Buddy with a VTEC Civic 95 no mods except for Intake and exhaust
thinks he can take
87 T/A 305 Tpi, Slp Intake Runners, Gutted, Ram Air, Hooker System
What do you think

and While im on the subject ... what about a 93 Ford Taurus 3.8L

I HATE RACING PEOPLE WITH ****TY CARS
I got some good Mustang races the other day
I WANT SUMMER 4 THE DRAG TRACK

 

you know it seems that at least once maybe twice a month we get the "can I whoop a Vtec civic" yes you can trust me.as long as those are the only mods you will hand him his ****.I wouldn't even worry about the taurus.unless it's a SHO then you might have a problem.

 

As long as your LB9 is in a good tune you'll win both races by a rather enormous margin.

 

I HATE HEARING RACING STORIES FROM PEOPLE WITH SH*TTY CARS. Come on, you drive some junker 305 and you're calling a Civic Sh*tty?

By the way, yes, you should be able to beat him.

 

No offense but in today's day and age your car isn't any scream machine either.

 

Yeah really man, take it easy on the 305, ive learned alot about respect for them after joining this site.

 

Eh, given his mods he could easily have a high 14 second car. Truly no longer a "scream machine", but still faster than quite a few people who think they have fast cars, if that makes any sense. At least he's not in stock Civics and Taurus's challenging them, though the fact that he's accepting races against cars like that is equally humorous. I'd do the same thing in all honesty if I had stock Civics and Taurus's lining up to race me, but it's still funny to think about.

 

i had a 305 bored .30 flat tops, a cam and 4.10s and headers and ran a 14.2 so with what he has he should be at least a 14.5 if it's stick

 

well i had a 89 tpi 305 auto that was bored .030 and a 95 civic ex 5 speed "v-tec" that was pure stock and it safe to say that the TA will win but the 95 civic will keep up fairly good.

 

LOL

The questions about racing a civic/taurus/accord/toyota sienna/jeep are getting really old. Why doesn't someone go race something fast and come back and post after they actually have some results?

At least go race a mustang or something.. but come on.. a stock civic?

I blew the doors off a V6 mustang last night, and an RX-8 this morning.. but wouldnt make a thread about it lol because both of those cars are pathetically slow

 

The only reason i race them is that their friends at my school and their just looking for some fun so w/e I want to get to the track b/c then i can get some times and real races in... oh stu I dont think any Civic or Taurus that is not naturally asperated could stand a chance with a 305 so stop talking bad on them they aint that slow dude...

 

I think (hope) you meant "that is naturally aspirated".

 

infact i just took a Vtech and i have a lg4..
but as my friends always say, you hear this v-8 pumpin sounding good, seeming like its goin 100 plus planning to blow by ya, and then you see it, its just tryin to hit 50... ahahaha, but i love my 305, and i dont care anymore what stu has to say, you should take a vtec, and stu dont take that personal because well, its not a shout out for you to start yelling at me...
and btw, YES MY CAR IS SLOW PSSHHHH but hey, we all gotta start somewhere, mainly when your TA was 160 bucks..

 

You mean naturally aspirated, and it's VTEC. No "h."

 

Sorry to hijack this but again I have to say this....

84Transam305...you're a tool and stu is the man...the end

 

 

hahaha

I think a newer Civic Si would take any stock LG4/L03 car. They have the same (or more) hp, can't remember, and they weigh alot less. They are however, *** ugly.

 

a civic could never beat a v8 .because v8s are so awsome like the super race motor Lg4!!!!!.if you want a fast car you dont buy a lg4 or a l03 maybe a l69 those you can work with .i just wondering how long its going to be before honda starts makeing low-end power bands that hang around into the 7000rpm mark.when that happens you will see some fast *** 4 bangers (stock)

 

wow i see this part of the forum hasn't changed. stu still has a pointless post in every thread! either knockin down a member or knockin down a members car...

I guess some things never change

 

Our cars are not getting any younger. Today's designs are getting better and better, and it will be quite soon when a stock four-door N/A econobox will be able to match the power levels a stock (key word, STOCK) basic third-gen (even with a V-8) can produce, *especially* the early and low-output ones. I'm not busting on third-gens (I own two) but unless one starts putting some quality upgrades and modifications into their ride, you can reasonably expect to be beaten by some 'weaker' and 'inferior' cars that are produced today. It's called progress.

As far as an LG4 or an LO3 goes, you could always cam it and throw some better-flowing stuff onto it (intake, heads, exhaust, better carb or whatever) and then you would have the awesome L69, or an LO3 that will actually breathe properly. Plus, everyone throws them away becasue they're junk, so buying an LG4/LO3-equipped car wouldn't cost much - more money for quality modifications, and if one was to go ahead and drop in that 350, they already have the basic modifications in place, you can reuse an intake manifold, headers, and so on. If one 'needs' 350 cubes and TPI (or more) to whoop up on a Civic, I only need 231 of them. (Boost is more addictive then crack! )

 

You guys like to call the LO3's junk alot but we do have some pretty stout budget builds.

