I don't race and I am not the most well-informed person about import capability, but when I read or hear someone talking about racing imports, why is it they always race on the highway at top end? I'm always hearing "imports have better top-end", but I've always assumed that rear-wheel drive is better for top end, because the weight shifts to the back at higher speeds, while front-wheel drive is best from a stop.

Plus, wouldn't the extra horsepower of most muscle cars give them an even greater advantage at top end, where (I think, correct me if I'm wrong) horsepower plays a greater role than torque up high?

It just seems to me that the import crowd likes to race up-top, even though that isn't their strength, I've always thought they would be better down low, with the front wheel drive from the stop coupled with the low weight of the car, and as the car gets faster horsepower and the rear-wheel drive come into play.

So, is this just a myth that imports are better at top-end, or are they really that much better at top end?

 

I dont know.......A stock F-body (say 4th gen) does 150 MPH. A stock Honda/Acura-DSM-Nissan-Toyota (with the exception of 300/350ZX and the Supra) say a 135MPH.

all of this = 'import myth'

 

ricers race on the hiway at top end because they can rev it to 43,567 rpms..and make all of there 156 horse @42,000 and they have the 7.89 gears to help it out to 130 in 3 minutes

lmao....the like racing on top end because the make all there horse at 7000 or so and have the gears to help it out...

they wont race form a stop because they will get smoked everytime and they know this

 

because they have no bore they can make no low end power, but their long stroke allows them to revv and make their power higher....

 

Umm. I think you're exactly backward. They have a decent bore and no stroke so they make high end HP but no bottom end torque.

 

haha, thats funny. musta been thinkin backwards when i typed that

 

YOU are thinking backwards when discussing imports!!! ...when you look in the rear view...that is backwards.

 

one of my buddys has an accord with an h22 (prelude engine) swap. he stays with me top end even though he runs 15.2 and i run 13.9. it is because of vtec. if anyone has ever rode in a vtec car they will back me up.. its amazing, its almost like a small turbo. however dont mistake what i am saying to think that i like rice, i disagree with the spending of 5000 dollars that my friend did to make his car run slower that my car does for free.

 

Your friend is an idiot.

I'd like to show him some domestic top end first hand. My car doesnt even wake up until 80mph.

-Doug

 

Only car that's ever outran mine on the top end is a 500 rwhp turbocharged 5.0.

If you can break traction at 100 mph you're out of my league.


WTF? Have you ever been in a physics class? Ever heard of Newtons 1st Law?

 

Ditto for me..I raced a little bubbleback civic about two weeks ago which had a worked integra GSR motor in it. And he took me for a little while then around 80 mph i passed him like he was standing still.(i did spin for a while off the line) And we raced from a roll and it was even a bigger joke. I jumped him immediately from a 60mph roll and just kept pulling.

 

I think there is confusion between top end and high rpm.

Top end is top speed, or acceleration at high speeds.

High rpm is the ability to rev a motor at high rpms and still make power.

Now obviously, almost all V8 motors - domestic/import pushrod/DOHC can't rev as high as a small, built for high rpm 4 cylinder. Just the way it is - physics and emissions mostly. So when some ding-aling says he can beat you in his 8000rpm DOHC four and you have a 6000 rpm pushrod eight, you have full permission to grin and chuckle.

Top end is the ability of a car to maintain high speed and/or acceleration at high speeds. I'll admit some high rpm motors pull well at high speeds - Ferrari, Porsche, and some 6 cylinder jap rides do well. But typically they are small motors and were meant to rev to make power. I don't think a 200hp Prelude can accelerate as strongly as a 250hp L98. The L98 would also have a lot higher top speed too.

I have a Vtec motor in my Acura - it is only a 3.2 Liter motor, but make 260hp at 6000+ rpm. I raced a friend's L98 IROC and he ate me alive from a dead stop (4 or 5 cars easy). We then raced from a roll and we were dead even till about 100mph. But since the Acura and the IROC both do 150mph, that is to be expected. Don't expect a 135mph car to do so.

BTW, you don't hear of too many non-turbo 175mph imports out there, but GM makes one that does it stock (Vette).

 

Most of the import guys around here will try to start a race on the interstate (starting at 70-80mph)...and they'll still be losing badly to most decent domestic V8s . The domestic driver will hit the brakes by 110-120 or so usually, the race being over, and the import guy will keep on going, eventually passing the domestic who is no longer interested. It doesn't matter that he passes 5 miles down the road, in the *****'s eyes he just "wasted" a "domestic pos"!!! THAT is why they like to run top end!

