who would you bet on?
87gta 355 /11:1's/ afr 190's/accell sr(port matched)/30#ers/ .520-.542 230*234*112/ 1.75 LT/ 3" TD exh/ '93t56/ moser w-3.73 3496lbs w/o me 196
versus
91 lx cpe (had a blowe)302/8.75:1/e303/trick flow(smaller cc)/ trick flow intake/big maf/tremec/ 1 5/8 LT's/ 2.5 exh/ 3.73 /somewhat gutted tubular k-mem & arms 4pt cg
i'm guessing 3100 w/o 120lb driverette
i had my old '85 gt down to 2800 and change and back then i was 140lbs

both of are cars have a bunch of susp. stuff too, both of are 60's have been in the low 1.7's thers was with a blower , mine was launching at like 2grand and i broke the axles


i think i could MAYBE take it, but that weight deficit is big.

 

Do u know what size gears in the stang? Also you said had a blower, does it currently have one? I would say this is a close race, i would truthfully bet on the stang if its blown with the mods listed as long as he has a good set of gears, and a manual tranny, he has quite a good weight advantage and if hes good on a launch (at 1.7 60' i would say u both are) he would get my money, if not blown i would put the money on you being that your the better car (meaning GM ) but either way i would not put too much money down

 

Just RACE HIM!!! Please post the results.

 

its actually a her ....so there is some pride involved here guys. just kidding.

blower is long gone, and the gears are 3.73. its that weight issue that levels the playing field, regardless of c.i.d. diff.

i hope to race the car before she gets rid of it. i think it would be a good run both cars have the same mods pretty much.

 

E cam, TFS heads and intake on a bolt on Mustang should go easily mid 12s with a 1.7 60'! Not sure what your car would go, but expect mid maybe even low 12s from that car, and hope you can run faster!

 

I bet on the 355 that is a stout sounding motor. The 302 doesn't have as many suporting mods. Race and find out i would definitley like to see the out come of this.

 

Well with my mods I'm about .3 quicker than a blown Ford similiar to what you are racing. Talking to the Ford guys at the track his runs around 13.0 flat. I'm at 12.71. Your mods may be similiar to mine but you have a bigger cam.

 

No actually if you want to compare you are 2 tenths slower (on tires) or 2 tenths faster than a stock bottem end, stock cam, stock headed Mustang with bolt ons and no power adder!



LOL

I agree if the Mustang is now all motor you should take him, if he had the blower on it he should walk you without worry! Race and post it up!

 

i'll definitely post it. i just have to hustle and road test the new rear end and what not, i didnt get the chip done yet for the bigger exh and new cam, and 30's but i hope i can squeeze by with just adjusting the timing and fuel pressure to work with the old chip.
her car with the blower was ballls fast i cant remember what trim it was but it said "for race use only" on it the inlet side was 4" and the outlet was i think 3" or so.

with my old ported LTR intake and 2200 w/a4 on worn sportsman pros i went
12.94 @ 110 with a suck *** 60

i will definitely post the rsults as soon as the **** goes down.

 

His car should trap close to that 110 if not slightly more so the race should be interesting...

Actually her car!

 

man i cant even get any support here..... you ford people are every where....

with the old setup i trapped 110, i would think the ability of the motor to make power up top (NOT SLAMMING LONG RUNNER FANS! OK!) i hope i would trap better than 110. plus my car hooks now at the track with et streets. i dunno only time will tell, however i'm just enjoying the neighborhood rivalry

 

I've been doing a lot of reading on ford 302 you know getting to know your enemy! An with that 8.75.1 compression w/o a blower
I don't see that engine making big power. The E303 is a little bigger than stock and its running 2.5 exhausts I'd say that car is running 13.4 at best!

Now I'm going to sit here and wait for 25thmustang's repley about my statement. He's going to say NO NO that car can run 12's

WELL I SAY 13.4 **** IT!

 

Well if that car does run 13.4 Im sorry for her. Id hate to spend all that money and run mid 13s...

