Thats because most f-bodies are either in the junkyard strppied beyond restorable condition or like mine; stored & rotting in a garage

 

And they wouldn't be there if a mod or two could put the V8 ones into the 13s....

 

Im with this guy
he obviously has achieved it.

just no Mustang to compare too

 

And they wouldn't be there if a mod or two could put the V8 ones into the 13s....

Thats been done with the 350 Tpi! I read a article in GM performance Magazine a few years back with 89 TA the only mods the guy had done was installed a SuperRam and exhaust. The car ran 13.7 with stock gearing and suspension.

The 305 tpis are crap I can admit to that but at the same time I raced a 99 or 2000 GT when my 305 was in the car and he only beat me by a half car. My car had over 100,000 miles and the only upgrade I had was 3inch exhaust.

I've spent alittle over 5000 in my car an all I need now are some gears and axles. My new tranny will be here the first week in July and when my new motor gets broken in I'll be sure to post some track times.

 

Figure a Mustang with similar pricing, but a few can be had for less...

The heads are similar priced, the cam for that price would be custom, theres no need for a converter or shift kit, but a shifter and clutch ($500 TOPS), no need for new pushrods, and rockers are only $250, long tubes can be had for $250, and no need for a chip...

 

heres my stance:

any V8 will be dam fast If $5000 is dumped into it.

what sets the Mustang and F-body apart is the parts
that complement the Mustang V8.

1. 5spd Mustangs are everywhere
2. great rear-end, dont have to buy or strengthen
3. intake flows well from factory
4. the Ford 5.0L's power band kicks in
diffrentley in RPM
5. superior engine electronics
(In my own opinion)

GM screwed up twice:

1. 305 sucks and belongs in a Caprice family wagon.
2. L98s never saw a 5spd in the 80s.

and I think its unfair, how come the LT-1 got
a manual tranny ??

L98s were outstanding motors, and I bet
alot more people woulda bought IROCs and
T/As if it had a 5spd in the 80s-90s.

this has been said once before, I think by Nick418
"the L98 would be soo much fun with a 5spd .."

 

I obviously can't verify where my fellow Thirdgen.org members really live, but if you are referring to upper class areas, this is exactly my point. You won't find too many Mustang's in these areas, and in these areas, the demand for the aftermarket is non-existant (meaning small).

 

I guess this would all boil down to mechanic ability. I personally feel that if a person can't get a 305 Camaro, and/or Firebird into the 13's.... then they have no business owning one.

 

i think i said that awhile ago in a diff post. Man 5 Speed or 6 speed would be so much fun. The L98 Vettes were fast stock with a 6 speed. Some ran high 13s stock!

 

Notice what I said? "V8 ones." That means ALL V8 ones, and by "mod or two" I meant simple things. Can a simple thing or two put ANY/ALL V8 3rd gen F-Body in to the 13s?

 

250 shot might put that tbi 305 into the 13s once, maybe.

 

lol good point

 

Or need money for a new engine.

 

My buddy has a 91 GT with:
-March cold-air induction
-aftermarket MAF sensor
-MSD box, wires, coil, etc...
-posi rear w/ 3.5? gears (aftermarket)
-new centerforce clutch
-edelbrock headers, X-pipe, no cats, flowmasters
-accel injectors
-Trick Flow intake w/bigger throttle body
-sub frames, lower control arms, strut tower brace
-B&M short shifter
-125 HP dry shot of ZEX
-BFG drag radials

our last time at the track he could only pull 14.20's constantly on motor, and a best of 12.69 on the juice. He was running the same if not better 60' times than my 1.9's on street tires.
I owned him every race. I was in the 13.6-13.7's constant on motor and 12.4's on juice.....
Maybe he can't drive. I don't know , but my mods are almost the same (check my page)


Im attaching some pics of a race with him. It was a bracket race (and yes i was using the juice)... I was dialed in at a 12.38 to his 14.20. He had a 1.82 sec. head start and i reeled him in like a fish. he even hit his dial-in time but his reaction sucked and i even let of the gas so i didn't break out (12.6 @ 95 mph)

 

heres more mustang meat

 

thats one hell of a head start to make up for....

