Agreed 5L5!

 

I like cheese tOO!

 

No it wasn't. Same year vs same year the Camaro came out on top most of the time. All this Mustang hoopla revolves around the fact that the 302 is easy to mod and can be made very fast very easily due to the low weight of some models of the Mustang. Unfortunately for all you blind defenders the GT except for 2 years lost to the Z28 or IROC's "best" engine (350 or 305) I think 82 and 86 were the exceptions.

I found a link to one page backing up my statement, I don't feel like researching it further but suffice it to say that there IS a page out there with the proper data, this is just what I found in a pinch.
Random Mustang vs Camaro Comparison page

 

I could have swore i saw a website where 2 years were the only times a 350 won, but then again, websites are the most accurate.

 

Someone should check the whitebook, I remember reading the same thing in a hard copy format, somewhere...
Remember we're talking STOCK VS STOCK SAME YEAR VS SAME YEAR not 1982 Ceasefire 305 vs 1993 Mustang Cobra.

 

I don't know how much this page can back you up. I just looked at some of the times and they are very inconsistent and somewhat inaccurate. Does anyone honestly think the 1993 GT Mustang runs a 16.1@85.1 according to Motor trend? Oh wait...it DID run that but the website fails to mention it was a AOD GT convertible (i know cuz i read it)...which is one of the slower Mustangs. But on the camaro side i see it noted where the times are for a convertible. Also, they don;t take notes to which transmission was used. If MT tests an automatic 86GT (which they did)they will get slower times than if they tested a 5-spd. But if they test a 5-spd camaro for the same year, then you can't fairly compare the times. Also, all the Mustangs from 87-93 are virtually identical...but i see times ranging as much as 1 second. This is because of transmission and body type but it's not noted.

Take a 5-spd stripped down 87-88 notchback LX and it will run circles around an GT AOD convertible in reverse with two spark plugs yanked out.

If you really wanted to compare the fastest cars from each year from Ford and Chevy, then you need to use an Iroc 5.7L and a 5-spd LX notch. (LX = Less eXtras)Those are the fastest models from each manufacturer. Sure the 5.7L has more power stock, but the 5-spd and the lightness of the notch even it out. These two cars should be a drivers race.

 

I agree, that page has alot of BS on it.

 

I've got a book with stock 1/4 mile times from Magazine tests for every Fox body Mustang ever made. If anyone wants me to post them, I'll try to find a few minutes tonight to do so.

 

Since 67 the Camaro has mostly been the faster car but sometimes the cars traded places in acceleration. During the Third Gen the 5.0 did lose to the L98 a few years top model for top model, and I'm sure that some LB9 5-Speed G92's could take the heavier 5.0's. Seen both happen before so its gotta be right, just not sure how each did 305 vs. 305 during the earlier years.

 

Going by that site, in 1987 the 350 went:

14.88 @ 92.87
14.89 @ 92.15
14.9 @ 95
15.3 @ 90 (Road and Track)

The Mustang GT has:

14.6 @ 96
15.13 @ 94.1
15.3 @ 93 (Road and Track)

So far in 87 the Mustang is faster!!!

The Mustang LX has:

14.17 @ 99
14.43 @ 95.88 (Road and Track)
14.8 @ ?

I'm not saying these times are valid, I don't believe a few of them, but here clearly the Mustang was faster. The GT has a 14.6, the LX has a 14.1 (I don't believe) and the Iroc has a 14.8.

Even if you look at road and track, the 15.3 and 15.3 for the two was the same but look at the mph!!! Also the LX in RandT went 14.43!!! I don't see how this makes the Camaro faster!

 

Just curious which 305 we're talking about. If it's the HO, maybe you won't lose by too much, but if it's the LG4 or Crossfire...

 

I'm glad the mustang guys post here to get the truth out.

 

I am posting that directly from the website he gave. He claims the Camaro was faster all but two years!!!

 

Here are the facts form that site!!!