There are plenty of fast imports that don't have to resort to these tactics (Supras, DSMs, RX7s, 300ZXTTs, etc), so I'm not knocking them or saying American muscle can't be beat.

 

The reason they like to race at high speeds is that an 55-120 mph race provides several minutes of enjoyment.

Ive heard that before that people will beat me on the top end though they may lose off the line. I dont know about them, but when I floor it at 75, I get pinned in the seat and am still there as Im going over 100. The fastest Ive been in an import was 93 and that was in my friends mom's Acura 3.2. That was by far the fastest import any of us have been in, and though its never raced my Trans Am, neither one of us beleives it has a prayer of a chance anywhere.

On the VTECH note, a kid I know had an accord with the 2.2 VTECH. You can feel VTECH kicking in, like a small turbo. However the only reason you can feel it is because it was making really crappy power before and now its making just crappy power. The kid took me on a road and got up to 90. I thought it was quick, then took my 2.8 out on that road a few days later, and low and behold, hit 90 in the same distance.

 

why do people call dsm imports they are made in the usa

 

Hondas are made in the USA too, but they're still imports. The $$$ trail goes to Japan.

A DSM , whether it has an Eagle, Mitsu, or Chrysler label on it, is still a Japanese car. All the drivetrains are made by Mitsubishi, the fine people who brought us the Zero and WWII!!!

 

There may be some (distorted) truth to the fact that some imports do have good top end.

For instance, when I run at the track next to low 12 second supras or RX-7's, I am always ahead at the 1/8th mark. They seem to come flying by at the last second.

However, anyone with a honda just needs to shut up. I eat up turbo integras/motor swap civics like candy.

There are a ton of them on the streets here in chitown.

-Doug

 

First of all - RWD (Rear Wheel Drive) is INCREDIBLY better than FWD coming off the line!!! When you accelerate, the weight of the car goes backwards -- coming OFF of the front wheels, and onto the rear! This means that a FWD car will spin MUCH easier than a RWD. The only imports that have an advantage are a few DSMs, or Subarus who have AWD.

A good friend of mine has a '95 Talon Tsi (AWD Turbo), and that thing is quick! He can launch at 4500 RPMs, and not spin - he smacks my IROC off the line every time. The car is a low 15 stock (with 210HP and 215 ft#'s of torque). He has a 3" downpipe, a 3" catback, new Z rated tires, and a rebuilt bottom end...he hasn't run it yet, but its probably a low 14s car.

And yes, DSMs are imports. While the Lasers/Talons come from US manufacturers, the drivetrain for the cars, as well as the Eclipse, come from Japan. If you pop the hood on one of these, you will see Mistu on the engine

Here is what I think you are mistaking (part of this was already said):

-Imports do perform better at high RPM, but not usually at top end.

After 80mph, wind resistance really becomes a factor, and you need torque to push you through it. Non-turbo, non-VTEC (no H ), or non V6 imports rarely have a chance to take a V8 top end.


The only chance a FWD import (non tubro, VTEC) has on a RWD V8 is at the end of its gears. Off the line, the V8 has torque, where the 4 banger has nothing, and after 80 mph, its usually no contest. The only time I've had one scare me is when I was in 2nd gear (of a 700R4); he started to catch back up, but once I hit third gear, he was again about 5-7 car lengths back.

 

"WTF? Have you ever been in a physics class? Ever heard of Newtons 1st Law?
"

Relax dude, like I was saying, I don't know much about racing, take it easy, not everybody has a PhD. in automotive performance. Sheesh, now I realize why I rarely come here, because when I post something somebody has to say something smart. This is no MATTER where I post comments, even in the v6 forum, and even something about technical matters, SOMEBODY has to say something smart.

 

Dont go into a frenzy 92Camrors. Being that I too am an FNG to this site but definately not the Automotive racing world, what needs to be learned is not to overreact. I am quite sure that it wasnt anything meant truely against you, you just havent learned the personalities of some of the people on this site. I too am at fault of this.......

Its like this.......a thread is started, then come the opinions. The next thing thing you know is people forget that you just simply asked a question and have forgot that you may not know as much as the next person.... then it gets all blown out of shape, (egos are to blame for this and were all at fault). But its nothing against you personally UNLESS you continually do some real bonehead things, it reminds us of Monkie, the Stainless Steel Big Block Kid and few others......

Just think of your question before hand and make your best judgement on weather or not you are ready to deal with things like this. I know its hard not to take this stuff personally, but were all here for the same thing.....to learn and help each other out building our toys..........