I will say this, the compression drop does hurt some, but shouldnt hurt that much (and also how accurate is that compression assumption?). The cam itself is better than stock, and with the Heads and Intake will work better than a stocker. The 2.5 exhaust is a MUTE point, as our cars wont gain anything going larger until your deep in the 11s or better. I have seen plenty of 9 second 2.5" exhaust cars. A good set of 1 5/8 headers, into an off road mid pipe into a catback in 2.5" is plenty for our cars!

On street tires my guess for the average one, low 13s to high 12s, and on a tire mid to low 12s! Granted the driver has to get it down the track, and the car has to be tuned (timing and FP, etc...) but to think a HCI Mustang with all the bolt ons is a mid 13 second car... I dont know about that!

But whose to say really... it could run 14s for all I know (I have seen a 432 rwhp Mustang o 14.2 @ 98 on a full track pass)!

 

I new that was comming what took you so long I was sitting here waiting for hours! LOL

 

Uhh, the E-cam has a much broader lobe sep, much more overlap, much more lift, and a hell of a lot more duration - pretty much the exact opposite of the stock HO cam

My car is a similiar build and with 2.73s and a blown trac-lok it ran w/ my brother's '99 Trans Am M6. Got the 3.73s in and rebuilt my trac-lok and w/ my heads I have a similiar comp ratio to the other car and I gotta tell you - if you run a 13.4 with that combo you got some problems

Don't get me wrong, I read your build and it is pretty stout, but the only thing seperating you from the Stang is about 500-600 pounds

Eric

 

Yeah sometimes it takes me a while... All the guesses are worth as much as the other! I would just feel bad if that combo was that much slower than my car with half the mods!

 

yeah i would...gulp.... have to agree with 25th on this one, considering stock 5.0's are what... 9:1 its not that much of a drop, i drove it last week it pulls good and sounds something fierce(<?)that motor is pumping alot more air than a 10:1 302 with stock heads,cam,intake
just imagine when they get that t-76 on it nobody will be crying about compression then.

 

all i am saying is modd for mod are cars are the same, i think it would be a match up . 53 cubes is neggated by 5-600lbs weight advantage. how would that car weigh you think?
i'm guessing 3210 with mrs.driver
and my pig at 3800 w/ me

 

i don't think your car weighs that much. My fully loaded 4th gen T/A weighed 3750 raceweight and I was 250 when I took that reading.

 

Don't get me wrong, I read your build and it is pretty stout, but the only thing seperating you from the Stang is about 500-600 pounds

Maybe a stock camaro but not mine! I put my ride on a 300lb diet!
A thirdgen does weigh a little less than a 4thgen and those foxes weigh about 3010. So 500lbs is about right.

Just so you mustang guys know it ain't that engine that makes those cars run fast its that light *** car of yours! Just about every 302 engine build up I read with the mods you mention has them rated at 380 hp or less CRANK!

I guess thats why I can get my 66 nova in the 10's. I would much rather spank a mustang with my camaro but the weight issue makes it challenging. My goal right now is to beat two SC mustangs with all motor yes I know very challenging.

So 25th how much hp/tq does a SC mustang run with 6 to 8 psi?

 

The motors arent what makes tghe car good, the whole package does. A 302 is a GREAT base to make power, by design. Shorter stroke, plenty strong for most street applications and in this day and age, you can make whatever power you want however you want with them (some comboes might need a stronger block). Your problem is your READING about builds, whereas I take part in them and see the cars perform... I personally could care less about what a dyno tells me... it means nothing in the real world. My dads car dynoed 212 rwhp, yet full weight with a 200 lb driver went 13.3s all day long. According to the dyno he had a weak car, yet 13.3 @ 101 is hard to call weak. My car doesnt make all that much power, and is a full weight daily driver, yet if you got next to me in an LS1 and we ran, youd probably be surprised!

I understand a 350 will make more power, but at the realm of where the 350 makes more power and becomes a better choice (sticking it in a street car) its a mute point. I have seen plenty of 350+ rwhp Mustangs that are street driven and you can even go further if you want. But most of the guys I know dont care about dyno numbers but care about track times, which the whole package is all about!