............Camaro...............Mustang
Year....1/4....MPH..........1/4.......MPH
1987..14.8....92...........14.1.......99
1988..14.9....95...........14.7.......94
1989..14.6.....?.............14.7........?...........14.2......98
1990..14.4....96...........14.6.........?
1991..14.6.....?.............14.6.......97
1992..14.6.....?.............14.4.......93
1993..14.0....100..........14.4.......97

All thse facts are straight from the site, and according to these there is no one car that dominates! Both are consistently mid 14s, and they went back and forth.

Note: in 1989 the Saleen on the right went 14.2 but I didn't count it, and in 1993 the numbers were from the 1993 Cobra because there is no LX given!

No flaming, just pointing out what the wabsite says!

 

OK guys, how about a hypathetical situation where a 198x IROC 350 was offer with a manual tranny. If the TPI 350 had been matched to a manual (like a 4+3 in a vette or a 6 speed) how much faster would the 350 be than a ford 302 of the same year? I think it's crap that the only good motor in a thirdgen gets a POS slushbox. Any idea what it might run? If everything else it stock of course.

 

wow, what changed from '87-'88 that the Stang lost 6/10ths.

 

Nothing...'88 was a carryover year. Not a single change was made other than T-tops being phased out mid-88


Proof that you can't trust magazine times.

Honestly, magazines should get a 1/4 mile time by taking 100 different cars and 100 different drivers and averaging their times. It's the only real way to do it

 

that website is definately not accurate. They list that there was an L98 in '86 first of all, and the track times are terrible. They claim that an '86 iroc (didn't say which engine, probably LG4) went 16.2 at 91.3 mph ??? 91.3 mph is good for like a 15.2 I liked how the '86 Mustang SVO fourbanger turbo ran 15.1's stock. Was the GT faster than that in '86? The 302's were still carbed that year right? That website gets sketchy...

~Matt

 

The SVOs stock could definately run 15.1 and some can hit high 14s!!! I don't believe most of the times either, because they say the 87 went 99. 99 is quite a jump from the 93-95 they normally run stock. I ran 99 (not powershifting) and I have quite a few more mods than a stock one.

I was just showing that according to that site the Camaro was not faster every year but 2.

 

86 GT's were good for high 14's with a 5 speed. That was the first year they were fuel injected.

 

Can someone please answer my question of what would happen if the TPI 350 had been offered with a manual like it should have? I would like to know how it would fair againt a mustang then.

 

I would say about the same. The 5 spd isn't really that much better than an auto when you look at it. The only reason the 305/5spd was so quick, is if it had the G92 option, it had 3:42s compared to 2:73s, that is why it is quicker, not cause it's a 5 spd.

Autos are better for drag racing anyways, maybe I shouldn't have said that, don't want to start another war.

 

if the L98 had been matched with the T-5, i believe it may have been faster. Sometimes manual cars get motre hp than auto, and people who can drive stick well can blow away auto times. From what i've heard though, the T-5 can't stand much power or abuse and the stronger T-56 was made for the 4th gens for better gearing performance and to withstand more power. I don't know where the stock stall is on the L98 (probably 1500-2000rpms) but it wouldn't be too bad on the tranny unless you did huge drops at like 3,000-4,000rpms. I'm no T-5 or L98 expert, but usually you can get more performance and more control out of a stick car.

~Matt

 

Most of the performance advantage comes from the fact that manuals are traditionally geared better than auto's. For example, the T5's have a 2.95 first gear. Compare that to a 2.46 first gear in a Ford AOD and you can quickly see why the 5 speed Mustangs were so much quicker than the AOD cars. I think the GM automatic transmissions have better first gears (2.80something?) and there wouldn't be much benefit in swapping to a T5.

my .02

 

3.08 1st gear in the 700R4.

 

The only reason I could see that an auto would be "better" is for bracket racing where you want consistancy. In a true heads up race between 2 indentical cars with the same motor, one having a manual, and one having an auto, I bet on the manual. A stock automatic has a low stall speed. Plus, an auto still has a converter and some power will always be lost in converter slip. I think that if the TPI 350 had recieved a manual all the mustangs would be running scared.

