly those that are available to the everyday guy who just buys what Rock Auto sells. That sir, is it in a nutshell. Buy crap. Get crap.

By the way, thanks for the props. I only provide information based on my personal experiences or that of others in my "fleet" of racing friends. I do tend to thrive on the science of it all. It never ceases to amaze me.

 

This is exactly what T.L. and I are discussing. Somehow my agreement with his reply was lost.
Poor machining. Lifters with no crown. Cams with no taper.
Poor metallurgy. Cam cores of suspect origin.
It all adds up to a bad result.
No matter the oil used.

 

This was a Comp Cam. 3 or 4 lobes were like this. It was pulled out and returned. Nothing would have saved those lobes from destruction as it would never have spun the lifters.


This was the replacement from Howards.

 

What year would you say that COMP cam was?
There have been changes there in the last decade(?) or so and there are rumblings that the quality may have taken a nosedive. And of course there are those that say all of COMPs stuff has been crap forever.

 

A year ago maybe. If this tells you anything, the only Comp cams I have bought in a decade are roller and I had one of those come apart on me. Steel core roller for me now. Preferably on a GM core. Which is why I bought several of those $100 GM 6492' roller cams. Including a new GM steel cam, I can get the GM steel cam reground cheaper than buying a cast core Comp cam.

 

This is a decision I'll have to make in a month or so (really hoping the CDN dollar rebounds some against the USD because a 36% premium is painful !).
I'm more or less set on Jones Cams doing the heavy lifting for me. Once I have all of the pertinent measurements from my cylinder heads it'll be another cam recommendation from them (lobe intensity more than anything because I'm zeroed in on the specifications...I think) and then some time to science out if I can do what I want to do. That is once I've figured that out too.
Hydraulic roller for sure.
Johnson lifters.
PAC springs.
But the cam core is up in the air. That'll be where I lean on Mike Jones for advice.

 

That cam failure I mentioned earlier in a MOPAR 440 was a Comp cam, and was 2 years ago...

 

I also recommend steel cores for any roller cam. All my comp steel core cams were amazing, no issues. My latest one seems to be heat treated differently than the rest but so far its working.

 

In a conversation I had with Mike Jones (of Jones Cams) about COMP, he mentioned this:

In January 2020, Competition Cams was acquired by private equity group Industrial Opportunity Partners.

He said after that, he had no idea where they received their raw goods from. Specifically talking about cam cores. Might have been lifters too but I don't recall.
Anyway, that kind of put them on the avoid radar and I began noticing a few stories. Now here's two more and recent too.

My preference is US sourced and made. There's a level of QA that I don't think exists in other parts of the world.
The COMP hydraulic roller cam that was destroyed by a blown lifter tie-bar rivet, will set me back $400 USD for a replacement. Jones cams are $480 to start. His more complex lobe profiles go for closer to $600.
I know the Jones cores are made in the US. That $80 difference is not significant in the least for that guarantee.
The lifter that let go was also COMP. Their short travel tool steel version. In all fairness to those lifters , they were high mileage units. They were reused in the last engine refresh and beat on I think a little too much for seniors. Prior to that they did everything I needed. Lots of RPM and 35,000 miles. I don't think they were for fit 7000 RPM. But that puts me in the position of needing replacements. While those COMPs were excellent (up to the point they weren't) they were manufactured more than 20 years ago and the country of origin was touted to be all US.
Today? Still says made in the US at Summit. How deep that goes I don't know. They're $720.
Johnson's 2112SBR race roller is $800. All US. And looks to be through and through. That's another no-brainer for purchase.
None if it is cheap but really, that's just getting started. It would be easy to double those costs.

 

COMPs 12-433-8, XR288HR I mentioned is a street roller and is listed as "special material" in the lobe catalogue. The next step up is the steel billet race roller.
If I understand correctly, Jones' are tool steel but I'd have to clarify that.

 

Just a couple of comments after now reading the last 20 or so Posts...

I hardly use any Cast-Iron Camshafts anymore...
But when I do, I will purchase a Blank or a Finished Camshaft from Brian Tooley.
I have had great luck with Brian Tooley (although I do not know where his Blanks come from... I think Comp Cams).