 

that's not a smart comment. Nic is right, you don't have to know about racing to know that weight is going to shift when you accelerate. I have plenty of friends who have little interest in cars but they know a RWD car is better than FWD for launching for the simple reason of weight transfer occuring. Common sense

 

" Just think of your question before hand and make your best judgement on weather or not you are ready to deal with things like this. I know its hard not to take this stuff personally, but were all here for the same thing.....to learn and help each other out building our toys.........."

True, and I agree, although I did probably take it alittle hard, but, I did, and I do come in here alot and ask genuine questions, that I really want to know the answers too. I'm not a gearhead nor am I probably ever going to become one, but some of the information is inconsistent on some very simple stuff. Alot of times I ask a genuine question and the mature guys will give good information without any attitude, it just seems, at least the last 5 times I posted on this site, that somebody has had to say something smart. Sorry if I came across that way, but I was GENUINLY asking this time.

Now, on to the REAL subject, LOL. Yes, I know about weight transfer and all that, BUT, maybe I just have a really out of tune 3.1 or something, but the FWD Crx my bro had ALWAYS took me out of the hole, the same w/ my girls' FWD 99 Lumina. Obviously RWD would come into play more and more as higher speeds are reached (right?), but I'm talking in the 0-30 mph range. But now I'm confused, isn't it the torque that gives the V-8's their strong starts, and not their RWD? I'm talking RWD by itself, in the 0-30 mph range. Anyways, don't the AWD guys have the best out-of-the-hole performance? At least that is what I have seen, AWD guys get the better start, then the V-8's start to work their magic.

I realize there are a lot of factors here, but I'm not taking into consideration the torque of most V-8's, but strictly RWD in and of itself, in the 0-30 mph range. I can't remember how many times I have been told that weight transfer is greater as speeds are increased, and it's less as speed is decreased. But, taking torque out of the equation, which is better out of the hole, in the 0-30 mph range? If RWD is that much better, why is it I always see the AWD guys taking RWD guys out of the hole? Maybe somebody could clarify. Thanks.

 

I apoligize if I came across rude. I just naturally made the assumption that we've all been through introductory level physics here.

At any rate...this really cool guy named Sir Isaac Newton (yea, the same guy that got hit in the head with an apple) came up with some astute observations on motion. In fact, he came up with 3 "Laws of Motion"...

The first law states that every object in a state of uniform motion tends to remain in that state of motion unless an external force is applied to it. In other words...an object that's moving will tend to remain moving and an object at rest will tend to remain at rest unless acted upon by an outside force.

Now let's skip ahead to his third law. It says that for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction. This is a reall important one, so keep it in mind!

Now, for our purposes we're going to pretend that friction doesn't exist. That would be a bad thing, but it simplifies matters in this case.

Imagine, if you will, a car. Heck, let's even draw a picture for you.

The car is at rest, and wants to remain that way until it's acted upon by an outside force. The outside force here is the force of the tires trying to propell the car forward. When you mash the gas, an opposite force tries to propell the car backwards...in other words, the weight of the car is transfered in the opposite direction of the initial force being applied. What happens as a result is that weight is taken off the front two tires and transfered to the rear two tires. This is why you'll see hard hooking RWD cars pick the front wheels up off the ground while the high powered FWD cars often run "wheelie bars" a few inches off the ground in the rear to prevent weight from being transfered to the rear wheels and off the front wheels. You want as much weight over the drive wheels as you can possibly get. So in conclusion...front wheel drive sucks for launching because weight is transfered off the front wheels thus making it easier to lose traction.

As for why you're getting smoked out of the hole by fwd cars...well, with all due respect, look at what you're driving. You're not exactly behind the wheel of a powerhouse.

Yes and no. Given the average rwd street car isn't on the worlds greatest tire and doesn't have a suspension fine tuned to aid in weight transfer, an AWD car will usually kill it out of the hole. Think about it like this...would you rather have 2 tires sticking to the road trying to propell you forward or 4? Which setup gives you the most surface (here's where that friction thing comes into play) area to apply a force propelling you forward? Given a sticky tire and a suspension built to aid weight transfer, the RWD car will be just as good out of the hole.

Class dismissed.