 

Actually Nic the T-5 has a 3.35 first gear, the World Class T-5 has a 2.95 first!!!

I think it would be slightly faster with a 5-speed only because of less drivetrain loss! But that also makes the Camaro driver have to earn his race a little more! All in all it would still be a drivers race. And remember it would then have 2.73 (if GM offers a 2.73) gear out back!!!

 

Anyone know the gearing on a T-56?

Oh, and on the original subject, yeah the Mustang is gonna beat the 305.

Those later thirdgen Foxbodies look awesome, but I still prefer my Iroc.

 

3.08 1st gear? DAMN!!!! I want one of them!

 

anytime...i was head to head with a notch with same mods, i had lower gears (3.42s) i believe, dont know if his was stock or not (could have been 3.23s or 3.55s) and i had a person in my car, he did not. i dont want to rag on the stangs, but they werent anything to sneeze at. the only reason a lot of 305s were slow was because of the peanut cam, ultimately yes the 305 is a tad bit slower, but nowhere will it blow it outta the water. with the right matchup i think high 12s is possible with cam/heads/intake...especially with the holley stealthram. not to say a stang wont beat me, but the only 5.0 stang i lost to was my buddies low mid 12 stang (put 3 on me before the intersection). every 94/95, that notch and i tied, i raced a few GTs (nothing great). i mean that guy whos running 13.9 @ 99mph has a lower gear ratio than me, wider tires, a tb, and intake...wanna give me a 52mm tb, 3.73s, some wider tires, and bet i wont run 13s??? i may not trap high as him, but i GUARANTEE i can pull the same et. oh yea, let me take off the a/c, and get rid of some other heavy stuff, cuz arent mustangs light??? sorry i get pissed when u people say the only thing comparable to a 302 is a 350, give the 350 a stick and watch the 302 dissappear, the 94/95 stangs are fine examples of what happens when u detune it (like the 305s AT 90-92 215hp/285) and give it more weight, ive seen a gt like that with every bolt on, heads, cam, run mid 13s, high 14s to low 15s stock. shake fords hand for giving them a FOX BODY, thats the reason tehy are fast. i cannot wait to really **** you ford owners off when my stock internal stang beats most of ur stangs w/exhaust and gears, cuz i can name 2 idiot stang owners who put the biggest on their cars, didnt match ****, and run 14s with cam/heads/intake.

 

Yes, but the 2nd gear ratio , forget it, doesn't help to well I hear, cause it's a big drop off.

 

yes the 5spd helped it be quicker, also...i dont know about the pre 90 cars but i do know that i got the L98 cam stock, im sure that helped a bit, ya know peak hp isnt everything, theres a curve to this ****...u just dont run 270hp at fly at 4200rpms, there are a few rpms below that and above, once again, the 5spd camaros got the same hp/torque #s stock. and isnt sd better for stock cars??? that giving us another advantage, screw that 3.42s, the stangs were SOOOO much lighter, put 4 50lb sandbags in their trunk and watch their times drop a tenth or two....give me one more year, its all im asking you then i will show you what a nicely tuned, 305 5spd car can do...until then...expect me at every post defending this car...

 

This one is getting interesting...

 

He 90Iroc-Zee, look at Mustang5L5s car. He a similar time of 14.4 at 98. He had a stock motor with gears and an auto. I am not flaming just saying that you can run with him with a slightly lower trap and he has an auto. A stick in his car would put him in the 13s!!!

 

I ran the 14.4 @ 98MPH with headers (not that the stock headers were much of a restriction on a stock motor), off-road H-pipe, cat back exhaust, 3.73's and pullies. That was also witha spinning 2.4 60-footer. The motor and transmission were 100% as delivered from Ford 15 years ago (minus the pulleys). I didn't do anything to the tranny so it still had it stock stall converter (1800 i think?) and mushy granny shifts that take about 5 seconds to complete.

