ok... i've raced one at top end... i was at 110 and he couldn't take me.. that was back when i had the 2.8
now i have the 3.4...
i should have more horses that this tbi... but the torque is a diff story...

my question is do i have a chance at bottom end... cuz i'm sure i can take em off a roll and especially top speed...

 

I think the 305.

 

I'm gonna go with the 305 as well

 

yea thats what i thought...
i've taken one before at top end...
and this particular 305 is my best friend...(i never raced his 305 yet)
we tested each other for a second... and i knew i could take him off a roll of 40 immediately...
its the bottom end i'm not entirely sure about...
i doubt it... more torque for him...
i have stock 200 torque...
more prolly with mods...

 

at 110 the 305 was probably hitting the limiter if it was still there, even if it wasn't, if its an auto, he was probably stuck in 3rd gear. Even then the L03 has crap for top end accel. Does ok around 60-80mph and then it drops off.

 

i'm suprised with my car cuz
my limitor doesn't work anymore
its supposed to kick in at about 118... but that stopped a long time ago...
i've hit 130 before in my 6er...
how... your guess is as good as mine...
how do i know i hit it
i only clock 120 on the speedo...
well the prelude next to me was marking 130...
so... i'm the only v6 in this board that i know of so far that can kick this far...
i would like to know if any other v6 can do this...
before i couldn't even kick into 105...
then 107
110
115
118
then one day i hit 120...
then i hit again
and again...
i raced a gta(really horrible condition)
that was the first time... i nearly was not able to hit over 120
i was stuck at 118... then all of a sudden... i pulled on him... i glance at the speedo... and i'm already past the 120... hehe
so i've taked two v8s
a 305 tbi...
and a 350 tpi gta... but once again that engine was about to croak i think... horrible power... might as well have been a 305 tbi...or a 6 even...

 

I have an easy 3 letter answer that will tell you that you are not even close to the fastest 6 on this board. TTA

There you go, and you beating a 350 TPI GTA w/ a 2.8 . Well maybe if the GTA owner was passed out/sleeping, had his throttle set-up @ 1/4, had 4 bald and flat tires, and also had the spark plug wires crossed. Oh ya and a tranny w/o fluid in it.
A 2.8 that beat a 350 GTA even if it was about to croak.

Later, Garrett

 

i dun mean the fastest... i'm just a 16 sec car prolly
i meant more along the lines of a 2.8 to 3.4 that can hit 130...
not acceleration
top speed
no1 i know so far as they're limitor not kicking in at 118 or anything...
i've hit 130 5 times already

TTA is a whole different thing

 

The 305 tbi might not be the fastest v8 ever made, but the 2.8 or the 3.4 has nothing on it. You will lose, sorry man.

 

well i've beaten one top end...
so maybe i do have something on it...
i dunno...
i was just asking a quesiton i knew the answer too already...
i'd lose off zero
of a roll of about 40... i'd be even up until the higher end...
and the top end... i've won before... it had mods and all..
i still took it top end... couldn't pass me

 

thats a peppy v6 you have there!

 

thanx... i've tried... its no fast car... but it can suprise sometimes...
hopefull fast enough to compete with you v8 guys sometime...
especially with the plans i have for it
muhahahaha
>

 

yeah uh, i would say the 305 has you in this one bud. i dont see any chance of you beating him.

 

Are you sure he was racing? I'm not trying to flame you at all. I just think that even though the 305 tbi isnt the greatest performer it still will not lose to a 3.4. Why dont you just race and post the results.

 

if he has the 3.4 they put in.......... the 93+ firebirds???........then he has 160 hp compared to the lo3's 170. that he beat one isnt COMPLETELY unbelievable. then again you say he had "mods"......if he had any REAL ones, he'd blow you away

 

The tbi has 10 more hp and a crapload more torque. I think he will lose to a 305 tbi IMHO.

 

why, just because it's a v8?

from what i understand, torque doesnt help a whole lot at 100mph.

the sixers came with 3.42's in the rear (if im not mistaken) as opposed to the tbi's probable 2.73.

his probably weighs less.

his engine is new, the other could have tons of miles and be out of tune.

the other guy could have been a shltty driver.

just some ideas..................