 

pullin him

 

i wish i new how to post all these pics on one reply......

 

finally

 

And I can say your friends car should be faster. My dad was going 13.3s @ 101 with just gears, exhuast, and a set of tires. I had nearly the exact same mods as his and on a set of ET streets went 13.0s @ 103. Another friend of mine in a lighter car with 4.10s, better suspension and similar mods ran a very impressive (I might ask him to see if he had some head work done) 12.7 @ 107 again with no bottle. Another friend with an untouched motor all the bolt ons, and suspension went 12.7 @ 105.

I really could list 5 more cars that have gone between 12.7 and 13.4 with similar mods or less than his. I know hes your friend and it makes for a good comparison, but his car could be a lot faster!

 

thats what i thought too. The tracks we are running at here are 1000 feet above sea level, so i think he would be faster where you guys race. One thing he hasn't done yet is mess with his ECU or chip. I think that would help him alot, along with an electric fan..... His car should be in the 13's regardless.

 

Im running

3.73 FMS gears
shortie headers into ghetto H-pipe
BFG Comp T/A DR's

and my best time is 9.09@75.99MPh in the 18/th...Mine has blwon shocks so i hope to see a better improvement form it....its still great when peopel ask me how many miles i got and i hit them with 228xxx

 

The track I run at consistently is over 1000 feet also. I have my best pass at sea level, but my dads 13.3s were over 1000', the guy with the 12.7 @ 107 was over 1000'. Also none of us have chips or have taped into the ECU... no electric fans either, . I agree mid 13s easily, but not all cars are the same.

 

i agree with you about all cars not being the same. I think some are blessed and others cursed. I've heard of factory stock L98's with the same everything going 14.2 and a 15.2 depending on the magazine. There are so many variables too. I think a guy should learn about his car (launching, shifting, intake temps, tire pressure, timing curves, areodynamics, etc.....)
I've had my car for 8 years now. I have played with all kinds of settings, tips, and tricks and so on. i have probably shaved at least 1/2 sec off my E.T's by knowing my car in and out, and with PRACTICE Its almost like an artform when you really know your car and its physics.... like a video game

 

how odd? a 82 firebird weighs 2,858 lbs curb weight (this is right from the book) and yes the firebird v8 the t/a would way slighly more with the power and a/c ect but, since some had the aluminum hood it may off set some of the extra weight

 

Weight isn't really a factor here as far as I'm concerned, and if anything, the reduced weight would hinder a 200+mph top speed for the Mustang. Considering the fact that companies such as "Motion Performance" guaranteed street legal 10-11 second Camaro's straight from the factory (through affiliated dealerships) back during the early 70's, and considering the top speed that Gale Banks was able to achieve with his Third Generation Firebird.... I'd rather have the best of both worlds, myself.

Naturally aspirated? I have yet to see this myself, and I've been going to the tracks for quite sometime. I'm not saying that it isn't possible, I just never seen this. I'm also going to assume that we're talking street legal cars, because I have seen many L98's running the same numbers.... driving both to, and from the track.

The Third Generation F-Body didn't have the chance to blossom, as some of Generation X, and most of Generation Y, went the Import route. Had Imports not have thrived in the United States, you would have seen many more Third Generation Firebirds and Camaro's on the street. Again though, this is because of the fact that it was much cheaper to both purchase, and build, a Mustang, or an Import.

Timing worked against the Third Generation F-Body, and a lot of people back then honestly knew nothing about them, and even less on how to 'work' them. You're obviously seeing more of the 4th Generation F-Body's, because of it's LT1 engine.... and also because of the fact that practically ever magazine out there rags on our cars (save for High Performance Pontiac).

As for this 'one' turbo'ed L98 that ran low 12's, this honestly isn't saying much on the owner's part, as I've seen people running them in the 11's naturally aspirated back during the mid to late 90's.

When I purchased my 86 Iroc-Z28 once upon a time, the stock 305 LB9 block was cracked.... and the opportunity presented itself with the 454 Big Block. Even if it didn't though, I would have went with an L98 (in fact I initially planned to), and would have ran in the 10's anyway. Any car can run in the 10's, but it's my opinion that it's easier to get there with a 350, over a 302 (engine wise).... but at the same time, it's more than likely cheaper to get there with a Mustang, over a Camaro.