 

My dads car dynoed 212 rwhp, yet full weight with a 200 lb driver went 13.3s all day long.

That statement right there just proves my point! The whole package starts with a light weight car! Weight is always a huge factor in any drag setup thats why stock 94 an up GTs arent making those same times because they weigh 3400 to 3500 lbs same as the camaros. Thats what make the old fox bodies special!

Now you know you would love to put a new GT engine in your ride because that setup will totally smash the ETs your getting now.

 

Oh I do agree, but noone races a motor... they arce a combo. This is why I drive a Mustang and not an Fbody, the Mustang as a whole combo (motor, tranny, rear, and the car itself) was a much easier, and I personally think better way to go fast, for cheap while still retaining daily drivability, good gas mileage and what I feel is a good looking car!

If I had the funds to drop a Ford GT motor in my car... Id probably do it and have a nice little car!

 

having owned an '85GT and numerous f-bodies and working on all makes and models of every brand froma collision stand point, i can say that are reasons why the foxes and ford products were so affordable, they dont well outta the box and really dont stop all that well either from the factory , i think what a 3rdgn lack in motoRvation it more than makes up for in ride(sports), overall build quality and ergonomics, i mean for christ sakes its a small block! you can find parts for one at 7eleven. i will say that built a better PURPOSE built afforable straight line screamer with the factory equipment to back it (post '86)

 

Damn it, you beat me to the punch! I was going to chime in re: the physics of the 302 (ie. SAME bore as a 350, and short stroke = quick, powerful revs).

Aside from that, as you said, the whole package isn't a bad deal. Unlike F-bodies, when you reach a certain power level you don't have to swap out the rear - an 8.8" is plenty for street/strip cars. The trans is fine well into the 12s (at least mine is, knock on wood), and parts are cheap and plentiful. Look at how many people make an intake manifold for a 86-93 Mustang - BBK, Edelbrock, FRPP, TFS, (BXR!!!), etc. How many people make them for TPI? AND, what is the cost of it to even the bottom the barrel 5.0 manifold for BRAND NEW less than $300? I don't think it should come as a surprise taht the gross majority of drag cars are Foxes.

I have to agree w/ 25th on his statement - I've had many F-bodies, but the cheapest and fastest car I've driven was my Stang. Still love the looks of the 3rd Gens tho

Eric

 

alot of people make intakes because they are jumping on a band wagon / phenomenon of the 5.0 mustang. i bet there is less than 15hp diff' across the board if all those intakes were tested on the same mule.
how many LT1 based intakes are out there for 4th gens .......still thinking? the lack of after market support can mean a copuple of things, take a look at a summit catalog for example the f-bodies only have like 3 pg's where as the stangs have like 5or 6, one could say that an ls1/lt-1 car doesnt need as much aftermarket support to achieve what a fox would require to reach the same goal.or the manufactures of the ford based stuff know they can flood the market with the same basic **** and people will still buy it just to have the "next best thing since sliced bread" think about it mc donalds, wendys, bk, sonic, steakn****, jesus even krystal ....they all sell friggin burgers!
as far as weight = slow . well has anybody here beat an E55 "Kompressor" lately those are easy 4Klbs and run low 12's with the air on

 

You might see the huge aftermarlet as a down side, but as an owner of the car I love it. I love having choices, and being able to spend a little and get a lot! The LS1 and LT1 starts off faster, but with such a huge and cheap aftermarket it evens out pretty easily, and the potential of all the motors is far more than the average car guy could possibly need! Even the 4.6s can be made into really whatever you want nowadays!

 

The 4" bore debate doesn't hold much weight. All SBC and Ford 302's are under valved motors. The valves are horribly shrouded. The larger bores only help alleviate this but not because it is a certain diameter. Cubes make power. RPM's don't. Head design aside, a 302 and a 305 have the same power potential. A motor with a longer stroke will just make its power lower in the RPM range. Peak values will remain roughly the same. The bore stroke ratio debate holds little weight to total potential power of a motor. Head design and engine layout do. There are plenty of motors with less than a 4" bore that make more power than the afore mentioned small blocks.