 

OK then the 3.42 gears will do nothing for him from a roll either if torque means nothing. 2.73's should be better from a roll. Torque still plays a roll at any speed

 

and no not just because it's a v8, because it is simply more powerful than a 3.4 Liter v6 in a camaro. Ive raced v6 camaros including the early 4th gens and i won with my bone stock 305 tbi. There are a lot of v6's that would hand me my ***, just not a 3.4 Liter with 160 hp and crap for torque.

 

from what i understand, the measurement of horsepower is based on the measurement of torque. it shows how far up in the rpm scale the measurement of torque is effective. depending on where the torque peaks, determines how much horsepower the car has. that's why the lo3, which has 255 torque @2400rpm, has 170hp, and the 3.4, having "only" 200 torque @3600rpm, still has comparable horsepower. simply, the lo3's torque kicks in sooner and as a result fades out sooner on the rpm scale. that's also why the lo3 will rape him off the line but the same advantage wears off at higher rpm. so no, torque does not carry the same weight at "any speed."

im sure someone will correct me if any of that is wrong.

and i have no idea what you mean by the comment that 3.42's (if that's even what he's got) give no advantage over 2.73's

 

I never said torque carries the same weight at any speed, i said it still plays a roll at any speed. the advantage you will find from installing a lower gear in a car is from a stop, it will "get up and go" a lot faster off the line. from a roll the gearing plays less of a roll.

 

Like i said before, just race and then post the results. SIMPLE! I speak from experiance when i say I think you will lose because I myself have a 305 tbi and I have raced 3.4's before and won. But my opinion really means crap. All you have to do is race the guy, find out who wins, and post it.

 

he said he already raceD (notice the past tense) the guy, and won at speed. and i am saying that isnt necessarily bs. what he is asking about is from a stop, and i said above (agreeing with you) that the tbi would win. so unless you are pulling out the on him for the race he already had, i dont understand what our argument is about

 

I'm not calling bs on anything. I was simply saying what ive experienced personally in the past. If he won great, if not then oh well. I personally am not the type to ask if i will win a certain race or not. If I am curious I find out by racing him. If I lose then I lose, it wont be the first time or the last time. If i win then great, woo hoo. Its all for fun.

 

i talked to him... were gonna have 3 races

yes i beat a 305 tbi... not the tbi we are talking about now... this one had no catalytic and prolly just new spark plugs... yes he was racing... its kinda hard to believe some hitting like 106 without peddeling...
i dunno about you... but i don't think half peddel can achieve that... i was hitting 110 and got stuck... and he couldn't pass me... we stayed at the same acceleration... and basically i won... cuz no1 was gaining after awhile

i've never lost to a 2.8-3.4 yet thought i'd mention that... but i'd like to... so i can follow suit in mods

this new tbi has no mods... just spark wires
his engine is older than mine

and i have my engine
with all my mods
i should have more than 170 horses
the torque thing i totally agree with... i'll lose

this tbi and i peddeled it for a second once and we both stayed next to each other for about a few seconds and we eased off cuz we really weren't trying to race... but two thirdgens together and you know

i asked for this race thing to pass time until the race actually happens plus i was the third wheel at this thing so i had nothing better to do

we were gonna race no matter what...
we agreed on three races or more...
0 dead
20 roll
40 roll

we'll see what happens
i expect to lose...
becuz i agreed in the begining that the sheer torque will destroy my v6

thing is... i have more experiance in racing...
i think hes only raced like 3 times
while i've learned when to shift on my thing and so on..

today the race might happen... but the race itself will happen no matter what

keep ya posted on that

 

106 is very achievable @ 1/2 throttle. My B4C which I just sold a month and a half ago could no problem and it would top out at over 150 (speedo max) at about 3/4 throttle.

And not be be mean but who cares about top end, I've never been challenged to a top end race it's always 40-100 or 0-60 or imagine this 1/4 mile. Top end racing is a good way to get you in a lot of trouble real fast, trust me that's why I had to sell the B4C!!!