Edit: Just to elaborate, I mentioned "Motion Performance", because it's honestly nothing new to get a 350 powered F-Body to run those numbers. Common sense tells us that they could have ran these numbers straight from the factory during the 80's, but GM decided that they didn't want them to (not that they couldn't), for whatever reason.

 

I have seen a lot of 302-310 (non stroker) NA Mustangs going anywhere from 10s to low 11s. Granted I race with stricktly Mustangs, so I get to see the broad spectrum of them, and these are the cars that will come to our event, but you might not see at a test and tune (I rarely if ever test and tune anymore). I am not doubting what the Fbodies can run, as I know it would be a close comparison I just know when it comes to the bolt on supporting mods, the Mustang parts are cheaper, for the most part!

 

I just know when it comes to the bolt on supporting mods, the Mustang parts are cheaper, for the most part!

Fact is you know MUSTANGS! You have no idea of what parts cost for F-bodies now! Whatever part you can get for a mustang I can get for a F-body for the same price or even cheaper now. These cars have been out for over 20 years the market for parts is huge now.

I know because I own one and I have friends that own mustangs. I know what they paid for parts because I help them get them. If you go to a custom grind cam maker an get a roller cam for under $200 guess what these same people make cams for GM also for the same price. The same can be said for every part on your car and mine. I've been in the Automotive business for over 8yrs my company make parts for the BIG 3!

The only way you can get parts for a mustang cheaper is unless you know a shop that can get them for you for COST! An guess what I can do that TOO! If you don't believe me pick up a catalog!!!

 

Maybe this has changed over the past 3 or 4 years because when my cousin was buying parts for his thirdgen and I was for my 5.0 he was cringing. All his exhaust cost more, his driveshaft cost a lot more, intakes for the TPIs were rediculous back then, TBs cost more, etc... If this has changed then it proves I havent spent much time looking at buying thirdgen parts.

Maybe now I will see a lot more thirdgens at the track and the local cruise spots. Im pretty sure I wont, but there is still hope!

 

There are many companies out there that upgrade stock TPI throttle bodies to 52mm. As I stated throttle bodies are the only thing that I saw that was cheaper as far as intake goes the HSR has a real competitive price campared to name brand mustang intakes. The drive shaft you know you might be right a mustangs drive shaft is cheap as hell I'll give that one to you also. But I bought a aluminum drive shaft off a 2000 camaro for $80 bucks ebay!

I also found alot of machine shop on ebay that make their own parts for the camaro, I can honestly say I built my whole car because of ebay. Check out this list!

Adj panhard bar and adj control arms tubular $200 even
Tubular subframe connectors $120
aluminum drive shaft $80
shocks all for $100
aluminum radiator $100
control arm re-location brackets $59
Aubrun posi and 3:23 gears $80
28 spline axles $28
Drilled and sloted rotors $150
Wonder bar $49
700hp tranny $820
360hp 327 sbc $1100
500hp rated 2600 stall covertor $130
Ceramic headers $286
SVO 30 inj $189
Pulleys $39
Water pump $20
Performance springs $89
Custom ram air boxes $50
B&M shifter $80

Thats $3769
Only the drive shaft, posi, axles and shifter, were used!
Look still enough money out of $5000 to get upgraded vortec heads from Smoke 'n Dickey and a vortec HSR intake. Still $103 left over

Imagine what I could have done if I already had a stock 350 to start with!

 

Oh well in that case I got a brand new intake and Throttle Body for $250, as well as headers for $100 (long tubes), MAF for $100...

Anyone can build cars cheap, I just didnt know what new prices from catelogs look like now as I havent been in the thirdgen market recently (since my cousin and I stopped hanging out).