 

Im having a problem visualizing what your saying but Im going to try...Rule no. 1 is torque wins drags.I have a bud who drags and thats what hes told me so Im repeating it.You cant remove torque from the equation because without it you aint moving.Now have you noticed how when you accelerate fast you get pushed bak in the seat?Thats torque causing weight to transfer to the back.It will keep pushing back (at least a little)until you slam on yor brakes and the weight transfers to the front and you end up kissing the windshield!j/k.RWD have spoilers because the increased air pressure at higher speeds pushes down on the rear for more traction.FWD have "wings" to look cool (lol) but no benifit traction wise.Thats also why dragsters have tubbed out fat tires.Theyre trying to get as much of that torque to the ground as possible.Now I look at top end a little different too.I think a person should have their car at the apex of the power band at the 1/4 mi mark so a rwd will begin to flatten out after the race is over.Im not familiar w/ awd so I wont comment other than Id assume theyd behave similar to rwd off the line. I dont know if I helped or not,like I said I was having a problem totally understanding the question and Im kinda new too.

 

I was trying to say what nic said but he beat me to it and said it alot better :rockon:

 

just calm it down a tad

some ppl here get off with some really smart rudish type comments ( not like I give any )

so if they sound like they are making fun of you just ignore them and go on with life

I mean what does some person who is 1000 miles away from you really mean in your life?

 

just want to ask how long it took you to draw that picture and have you thought about art school

 

don't start the torque wins races thing here


my goodnes there are so many different opinions on that

I say moving the torque into the higher rpm range and using the right gearing (Even though peak torque might be less and instead would produce more of hp based motor) would be better then just having gobs or torque down low

but to each there own and everyone has a different opinion

PART OF THE REASON RACING IS SO GREAT

just think if we all thought the same and owned the same car and the same motor b/c there was no opinion as to which one was better and so we would all drive the same car. I mean I guess it wouldn't be so bad knowing that the best car out there right now is a turbo RX7

 

You can just call me Da Vincci.

 

coolies


and how did you become an honary F-body dude

 

True....considering that Horse Power IS torque at a higher RPM. There are two schools of thought here.....and I agree with RX7Speed.....after all what 'miles an hour' better? Torque gets you in motion, and horsepower takes over from there....

 

yea what nic said.....

 

Ok, well first off lets think about what we're talking about. There is a difference between Sport Compact and Import. The Sport Compact crowd is made up of small displacement engines in mostly FWD configuration, be it in a Domestic (Chevy Cavilier, Dodge Neon, Etc) or an Import (Honda Civic, Nissan Sentra). An Import is a car that does not originate from the US. It can be anything from a Lexus V8 to a Toyota Inline 6. I'm assuming you're talking about the Sport Compact crowd.

I think you guys need to stop looking at it from a 'what can this car do' perspective and think about the mentality of people who modify Sport Compacts. Like everything in the Sport Compact world, its a little different from what you guys are used to. When people with Sport Compacts think racing, they think high speed racing from one point to another. The racing points dont even need to be defined like in drag racing or stoplight to stoplight racing, it can just happen unexpectedly on the freeway. So you have to undertand that there is a different idea of racing when you compare the Sport Compact group to the Domestic group.

Now lets think about why they prefer high speed racing to drag racing. You guys pretty much summed it up, it has to do with the way their engines are setup. They will never have the displacement that your domestic engine has. They will never have the torque that your domestic engines have. Their engines are built for high revs ... top end speed (HP), not low end push (TQ). And the power adder they use the most (turbo) is designed to provide power at the top end. So their engine and poweradder setup compliments itself on the top end. Thats why they prefer a top end race.

So you have a bunch of domestic guys who are thinking the race ends at 100 mph or something, so in their mind they win at 100 mph. Because most domestic races are from a stop to a certain point or speed. Nothing wrong with that. On the other hand you have a Sport Compact guy who want to race on the freeway to some exit 10 miles away or something. In his mind the first guy to get there wins. It two different ideas about racing.

 

" As for why you're getting smoked out of the hole by fwd cars...well, with all due respect, look at what you're driving. You're not exactly behind the wheel of a powerhouse.
"

Exactly why I'm moving up to the v8, LOL. (Still pondering if it's gonna be another 3rd gen camaro or 3rd gen 5.0 stang)

"ricers race on the hiway at top end because they can rev it to 43,567 rpms..and make all of there 156 horse @42,000 and they have the 7.89 gears to help it out to 130 in 3 minutes "

That's true, and I didn't take that into account at first, so I guess that explains it. Actually I was just reading something about the Civic Si that was saying the same thing, the whole 160 horses only kicks in at like 7000 RPM's or something. So yea, I didn't take into account where they make their power. But anyways, I was alittle confused at first because a) They like to race up top and b) they get killed alot up top by camaros and stangs!