Also I have been happy with the Grinds when I have purchase Finished Camshafts from him.

Question:
-When you guys assemble your engines, don't you set the Base Ignition Timing by the Balancer before you start the Engine for the 1st time?

The more people I ask, the more I hear: "No".
Well, why the heck NOT?


The way that I teach Engine assembly is:
-Degree Cam.
-Confirm Timing Set Indicator-Dots are together (6 O'clock Top, and 12 O'clock Bottom).
-Rotate Engine around so #1 Cylinder is at TDC, but with the Timing Set positioned 12 O'clock Top, and 12 O'clock Bottom.
-Now rotate Engine from TDC on the Balancer to 30*.

The Engine will now start with a base timing of 30* for Break-In.

 

i guess maybe good for distributors. I always tried to stab them in when motor at tdc, and if fuel tune is good/close it would fire

but with the crank trigger deals and coil packs it’s basically similar situation. Align the hall effect to the tooth the right way and everything works usually lol.

but thats the main reason i wouldnt ever recommend a flat tappet in a new combo thats efi. Unless your base tune is pretty good and close, you may not beable to do the break in right away and need to make a few changes in order for it to operate at 2000-2500 for whatever 15-25 min or so. With aftermarker efi, with hopefully wideband autocorrections, it may be alot easier since it will tune it for you to get by.

 

he offers several cores depending on applications.

but also remember there are really only a few core manufacturers out there and many many more cam companies lol they all source from those few places

 

I like the simplicity of a flat tappet.
Here is something for the other dinosaurs like myself, because I have actually done this.
If you want a good indicator for your FT cam & lifters to survive the break-in, do this:
Use a Sharpie or paint marker to put a mark on the top of the tappet.
NO LUBES on lobes (except oil the journals) - cam installed with timing set, drop the lifters in and rotate the crankshaft.
If the correct relationship between the lobe and tappet is there, the lifter will rotate!
YES, no valvetrain installed, just the weight of the lifter.
The rotation happens on the closing ramp.
If all sixteen do not pass this test, then there is a very good chance that your engine will soon be trash if you proceed.
The flat tappet lifter MUST rotate!!!
For any reason, the instant that a flat tappet stops rotating, you now have a lathe.

 

Nice tip. I am just lazy lol id rather spend abit more for a roller and slap it in lol. Same with shaft rockers now. Once i started using them i dont think i’ll ever use regular stud mounts again lol

 

Does anyone remember the Simpsons...
And Homer looking at doughnuts, drooling and saying: "Mmmm.... Doouughnuuts" ?

Well:
Mmmm...... Shaft Rocker Arms.....

 

I put the cam in 1st, followed by the lifters if it is a flat tappet engine, spin the cam and watch them rotate. That is how the problem above was found.

 

Yep. That's pretty much the case. But I trust the cores he gets as opposed to guessing where the others are from.

You have to define "a bit more".
Isky's best flat solid lifters are $300/set. Their best solid rollers are $1000.
That's quite a bit.
But I guess if you want to play, you gotta pay.
Speaking of paying, if you want hydraulic roller lifters, Isky's best are $1400. (Only using Isky as a guideline).

As for the rockers, I'll be back with stud mount again. There's a $1000 set of rockers ready to go already. Stepping up to a shaft arrangement is pushing $1500.

 

You can get decent street hyd rollers for way less than 1000$. Ideal is using ls7 style in factory dog bone deals. If you are making a very serious engine combo then flat tappet shouldnt even be an option in my opinion. And by serious i mean some very good hp per cubic inch setups pushing limits of pump gas and such. But even your typical 350-383 with afr 195 heads looking for 450-500 hp a roller just makes sense. Sure you can do it with a flat but gotta take the extra steps to make sure what you are getting is good quality machined right and worry about break in procedures

and shaft rockers should be on the serious builds as well, but big advantage is exact geometry. You can move the shaft to position rocker tip exactly centered and at mid lift geometry if desired, depending on the rocker design. Jesel doesnt use mid lift. And pushrod measurement is easier. Shaft height sets geometry first then connect the dots between lifter and rocker cup lol simple