 

OK, I'll throw in my $.02... I feel qualified on this subject as I've owned a 1989 Formula a 1989 GT and currently a 1990 GT in addition to my current 2000 Z28. All were modded to some extent (my Z28 currently makes 576/590 rwhp/tq) and I am not brand-loyal by any stretch.
Same $5000 into a 1992 L98 Z28 vs a 1992 5.0 Notch and the Mustang will be your winner. Not by a huge margin, but enough that I'd feel comfortable throwing a bet on it.
Everything you have stated for the L98 can be done cheaper on the Stang and with lighter car. Wanna throw a carbed 350 in the Chevy? You can throw a carbed 351 in the Stang just as cheaply. Wanna buy all your stuff on EBay for the Chevy? Type in "5.0 mustang" and check out the prices. If you stay fuel-injected, it's even cheaper for the Stang.
I respect the passion in defense of the 3rd Gens and I am currently looking fo another one myself, but having worked on both, I think Ford wins this fight.
PS- So far this has been a pretty civilized discussion, which is awesome.

 

This is pure speculation, as is every other response (including my own) on this thread. What get's me is, I went out of my way to point out the pieces it would take to get the Camaro running mid to high 10's, for under $5000.00, and yet.... the Mustang enthusiast's (other than 25th), expect me and the other L98 loyalist's to simply take their word.

If you feel the Mustang will win, then explain why, or better yet, how. What would you do to it, for under $5000.00. I'd like to have an idea. We race Mustangs all of the time over here, street or strip, and I've yet to see a Mustang run in the 10's on it's 302 motor naturally aspirated.

I've seen L98-350 (not bored, and maintaing it's 3.48 stroke) Third Generation's, with or without fuel injection (as some rodders opt to yank off the fuel injection, in favor for a carb), and run in the 10's.... with wicked gearing, and suspension.

I've never seen a 302 do that.

Maybe in the 90's....

This entire thread was based on 302 vs 350, was it not? I'd be the first to admit that a 305 wouldn't stand a chance. If you drop a 351 into the Stang, I'll drop a 406 into the Camaro, and on and on and on....

Having worked on both myself, I already know what would happen if you dropped in a Chevy 305, in place of the Ford's 302, in the Fox chassis. Weight has absolutely NOTHING to do with it, as the car ran pretty much the same numbers as when the 305 was in the Camaro....

If weight were that big a factor, then most of these extremely light Imports, with their four bangers (power to weight, matching most Domestic V8's with they're increased weight) should make sub 11 second passes naturally aspirated. But they can't, they need boost.... due to they're lack of torque.

I've seen two ton 72 Monte Carlos, with naturally aspirated 350's, running in the 11's for less than five grand. Weight is irrelevant, to a true hot rodder....

 

Heres the thing I have NEVER seen a thirdgen do anything you mention yet see Mustangs do it every time I run at the track. We are fighting the same deal on opposite sides, you say you only see GMs do it, and never Ford, I say I only see Ford and never GM.

I havent done out a full mod list I would do with $5000, because I dont have $5000 and I do things differently than most people. I could go out there and find all the parts I would buy, and list them put price by price here, but I dont care enough about this fight to do that. If you guys feel the thirdgen would win, then so be it, I will never sway you into believing it wont, and visa versa.

In the end I personally wouldnt choose a thirdgen to go bang for buck drag racing and still remain a street car as I have never seen a combo worth spending the money on to run the number (at any of the tracks I race at), and you guys feel the same about Mustangs, so Ill stick with Mustangs, you stick with thirdgens, and everyone has fun!

 

You know I honestly feel if you go carb on this $5000 bet the camaro might win. Just think AFR heads, 1000 carb and a big freakin cam on a 350!

All the car has to do is hold up for ONE RACE AN ITS OVER!
You tech guys been saying this for years no replacement for displacement! 302 vs 350 thats a lot of cubes between them.

Shoot just to help that 350 out I will strip the car also because every 3gen owner knows all that crap we have in our cars far exceeds in weight compared to a 5.0

 

I'm with you, nice mature post there. I'll be the dick though, you're 12s (with very few mods) and 95% of the cars on this site aren't

 

I dunno how i missed this post, But i agree with IROC on this one

 

25thmustang
The guys I know have the same mods you got even a few more and all they run is 8.6 in a 1/8 with drag lites! Also the guys you know that are running 10s do you think they spent less than $5000???

 

Import guys aren't running 11's because the cars that are light only have 170hp at the most, not because they lack torque.