Taking into consideration these are usually guys who drive civics telling me this, I guess in the end this is typical ***** logic. Peace.

 

" I think you guys need to stop looking at it from a 'what can this car do' perspective and think about the mentality of people who modify Sport Compacts. Like everything in the Sport Compact world, its a little different from what you guys are used to. When people with Sport Compacts think racing, they think high speed racing from one point to another."

Exactly! Exactly the point I was trying to get across, couldn't of said it any better!

 

I beg to differ on that.the best car out there right now would have to be another turbo gem,the lingenfelter TT vette that runs 9's.and then of course comes MY turbo ride,the almighty DSM!!
lets do battle rx7speed!!! (of course you'll beat me right now,for i am broke and i just bought the car and havent had time to save up to mod it much yet ) May the best turbo import win!!or atleast that with more traction!! :hail: AWD

 

I just have one question...how come no one on this board gives any thumbs up to Honda/Acuras NSX. The NSX-R is a 3.0 V6 that puts out 275hp. It's rear wheel drive and i believe can reach around 175-180mph stock. Oh yeah its N/A not FI. Although there is a hefty price tag, you can always remeber cost is in the eye of the beholder.

 

umm FI(fuel injection) can be N/A or have forced induction.FI is just a form of induction,as opposed to carbuerator(sp).just thought i would correct ya there buddy .and yes an NSX is FI.

 

I don't give those cars credit personally because they cost $90k and still can't beat my car which costs almost $70k less. And anywho he meant forced induction. I've seen people use FI as the abbreviation for it before. No big deal. I know what he meant.

 

I was talking about Forced Induction. Sorry for the confusion. So you don't give cars credit because of a price tag? It doesn't make sense to me. But, like I said, cost is in the eye of the beholder.

 

money is money. It's a $90k dollar car that for the money does not impress me much. You could get a C5 and have twin turbo put on it for that kind of money. It's an exotic car meant for people who have nothing better to do with their money. Don't get me wrong if you like that sort of thing it is a nice car. But it's not anything me, an average person, will be wasting my money on anytime soon.

 

Nic, if we were to apply Newton's third law here and there was a reaction force equal and opposite to the forward motion of the car, the car would not move! The problem is that there are no external forces applied on the car, therefore Newton's third law does not apply. It does apply however, between the backward force from the rotating tire and the forward frictional force from the track.

Also, weight (the force of gravity) has no direction other than straight down (toward the earth). The only way to decrease the weight without removing mass would be to apply a force opposite in direction to the weight (up). A force directed horizontally would not have any effect on the weight whatsoever.

So where does this upward force come from?

The simple explanation: The rotation of the wheels causes the whole car to tend to rotate in the opposite direction around its center of mass.

The long explanation: The torque on the car due to angular momentum. The torque from the engine is transferred to the wheels, which spin toward the front of the car. This rotation causes an angular momentum toward the driver's side of the car. The change in angular momentum from the wheels (from rest to some value) tends to induce a torque on the car directed toward the passenger side in an attempt to conserve angular momentum. This torque results in an upward force at the front of the car and a downward force at the rear of the car, or a tendency to rotate around the center of mass of the car about an axis parallel to the wheel axis.

The same physics apply no matter where the drive wheels are. The same for braking is also true; it's like AWD with torque in the opposite direction.

 

Coming from a decent of bikers, hot rodders, and drag racers. I am all American. American powerplants (Harley V-twins, V-8 Chevys, Fords, Mopars) provide more **** loads of power per cubic inch! Who gives a **** about a sport compact/ import 4 or 6 banger anyway?

 

Who cares who/where it came from? If it's fast, respect it.


:hail: RX-7
:hail: Supra
:hail: 300ZX
:hail: DSM
:hail: Skyline

etc....

 

couldn't have said it better myself

 

hey newguy, if moneys not a issue to you can I have a few grand?

 

I don't want to start a new thread for this, and since this is only a tangent away from the subject, I'll just ask a really dumb question here:

What is the difference between HP and torque?

I've had several partial answers to this before, but none that have really satisfied my curiosity. Thanks for any input!

 

the best analogy of the hp/torque difference is say your standing on top of a 10 story building. you have a rope in your hand that is attached to a bucket of bricks on the ground. the bricks have a given weight. horsepower is how fast you can pull that given bucket of bricks to the top of the building. torque is the maximum weight of total bricks you can pull up.....

 

you would have me beat for the time being

I´m N/A

but saving up for a turbooooo


then the fun begins from there

 

you might want to read up on stats before you say domestics make more power per cubic inch then an sport compact/import