 

True you can build them.. but you can go faster easier with other engines to work with. I'd take an LG4 over an L03, for the basic fact it has better heads (imo) and it's already carb'd.

L03s require head work (swirl ports are junk compared to the LB9 or L98 heads imo) and induction mods and lots and lots of tuning to work properly. Just put a carb on it, save some cash and time, and go faster.

 

Slightly off topic...

Why would an L69 be a better engine to start with versus an LG4? If you get any LG4 past '84 they are essentially they same as an L69 minus the cam and exhaust, which would need to be changed out on either engine anyway (that is, if you are looking for performance). Both engines have knock sensors, they have the same heads and intake and the compression ratio is identical (minus the '87 LG4s which had 9.3--still not that bad). The air cleaner is way better on the L69, but a $30 open element air cleaner will take care of that or you can fab up your own L69 air cleaner. The only thing that I can think of that might cost more money on an LG4 is a better set of gears, since most of them came with 2.7x, whereas the L69 got the 3.73s.

You can pretty much spend the same money on either engine and get the same peformance out of both of them.

 

Here is how I look at it, people do not expect a tbi RS camaro to be fast, when you come into other engines that came in Z28's or IROCs people expect them to be fast. I would rather work with my LO3 because for one, nobody has them and for two excluding the tuning, you can make lots of power from stock parts from other engines, so you do not have to spend alot of money if you do not want to. This is all while getting decent gas milage, the LG4's I have seen get no gas milage.

 

My LG4 is out of tune and I get 12-13 mpg city driving. Once my buddy gives me his L69 QJet and I rebuild it, I'm expecting 17-18 or so.

LG4s can get good gas milage for a carb'd V8, unless something is messed up like the carb tuning (like my case).

 

[QUOTE=pvt num 11]Our cars are not getting any younger. Today's designs are getting better and better, and it will be quite soon when a stock four-door N/A econobox will be able to match the power levels a stock (key word, STOCK) basic third-gen (even with a V-8) can produce, *especially* the early and low-output ones. [QUOTE]

Ya technology is getting better and better. Here is a list of what the "Average" car runs year by year. For the most part the newer cars are faster. I think soon it will go down again due to gas prices, but its a good example. Not sure how accurate this is but if you look at 2003 its already got an lg4 or lo3 car beat.

btw- I may have posted this before, but it proves a point.

1986 8.74 16.50
1987 9.25 16.89
1988 8.39 16.34
1989 8.38 16.28
1990 8.34 16.24
1991 8.02 15.99
1992 8.25 16.19
1993 8.33 16.20
1994 7.86 15.91
1995 7.65 15.72
1996 7.88 15.91
1997 7.95 15.99
1998 8.06 16.08
1999 8.03 16.09
2000 7.92 16.03
2001 7.81 15.85
2002 7.58 15.69
2003 7.62 15.70

 

lol it does seem like most ppl in kills on this forum arent driving anything real fast... alot of the threads are 305 threads with minimal mods.. its kinda funny

but by all means my car isnt fast either.. but someday it will be. but i do race most whatever challenges me. win or lose its just some fun to me. but i only do in good areas where there are no places for cops.. and that means only a few areas and little race activity. lol

 

187 LO3 heads outflow 416 LG4 heads on the exhaust side and only minimally on the intake side. You pick the lesser of two evils. You can make 300hp with untouched stock LO3 heads. Dewey316 did a dyno comparison of a before and after head swap. He ran his untouched 187 heads and then swapped ported 416s and only saw a slight hp gain above 4200rpm with the ported 416's. At every point below that mark the stock siwrl ports embarassed the 416's. Had he ported the 187's he would have without a doubt made more average power above 4200 rpm. The swirl ports are fast burn heads and do not require a lot of timing and make great low end torque. Although not ideal for an all out drag car, that sees over 5000rpm, they are unmatched by any TPI head for street use. Doesn't sound like junk to me

The swirl port heads are missunderstood but the facts don't lie. Fast355 has also made 350hp on his 312 LO3 with 187 heads.


TBI and TPI head flow data

We like these heads now

 

i think the heads are fine, its just that the intake system leaves some to be desired... TPI isnt all that great either but its better than TBI from what i seen.

but to the topic... the only civics you shoud worry about are turbo civics and nitrous bolt on B16/B18/GSR/ITRs in full weight sedan trims

and for gutted hatchbacks and sedans... look for same stuff and now look for n/a motors... built B16's and GSR/ITR B18's, etc. also the more rare K series swaps, and H22's for sure!

these motors with bolt ons and cams will make near 200whp if not over that. might not seem like much but in a 1900-2200lb car, they will do 13's at near 100mph. aint no joke now.

 

Stock 305s, arent slow I guess but are far from fast...

