I started looking into the 1/4 times that are listed on STOCK honda and acura cars. The new RSX is said to hit mid 14's stock. No forced induction or anything and thats only 200 HP (not sure if at the crank or wheels). Now I understand that the cars they make are light (econobox's hehe. Now some of the GSRs and SI cars are low 14s as well stock. Howcome then, I see many races on here where people in almost stock Z28s and irocs and formulas are stomping them? Arn't most of our thirdgens in high 14 range? Is it theoretical numbers I see posted for Hondas and acuras that just don't happen in real life? How could they move very well with that little of torque off the line anyway?


thanks. hope this is an ok post for this area.

 

Are you asking if this translates well on to the street or what? Rephrase the question.

 

yes onto the street. Are they more theoretical, or actual factual performace on the street with a decent driver.

Cause I read of many a race on here racing civics, and preludes and the like, and beating them.


thanks1

 

Dude where did you see those numbers at exactly?I had a turbo eclipse that was running high 14's and I would literally kill RSX's and even worse GSR integras.Those numbers are off.

 

On websites that say the stock numbers on those cars. Interesting. se thats what I thought cause my friend ryans GST kicks the ****e out of most hondas and his is mostly stock aside from exhaust and intake.

 

i understand what your saying, a magazine gets a hold of these new import cars and the magazine knocks off impressive times, then the public gets em u go to the tracks and what are they doin? 15s, 16s just like the rest of em. i dont know what versions of these cars the magazines get but in reality they arent as fast as bench racers think they are. case in point, this all new 300hp STI wrx is supposidly a 13 sec car blah blah blah, well there was two of these at the track last night and yes they were the STI version, high 14s and low 15s at 93mph. ha my 305 TPI 5spd was quicker in stock form.

 

must be hellabad drivers 300hp should be trapping better then 93

 

Either bad drivers or they aren't "real" STis...

 

Ringers!

 

I have seen all the times all over and from what I see it is

-RSX Type S, 14.8-15.2
-Integra Type R, 14.7-15.1
-Integra GSR, 15.0-15.4
-Civic SI, 15.6-16.0

Now these are the times they are supposed to run, but from my experience these times are not accurate. The ones I see run about 2-4 tenths slower then those times, and on the street if the driver sucks that will explain the wins.

 

That and there is one thing our cars have that most of these imports dont and that is torque. We don't have to rev our engines up to 3 or 4k rpm in order to launch so we have a much easier time launching. Also, if it is your only transportation are you going to fry the clutch on a street race? I think not. Oh, and alot of these cars tend to get the, ehm, "Mad tyte system, Yo!". Adding a good chunk of weight to the cars. So combine all of this with the fact that half the people driving the cars don't know the best shift points on their car, and that they think spinning tires makes you go faster (or they have done it so many times they can't help it) and you get alot of the reason these much touted imports tend to not be as hot on the street.

 

Well, don't forget, a lot of people at the track make half-assed runs. You really have to launch the hell out of an AWD car to maximize its potential and get out of the hole as quickly as possible. Even Car and Driver said you would be hard pressed to duplicate their numbers for the STI (4.6 0-60, 13.2 1/4 mile). Also, AWD cars tend to have a lower trap speed (versus 1/4 mile time). They'll make up a lot of time with a good launch, but, they have more "rolling resistance", especially toward the end of the track. Try pushing an AWD car in Neutral!

 

most of the regular WRXs that are stock that race at NH are known to do mid 15 passes. and they rated at what 227hp? so i doubt the 300hp model runs 2 seconds faster with only 75hp more. as far as i can see these guys were launchin good, the good ole 4 wheel chirp takin off. as for mph goes, u can suck at launchin but if ur giving it WOT down the track the mphs will stay the same. im not tryin to put these cars down at all i do think they are cool. it just makes me curious when i see the magazines and bench racers claim low mid 13s and in reality they in the 14s and 15s. theres a thread goin about a dude that beat a STI in a B4C in this forum.

 

Yea, that B4C is just about stock... Except for Everything
Regardless I think there are one of two things that might be occurring that you might be seeing poor times from WRXs. Either your track sucks or there are only a couple WRXs there with bad drivers. WRXs can and do regularly pull mid 14s stock and like it or not the STis really are 13 second cars.
If someone was going all out in an STi and pulled a 15 or even a high 14 there is something wrong with the car or the guy wasn't going all out with the car or it is actually just a regular wrx with a wing.
Of course you don't have to take them seriously if you're so sure they're so slow.

 

For you that barely read or dont know about my B4C which I just finished in july of this year (7/03) that I have been building since april of 99 (4/99)... I think you should follow that LINK that inwo put up and make sure to scroll to the bottom and see the pics that are not even on the site of the motor buildup. BTW go ahead and give a STi a try in yer stock 3rd gen and see what happens. I built my car to eat vipers and crap ZO6's...