Later, Garrett

 

i agree. i was cruising at 90 one night trying to get home before the snow hit, and i looked down and it had got well over 100, and it wasnt anywhere near floored. 1/2 throttle vs full throttle is mostly just the difference in how fast you get there

but he could be talking about top end not being 'top speed' so much as the upper part of his rpm range, which you dont really hit at 0mph.

 

yeap, ive hot over 100 mph on the interstate one morning when i was running late for school and i wasnt giving it any more than half throttle.

 

rpm range i meant
cuz if he was half throttling it he would not be keeping up to me

i 1/2 throttle- 3/4 throttle it and can it easily 100 just at 3000 rpms...

i meant in the idea that he was half pressing the throttle while i'm full peddeling it... he wouldn't be behind me like that... i would've left him a long time ago

sorry i didn't clear it up sooner

 

Hahaha.. not trying to say the L03s are great or anything.. but they do have plenty of top end xcelleration. just look at the few mods i did, and i can pull from 90-120 in maybe 4-5 seconds... only think i know that can beat that is my friends cobra... (but come on now...)

and yes i have the stock 2:73

 

right.........and according to c&d, a 98 firehawk goes from 90-120 in 7.9 seconds

then again you'd bust him a new one too..............

 

harsh true and funny all at the same time

but I'm with him

4-5 seconds isn't going to happen


at that speed drag and you gearing wouldn't help you out any

 

lol.........sorry guy, i didnt mean to be an ******* about it. i know it seems a lot faster than it really is, but take a stopwatch, you'll see what i'm talking about.


let's say you do 0-60 in 7 seconds. now at that rate you could go from 90-120 in 3.5 seconds (which, btw, your estimate is rather close to). BUT..... for every 10mph faster you wanna go, the engine has to work some coefficient harder. maybe some math whiz can come on here and figure all this out; unfortutely that aint me. but for the faster you want to go, the slower you're gonna get there. ALOT slower....like rx7 said, you've got friction, drag, gearing, etc to take into account.

 

for those who didn't believe
i just raced the 305 tbi
and won..
from 0
with 3 peeps in my car
i'm quite happy right now...
well going back to have fun
i'll describe the win later

 

yeh... after reading all that i went to see how wrong i really was... Well it made me feel like a compete ***... It feels kinda fast, but its more like 10 seconds... Sorry just kinda got cought up with the feel instead of the facts...

 

hey it's cool

we all get a little caught up in things at times

but honestly as long as you are learning ( as I still have a lot to do ) it's cool.....

 

Congratulations on the win, Keoki.



Also, for the all the hype about the 305 TBI's torque advantage, if it does have a 2.73 axle ratio and the 3.4 V-6 has the 3.42 axle ratio, the torque advantage is virtually erased. The V-6 would only need about 205 lb.ft. per the 255 lb.ft of the 305 TBI, and the 3.4 with the mods described easily makes that and more. As for the 2.73 ratio being an advantage from a roll, that would only be true if the car with the 3.42 ratio didn't have have a higher rpm range to match it gear for gear. In this case, the 3.4 can definitely pull higher rpms and take advantage of the better axle ratio. And one more thing, the 305 TBI weighs more than the V-6, and that weight sits on the front wheels instead of the drive wheels, which doesn't help to plant its torque advantage to the ground.

 

i'm so happy with the win!
it slammed faith in my car str8 to my face...
i have a guy already calling bs on another post i have about this race...
but i don't blame him...
it is kinda hard to believe i guess....

hey thanx for that rear end knowledge... knowledge is good!

i'll give the detailed race soon

 

that's what it's all about, you get a win and are all happy with the performance, and then you turn around the next week and lose bad and are completely dissappointed. it's that way for everybody, and it's why we make them faster



not if it's wrong......ill explain later i dont have time now, but there's some formula to calculate the final torque with the axle gear ratio (if someone could post it so i dont have to find it if i even can):hail:, all i remember right now is that putting 3.42's in my car (255 ft lbs stock) as opposed to my friend's 94 gt with 3.08's or something (285 ft lbs stock)......neither of them have that torque anymore so i guess it doesnt matter, but i didnt even make up the 30 ft lb difference.....so youre not gonna make up a 50+ difference as reddragon said......though i see where his logic is coming from