 

No they dont, but they also have a TON of trick peices to get every bit out oif their cars. Im sure with a $5000 budget and spending it only to go fast for a few passes, they would have spent money elsewhere. Not everyone builds as cheap as possible, most build the car cheap, but safe and reliable. If it was just heres $5000 and a car, I bet everyone would mod their car differently as their goals have changed.

I currently run 8.4s in the 1/8th on 17 radials, and 7.9s on Draglites and slicks, !

 

25th, I've seen street legal 302 Mustang's running in the 9's (with power adders). What I'm telling you, is that I never seen naturally aspirated 302's running in the 10's, but have in fact seen naturally aspirated 350's hitting 10's.

Stu, the point obviously flew right by you, as do most cars...

I live in an area (Tri-State) that thrives on Imports, and I can guarantee you that these cars are making much more than 170hp 'without' boost...

I've been mentioning "naturally aspirated" since my first response, and I guess I'll have to reiterate; In a naturally aspirated race, cubic inches (torque) wins, period.

We've taken so much weight out of a Camaro with the anemic LG4 once (gutted would be an understatement), and there was absolutely NO difference in the 1/4 mile whatsoever.

Two to three hundred pounds in favor for the Fox body is nothing to get excited about. If somebody even mentioned such nonsense at Raceway Park; "oooh, watch out, that guy's car weighs two hundred pounds less than your's", everybody would be laughing their asses off....

It's all a balancing act. Being lighter, doesn't necessarily mean being better. My 454 would twist 25th's Mustang like a pretzel, so it needs to be in a heavier car, to obtain better results.

25th, it's all good. I'm not attacking you.... so don't take my response the wrong way.

 

You're mean.

 

Haha (sticking tongue out)...

 

really a 351 swap would cost more than a 350 swap (the 351 has differant hight so pick motor mounts or a hood) the 350 or any small block chevy just bolts right in and every thing right to it.


for 1000 = stang, 2000 = stang 3000 well maybe the stang anything else I would give the win to the f-body

the stang is really a good car in fact one of the best to start with simple bolt-on parts but, once you dig into a sbc they wake up quick.

I have spent well over 5000 in my car but, what I have in it right now is less than 5000 and I can tell you FULL weight and then some runs 11's easy all day

 

I find it hard to believe that either car would have problems running in the 11's for $5000. I'm pretty sure that I could have accomplished that with my integra. In fact, I might give try out this exact theory with my next car.

 

In fact, I might give try out this exact theory with my next car.


Mazda Miata?

 

Well, it's a tough call because I don't know how strong the Miata motors are. One of my buddies has a friend that's been running 14psi on a stock one for the past four years. If I do the Miata thing, I want to actually build a brand new motor, and get a full stand alone fuel system, so I'll easily go right passed that kind of budget. But I know for a fact that I could do 11's in a Civic or Integra for that budget. It probably wouldn't last much longer than my other Integra did though.

Oh yeah, just remembered that there was a guy who built a Neon that went tens for $2004 including the price of the car. There is some grassroots competition every year where you have to build a car for no more than the dollar amount that the year equals, so that was obviously last year.

EDIT: I personally think that you guys are seriously underestimating what can be done with a car when there is only one single goal in mind. Driveability? No. Legality? No. Cosmetics? No. Long term reliability? No. See where I'm going here?

 

I understand what you say and Im talking naturally aspirated as well. Like I said Im claiming exactly what you are but opposite, what you see for only Fbody I see for only Mustangs...

In the end both cars work well, but remember, there is no NMRA, FFW, MHRA, MOMS, etc... for Fbodys where nearly every track has dedicated Mustang racing leagues with many classes ranging from 11s to 7s!

 

I got a recent car craft magazine with a guy building a ford 302 in a old school 70 something model cobra (looks ugly as hell). The motor is fully built with all new forged parts, over .600 lift cam, fully ported AFR heads, custom built intake (looks like a HSR intake made with sheet metal), custom throttle body, and 30 or 36lbs injectors. The car body is fully prepared to take the power, on slicks the best he got was very low 11s.

The article was called 10s in a 302 even though they didn't get their mark but the next issue they said their going to try some other tricks to get there.

 

This thread is getting on my nerves and I'm sick of reading it.