 

sorry i wasnt aware that car was modded. but in any event thats what ive observed these cars to do at this track. like i said already im not tryin to knock em and i dont think their slow. and it could very well be a ****ty driver but in that event thats reality of real world numbers vs magazine shootouts. u cant loose a race and say well my cars faster then urs if this guy from X magazine drives it, thats horse crap.

 

thats great thats a nice B4C and no i dont keep tabs on ur car. dont give me sarcastic remarks because these subarus are runnin those times at the track i go to. dont shoot the messanger buddy. i just observe.

 

they dont go that slow at our track and its at 5800 feet altitude- Mr. attitude.

also let me quote from my other post about my kill:

 

Basically, these quotes from above more or less tell the story. The problem is that to replicate the 'magazine figures' the 4wd Jap Turbo cars, be it Impreza or Evo in any one of the multitude of variations they come in. To get the numbers you have to be absolutely BRUTAL in your launch technique. You have to have absolutely no mechanical sympathy what-so-ever! this usually involves side-stepping the clutch from at or almost at the redline. The problem with this is of course, that transmissions/clutch/differentials and so on start to break rather quickly!

On speaking to some of these guys i've found that they know they could post better numbers if they were more brutal in their technique, but, they don't wish to do so, as they know the longevity of their car will drastically reduce. Not to mention the price of parts for those things!

As for how much this relates to the street... probably more than it may appear at first. Preumably, they are less likely to attempt an all out launch on the road due to surface considerations etc. The good track quarter times they post rely heavily on the 60' time, so if you can start the race from a roll then you're onto a winner depending on respective mods etc.

 

You don't have to be "Brutal" on the launch in a WRX or EVO to run great times. Being brutal is launching hard with no wheelspin. I launch by revving to 3000k rpms let the clutch up a 1/4 of the way then floor it and slowly let up on the clutch when the tach hits 5500rpm. You get some wheelspin from the front and a little from the rear tires to relieve the stress and then you just shoot out like a rocket. Myself and tons of other people use this launching technique and have hundreds of passes on it without ever burning the clutch or blowing the tranny up. And cutting 1.7 60ft times is a big bonus

 

I disagree. You don't have to rev it to the redline and drop the clutch cause that's when you blow your transmission up. Ricers launch like that because they don't know any better. Intelligent AWD turbo drivers when they rev up their car to get a hard launch Slip the clutch slowly which gives close to no wheel spin and an incredibly hard launch on the street at the track in the rain or what have you. I'm not saying that stuff doesn't still break, but if you let the CLUTCH take the abuse instead of the spider gears or rear diff or what have you you'll be much less likely to be a pedestrian after 2 hard launches. That's a rather common misconception it seems, launching an AWD turbo car and dropping the clutch many times means you're walking home.

 

Yes slipping the clutch is also another popular method but it much harder on the car. You'll burn the clutch up rather quickly. Whereas if you can learn to break the tires loose..the tires will take the punishment and not the clutch or the drivetrain. It's not easy and it takes alot of practice but if you learn it right you'll make hundreds of passes with no worries. There are plenty of people running in the mid to low 12's with hundreds of passes on the stock clutch using this method.

 

Have you ever even driven a suped up AWD car?

 

Just think if they actually put a good clutch in what their times would be Too much loss on the stock clutch due to slippage to put all the power you make to the ground.
If you dump your clutch with your AWD car then you know, good luck. At least you have 2 cars so when you blow up your transmission on your WRX you have something to drive, no?
I'd rather burn my clutch than blow up transmission internals, thanks for your concern.

 

Honestly In street races us thirdgeners can take these imports. We assault them with torque and off the line power. And if u think about it street races don't really go to high speeds from lights. We jump so much by the time we reach 60mph they just shut down and give up. If they stayed on it they would catch up. We get up to 85 atleast in the quarter mile thats why they beat us stock guys. But on the street once we have jumped and keep pulling they give up.


1992 Z-28 305 TPI auto 15.5 bone stock

 

what do you think about these "all motor" hondas running nines on the tracks? I know they arn't street legal...but still, not to mention the outrageous cost involved.

There is a black honda civic rollin around here that has about (what im told) 210 HP to the wheels, (raced my friends lightly modded GST and won, on the streeth though) and they are about to build another one putting 280 HP to the wheels all motor......what are your guys' thoughts on this one? Woudln't the wheels just spin, and hop and not even hook with that much power, not to mention seriously stressing the drivetrain and internals? And in all honesty, how many people are really willing to spend that money on a honda, just to drive on the street. My idea is that most buy a wing, a body kit, a cold air intake, and a muffler tip and call it good, and think they are fast. Woudln't ya say thats about right?