 

I was figuring the difference straight up, not taking into account the extra powerloss with a numerically higher axle ratio. That, and the torque converter adds another dimension, which I'm not sure about, but I know it favors the engine that puts more torque into it. Still, as I mentioned before, his 3.4 is making more torque than the 205 lb.ft. I said he needed straight up. I'm guessing 175 hp and 215 lbs.ft. with his mods. Yeah, that still puts him 40 lb.ft. off a stock 305 TBI, but he's still probably lighter by about 100 pounds, and the torque converter advantage will fade as the revs climb.

 

first off, the weight difference between the two is negligible

second, i dont see where i said that 2.73's give an advantage, in fact i said that the guy that posted that was wrong....of course smaller gears help more at any speed, the only factor being that they get to the top speed, and top of the rpm power range faster.

THIRD, i cant find the formulas i had before, but let's look at it this way: he has 200 torque, and the difference between 2.73 and 3.42 is 50 final axle torque? that would mean that since i went from 2.73 to 3.42 i get the same jump, so now i can stay with the torque of a 2.73 geared car with OVER 300 torque? i don't think so. my gear jump may have taken .4 off my 1/4 time if im lucky, a jump in 50 torque would take off tons more than .4.

i agree with you, gearing makes a difference, but not that BIG of a difference. if it did there would be ALOT more emphasis placed on it. i only wish i could find the formula for this, because until i can it's just your opinion vs my bs.

 

I'm curious about the 260 HP and the 365 Torque in your B4C.What mods did you have? Dyno?

 

Well, that's just it. Gearing doesn't actually increase anything, but makes it easier for the engine to accelerate under load. Numerically higher ratios allows the engine to do it with less torque. The difference between the 3.4 and a 305 TBI is that the 305 TBI has nothing to rev into. Once you take off, that 255 lb.ft. is passed and never to be seen again, so more gearing would have less benefit. So I'm guessing most of what the 3.42's did for you was improve burnouts.

 

yes........I...............know............
and what do spark plugs do again? i seem to have forgotten


you just said it yourself, it makes it easier to accelerate. so as a rule of thumb, more/smaller/higher/whatever gearing is always better, and continues to have benefits in all gears/speeds/rpm. 2 exceptions: some of these guys are running the 1/4 fast enough that the gears can slow them down because they hit their optimal point where they make the most power, and pass it with smaller gears. also tiny gears kill mileage. but it's not like my 3.42's just stop working at 60mph.

my burnouts are the same as before, the car just uses both wheels now.

 

i dont know if anybody has said this yet, but its kind of dumb comparing yourself to a 305 at high speeds. the 305 rs camaros are limited, meaning the computer wont let u go over a certain speed, does that mean the engine couldnt go faster? no. so why are you comparing speeds of over 100 and thinking your faster? race somebody who installed a switch to disable the limiter and see if youll still win.

 

i would... but no more high speed races for me... i've had my fair share...
plus... i've proven enough...
i beat one at top speed
i beat one at zero
anything more?
i had a limitor then too...
i stop at 115...
so it was a fair race...
i had my govenor on and so did the other 305
now... somehow my govenor doesn't work... or is off...
i've hit 130 before... which i think is pretty good for a v6

 

ok to the person that said that rear end gears would not make more torque

I kinda disagree with that

sure at the flywheel it is not going to make a difference in torque or anything

I agree with it not making the ideal amount of torque as some people are saying
i.e. a 200 tq motor with 2.0 gears making 400 torque
while a 100 torque motor with 4.0 gears making 400 torque

that is not going to happen either
even though the gearing does give a better advantage at torque multiplication there is more drivetrain loss with the higher gears with a little added friction.

but I would bet money on it taking two cars identical even down to hp/tq on the dyno then swap one of them out of the 2.73 up to a 3.23 you are going to get a torque increase at the wheels.
if it didn't make any difference in hp why not just do the dyno in first?