The 4.6 DOHC cam ford motor will always make more power than a similary equipped 302 even with a smaller bore.


SLP, Accell, TPiS, Edelbrock, and Holley all make manifold replacements for the TPI. TPI is a serious hinderance by design so you won't see the same type of support without a complete induction change. However, the stealth ram which is one of the best options, retails for $390.


The LT1 intakes don't have any aftermarket replacements because it is an "untuned intake". Its short runners and huge plenum can feed motors making over 600hp. There is no need for an aftermarket intake because GM already did the homework on that one. Same goes for the LS1 but since it was "tuned" there are replacements that better tailor different engine combos. Lets not even talk about heads. Over the last 14 years there have been only a few aftermarket heads for the GM gen II and III motors. Even at that, those heads had only slight improvements that better fit them to large displacement motors. Other than cams, you really have everything you need to make monster power with a GM Gen II and III motor.

Weight is the killer. The fox body has a cheap aftermarket and it is tailored to a mass produced ligthweight car that is easily available. In the end that becomes the cheaper route. Not because of the motor.

 

Well put, I was going to chime in on this debate myself. I agree 100% and couldn't have said it better.

Shifty is very correct in talking about Gen 2s and 3s. The stock casting LT1 heads are good for 275 CFM flow after porting, and the intake flows like a hurricane. The only step up from an LT1 intake is a custom made sheetmetal rig on top of a single plane intake, i.e. a Victor Jr. With the Gen 2 you can invest $1100 and get a cam and ported stock casting heads - fully assembled - from Lloyd Elliot. Combine that with a full exhaust, bigger TB, injectors and tuning and you'll have 370-390 RWHP and run 11s consistantly. Get a bigger cam and port the heads a little more and 430 RWHP is very possible.

Not to mention 4th gens come with a T-56, which everyone will agree is quite a step up from a T-5.

I'm unsure of exact specs of Gen 3 pieces, but they're equally as impressive. They're actually easier to make power with, although a bit more expensive due to being new technology.

 

people tend to forget is that the TPI was based on the flow capabilties of a 305 cyl. head. imagine if the stock 5.0 intake was based on the old 260 cyl heads. how well would a 302 work then i wonder.
my opinion is that GM could've had more to offer the thirdgen buyers if they would've invested more on the powertrain (emphasis on POWER) however all it wouldve done is raised prices even more and threaten the beloved vette in terms of straight line performance

tubular manifolds instead of nasty castiron logs, alittle more cam or even the factory vette stick, and share the 6spd. and a strip down model NOT! an L03 and 5spd, (no offense guys )

the only other lt-1 intake is the LT-4 but that requires the appropriate(raised runners)LT-4 head

 

The LT4 manifold isn't even sold by GM anymore. Everyone thought they needed one to go fast and bought all of them. In reality it's slightly better only because the heads flow maybe 10cfm more. After porting it doesn't matter at all and it's really a complete waste of money.

If they had offered thirdgens with a 350/5-speed I'm sure they would have competed with the 'Vette just a little too well.

 

I think the Mustang is a 12 sec car with good driving and a good launch. The low CR might cost about 10 crank horsepower if that. Back in the late 90s while swapping blowers I ran with less than nine to one CR and on street radials with GT40 heads and F cam and hit 12.9 -13.1 at 109-111MPH. My LX was heavy too(sunroof,ac,ps,stock wheels,convertable bracing and subframe connectors-3200 pounds or so)

 

i would have to agree with both of the recent post , now the owner of the stang doesnt want anything to do with the car or even settling our little grudge match she says over the whole car thing, it may have something to do with tranny troubles or that i'm practicially best friends with her exboyfriend i dunno but i hope i can change her mind or at least find out her car can run in the 1/4 hell i'd even drive, i dont care.

off subject/ my fuel rail leaks at the cap for the 9th inj.would be, nice huh....