Oh yah, this dude I talked to that helps build and tune these things....lol I asked him how long these "race" motors last, and he said "oh just as long as the stock ones do, over 200K usually" I have a REALLY hard time believin that one cause if that were the case (granted they make much more HP) why do they have to rebuild the F1 cars engines after every race or two?


thanks

 

would an 11 second DSM and 11 second WRX count? If so then yes.

I don't dump the clutch in my WRX if you read what I wrote you would see that. I use a different method for launching which has yet to blow a tranny or clutch in a WRX. And no I don't have two cars that are driveable. My IROC is in my garage with no motor or tranny..bare metal shell interior,and a rear end that is barely held in the car. I have it all stripped down basically.

 

yup those STI's suck

for some odd reason they run worse then just the stock WRX

who knows maybe the WRX is the version mags got
while the STI they gave the mags one version and gave the public another

that would explain why the better car runs slower then the base car



point here
just because a mag runs a time doesn't mean they have some different car
but rather they have someone who might be able to drive

have you ever seen a bone stock LS1 run 15's?
I have
guess that means the mags really got the better car right :-p

but most of these cars (si, RSX, prelude and such) CAN run the numbers published if at the same alititude and with a good driver

the problem isn't always the car but rather the idiot behind the wheel

lets rev it up to 8000rpms and dump the clutch
wheel spin up the ***
or the bog at the line
FWD SUCKS to launch

also x_wolf GSR and SI civic where NEVER low 14's stock
low 15's MAYBE for an si
GSR is low 15 MAYBE high 14's with good driver

expect mid-high 15's out a GSR though and low to mid 16's out of an SI for the reason stated above though

 

+1

 

hehe
depends on the magazine

road and track
or
car and driver

those would be my favorite people to race

13.8 out of a camaro ss
13.0 out of a LS6 vette
numbers that they pull are horrible

 

Evan Smith behind the wheel should be a requirement for all magazine 1/4 mile tests.

 

agreed

 

I both agree and disagree. Either Evan needs to be behind the wheel on every test or none of them. Its like having Mario Andretti do the road testing of your mag and then haveing other mags try to have thier lousy amatures do it and it creates no finite information base.

 

I think mags running slower times is good, so when someone goes to the track they dont wonder why their car cant run what MT runs! If Evan ran every car we would have everyone up in arms as to why they cant run 12s in their LS1s, 13s in their WRXs, and so on!

 

anyone see my post about the sti?

https://www.thirdgen.org/techbb2/sho...hreadid=201200

this was a bone stock sti. we ran twice. i guarantee that is a low 13 second car stock..

in our first race i got the jump on him, and stayed about 3/4 a car ahead of him to about 60mph....second time, i didnt get the jump. lets just say i didn't stay 3/4 car length back. he was pulling hard untill i gave up and let off.

 

What the mags run are usualy a little slower then what true drivers can do. People that run 13.8 or slower in an LS1 car should be banned from the track and forced to sell the car for a honda. There are so many variables that make street or track racing different. You cant cover all the angles unless you go pro street. Just build you car to where you want it. You will never be able to mate the top cars unless you get a crappy driver. a 500hp car that runs 13's blows unless the car is a 5klbs truck. the STi should be running mid to high 13's. Evo the same. AWD eats up a lot more power then a RWD car does. The RSX doesnt run 14's... the RSX-S does. Motor swaps here, whatever... all comes down to $$$. If you beat a STi or a Viper or whatever... something that has supierior power over you... good race and good win, but dont expect the same outcome every time.

 

W41 Quad 4 H.O. was making more HP ten years ago than Integra GSRs are making now. I know its totally unrelated, but our 4 cylinders have been kicking *** for years just completely unnoticed.
oh and they should have the people of muscle mustang driving all these cars to get the fully best times out of stock cars. 12.9 out of a stock LS1!!!

 

what aobut the omni GLHS omni "q-ships" they have been faster than thirdgens since they rolled of the assembly line in 85-86! Lets look at what was available from the sport compact market back then? There was one here running 11's in NHRA stock eliminator (minor tweaks and mods) at 5800 feet and setting records before a honda boy ever thought of ricing out his ride!

 

im agreeing with 25th mustang here,

the top trim levels of most imported cars tend to run about .5 seconds slower than they should at most tracks......here at new england its all driver too, cause the track is only at 90 feet elevation.

but seriously, look at most of the people who are driving these things, and the answer shall come to you like a fart in the wind.

the "RSX Racing Team" was at the track last time i attended street night, that was fairly entertaining, not a one of them ran faster than low 15's in their high powered junior executive coupe.

there were 4 STI's there, the ran in the high 13's.....no problem with the little suburaus though, great cars.....and they can go pretty quick, but shame on people who buy them for their drag potential....go hit a dirt road course or something.