My car also weighed 3390 with me in it when i did my best run. That was fully loaded with 1/2 tank of gas on a full-optioned LX with the A/C intact (i NEED A/C...hell and everything will have to freeze before I ditch it)

I haven't run it since i've added the Cobra Intake, 65mm TB, Kirban AFPR, phenolic spacer, electric fan and better rear tires. Car is definitely faster but i don't have the peice of paper proving it yet

Now that the cold dry new england fall is setting in...car goes faster...muhahahaha

 

Exactly.

 

I seriously doubt that, according to the fore mentioned quote, of give the 350 a 5spd and watch the 302 dissappear.

 

yeah Mark, the 700R4 goes from 3.08 to like 1.74 to 1 to .7 or .6 It's pretty bad. In the thirdgens you can really feel it drop after first and especially into drive.

~Matt

 

Well if Mark is convinced that there is no way a 350 matched to a good manual would be any faster than a 302 5 speed, then maybe we should fight over whether Ford's direct port fuel injection was better than TPI. The old moto always was that TPI was the best truck motor that GM ever put in a car. But I think that both systems are designed for low end torque, even though the 302 should be better suited to high RPMs.

I still say that if a 350 had been offered with a good manual stock that it could stomp on most stock mustangs.

Edit:
That is from Chris AKA taturbo

 

Yeah, how 'bout post the Cars Illustrated one with the bone stock notch that ran 13s.

Chris

 

well my TOTALLY STOCK 88 LX with 3.08's went 14.7@96
on REAL radials. 2.2 60ft.

AND I dont think a 350 stick would beat a 5.0 stick.

 

You mean the one that went 13.90 @ 98.80 in the August '87 issue?

 

All this bickering aside... How many of us have actually weighed our cars (thirdgens)? Saying the mustangs were a lot lighter is not a complete truth. The specs I've seen for thirdgen F-bodies suggests that the only 3400 lb thirdgens were IROC 350's and Formula 350's. According to my calculations, with what I've removed from my car (about 100 lbs), it should weigh in at a nice lean 2980 lbs... now if notchback mustangs came @ 3000 lbs (weren't they lighter?) then there is absolutely no weight advantage... versus me that is.

I would say that the 350 SBC vs 302 is a drivers race, there are so many factors in favor of the 302... basically being de-stroked 350's themselves.

 

ok what does a 305 TPI camaro weigh stock??
the sticker on my v6's door says 3800lbs
am i missing something here??

i thought the v6 weighed less than the v8's??

 

That sticker doesn't apply to your car necessarily, but to the F-body class in general. The V-6 is lighter, obviously.
My 89 Iroc 5.7 w/ t-tops weighed in at 3580lbs. that was with factory louvers, 3/4 tank of gas, and stock Bose radio set-up, and hatch cover. (nobody in car) That's rather porky in my opinion!
Either way the original question has been answered correctly.
It's nice that we have cool Mustang owners over here!! Their "real" info helps keep this from getting really blown out of proportion and being too one-sided.
Even though the Camaro is gone, the stop light racing between the Rival Mustang & Camaro will continue forever

 

My coupe was 3015 with me, but minus a/c, smog, sway bar, w/lightweight wheels. My convertible was 3360 w/me w/completely stripped down interior, no sway bar, light weight wheels.

My coupe now weighs 2910 w/me.

 

If that was Tony Defeo's(sp?) 87 LX, then yes...

2910, eh? Damn that's insane...

Chris

 

Yeah really, I think I'm up around the 3600lb area.

 

i know that curt86iroc's 86 iroc weighed almost exactly 3400lbs. He has a 305 LG4 and he weighed it before he ran at the track so the weight is with him in it.

~Matt

 

what does he have in it? t-tops, power accessory wise.

I have power locks, doors, hatch., t-tops, and I think that is it. But all emissions and ac is out now.