 

I was told by some 240sx lover that a late 80's early 90's 240sx with $1200 worth of mods would kill any 3rd gen, 5.0 Mustang and get this 4.6 Mustang. What mods does he list a turbo from a junkyard ahahahahahahahahahahhahhaha. So I tell him "When all the plastic on your probe look a like falls apart from your junkyard turbo flying off after the hamster has a heart attack and comes shooting out your 6" coffee can the third gens will still be there with me laughing."

I love how soem import people think that cold air intakes and exhaust can add 50 hp

In Import Tuner it shows real Dyno results of mods and some cold air intakes lose Hp and Torque at lower RPMs and then only gain like 1-4 Hp or Torque at higher RPM's.

 

thats because unlike many of our rwd v8 cars, most of the imported economy cars with very small displacement engines are not restricted in the way our cars are from the factory.

in order to make some of these engines produce any useful horsepower, the engineers over seas tweaked many areas to work about as well as possible (not withstanding a power adder such as nitrous or blowers)

so by adding a shiny aluminum piece as a cold air intake in place of the factory one, your trading millions of dollars of factory engineering (to extract the most power from the engine) for about 40 bucks worth of cad/cam by some touch-hole in california

 

well you will love this then
replace exhuast
put a home made CAI
and K&N filter
RWHP gain of around 35-40hp
not flywheel but at the wheels

gotta love how those domestic guys lump every import into one and then say nothing is possible by doing such mods

and yes it is an import that this was done to
but it can't be possible because of that

also if you know much about the nissan cars (which you obviously don't) you would know that they for the most part are fairly stout cars.
and if he was to actually swap in a sr20det I wouldn't be shocked if his probe look alike would manage to put quite a few thirdgens to shame and still be around to talk about it for quite some time

but you wouldn't be able to admit to that now would you

 

I didn't say he couldn't beat any 3rd gens. Most likely would beat most auto 305 TPI or 305 carb, but I don't think he can touch the 350 TPI or Trans AM V6 turbo. The 4.6 DOHC mustang would leave him wondering. Did you add a cat-back or headers and cat-back(what I meant by exhaust is cat-back). Rotary engines are kinda different then any other import or domestic if thats what car you do have. Sorry but when I said import I should of really said Civics and Integras.

 

in all honesty rotary engines are not that different other then different parts
other then that the operation behind them is all the same

and even not talking rotary motor
can back mixed with K&N and homemade CAI have netted around 20 hp and 30 lb/s tq

this is on a piston 4 banger
:P

but no it isn't a honda either


and with a turbo motor he could prolly give the 350 a decent run
TTA would prolly take care of him thoug hdepending on how much work is really done to the nissan

 

Around is that dyno or are you just guessing that much gain.

 

dude 90% of those nissans suck....i've raced them, and beat the **** out of all of them.....

and there are a few nissan dealership technicians that are members of this board.....and they will be happy to tell you what dogs they are.

dont start with me either rx7.....you know what im talkin about, so dont read anything into what i just said for the sake of creating a 15 page dissertation

i know your tricks

 

first we were not talking stock here
second you are driving in what a 500hp 383 and not ANYWHERE near stock

that would be like me saying yeah my car races geo metros running on 2 cyl and beat he **** out of them

what are you trying to get at?

showing that a HEAVILY moddified car can beat a stock nissan?
watch out guys we have a big man here

of course your going to be beating them up if you ask me that was kind of a stupid comment


as for being junk
it all depends on what car we are talking here
no not all nissans are that great
never said all of them where
you say you know my tricks and not to read into your post but yet you don't even read any of the post above
oh well

least I kept it under 15 pages

 

i absolve myself of all responsibility for posts made while intoxicated

 

That car is awesome! Im looking for more pics and prices as I write this

 

wow this post has gone on WAY longer then I expected. I just have a very hard time believing this dude telling me about his import scene. His name is Joe he works at a local performance shop called MaxRPM.

HE states that they have a honda already built (10K later ) that is putting about 250 horses out. (not sure if thats the crank, or to ground) and he says now they are building a Civic SI up to be putting 285 HP to the GROUND. Now......this I can't see because the people they have that are top fuelers in their sport compact class are pushin 300 horses at the engine, and these cars are stripped down civics and CRX's IE nothing but a shell, and they have spent THOUSANDS on these things, and they are by no means streetable. Thats what I don't understand. Some local car guy in a local shop that pays maybe 14 bucks an hour....and he can build cars that could do 9s on engine? Somehow I doubt that.

thats what started this whole thing

furthermore, how the HELL can these engines breath enough air and fuel to push out that much horsepower? I know they use high revving to their advantage (we use torque) but still..


ok thanks!