Second your a dumbass if you dont think an N/A Taurus can beat you. Im pretty sure most of the SHOs they produced would run with or beat most of the 305s they produced. Say hello to a low 15 high 14 second ALL MOTOR 6 cylinder family sedan! So go sit back in your corner before you start to talk even more out of your a$$! Not to mention the SI Civis werent bad, and there were a lot of high 15 and slower 305s produced! We will send you messages every now and then from the world, alright.

 

I was going to say this pretty much word for word until I read this post.

 

The 305 TPI with the 5 speed was only a few tenths slower than your beloved 5.0 GT, stock for stock. And I wouldn't count on ANY stock 1993 3.8Taurus taking one. They are turds.

The car in mention is an auto, but nonetheless it will rape the 93 3.8 Taurus. An SHO is a substantial step above one, so please don't mention it. Would you mention a new 300hp V8 Impala SS in the same sentence as the 211 hp 3.5 baseline Impala in a conversation about speed? No.
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NO gas mileage? I'm confused. 0 Mpg? Do they run out of gas while starting?



I know what you meant. And I wouldn't put a 85+ (i.e., high compression) LG4 with a good tune much behind a similar L03 car in gas mileage. Both cars essentially have electronically metered carbs, they just call yours TBI.

 

Hmm, more potential than I would have thought from them. I still don't see any advantage to using them against going aftermarket or to another (better) stock casting head though (alum L98s, vortecs, converted LT1s, etc...), besides cost. You already have them, so they're essentially free.

According to those results, the 113 heads outflow 187s by a decent amount about 35 cfm on the intake. How would those not be better heads? They're aluminum as well. Or consider Vortec heads, for $500 you can get a fully assembled set, and they flow a decent amount more than 187s. Stock vortecs, XE276HR cam, and a carb has routinely seen 400 hp from what I've read on these boards.

Making 300 hp on stock L03 heads? What was the combo that did that? How did it drive? Did he swap to a real set of heads afterward to see the result?

I have no doubts that 300 hp is possible, but the true potential of the combo is going to be snuffed by the swirl ports.
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My friend's stockish (flowmaster, open element) '85 Z28 LG4 A4 with 200k+ on the clock just got 248 miles to one tank. Very comparable to an L03 imo. My '97 only got 158 on her last 11 gallons.. of course I was stepping on it a LOT This morning I pulled 17 mpg in city with her, so all is well

 

The only way to feel better than you do when you are right is to take your pants off.

 

Just to give you some insight into the import world. my cousin lives in california.

Has a 95 Eagle talon TSi. All wheel drive, turbocharged 5 spd.. 730 AWHP and 33psi boost. runs 11.2's on street tires..

any contenders?

he spankd the sh*t out of a 700hp 1g camaro drag car here in my town when he came down after college graduation..

 

They are better heads in regards to potential power however they come at a cost and are not real good examples compaired to 187/416 heads. Also, the 113 heads have 58 cc chambers and although same as the iron 305 head chamber size, they are aluminum and you would want to mill them to use one of the sole advantages of aluminun (no one wants a 9.3:1 CR with AL heads).



You are right but running vortec heads on a 305 also require additional work. The 64 CC chambers are not what you want to run on a 305 and you would want to mill at least .020 from them to retain a 9.3+:1 CR. You will also need a vortec specific intake whereas if you used ported 187's or 416's you can use any intake. This is all added cost that the basic hot rodder doesn't want. I plan to run 12's on my free ported 187's. Stay tuned



He was running an ultradine cam (specs escape me but they were around .470 lift and 215 duration @ .050 on a 112 LSA) on stock guides. He had a Wieand wingle plain intake with a TBI adapter palte, stock TBI unit (with 65lb'ers), hooker 2055's, and 3.42 gears, and lots of chip work. Dewey is a TBI chip genius and he is one of the people that have dissprioved all hearsay with his tuning skills. People knock the SP heads becaus they never learned them. I too was one in this boat. He ran a 13.8 (IIRC) on all motor and a 12.9 with a 100 shot. Stock untouched TBI heads.

So far all of the flow and dyno data that Fast355 and Dewey have reported show that the 187 heads have the same (if not more) potential than any other stock cast Gen I head. No gen I head is considered a "performance" head. Only the Gen II and Gen III heads fall into that category. So, you are right in the sence that an expensive aftermarket alternative would be better. However, for the basic hot rodder 350 hp potential with the heads you have is appealing and is enough to make an LO3 a threat.

Fast355 also ran a 15.5 witrh his 187 headed 312 in a 5500 lb chevy van. In a 3400lbn 3rd gen that would have without a doubt ran low 13's with little engine work.

Sorry for being off topic. SP heads are a sore subject for me because I am seeing "real" evidence/data now that is shaping my opinion of them. My 187 project will be scary. Stay tuned.

I am not trying to say you are wrong. I too was once the biggest skeptic. More so than anyone on this board. However, as an engineer, I cannot deny the trends, data and or track times. I am only left to duplicate the results myself. So far so good . This is also comming from someone who has an LS1 and LS2 to play with through friends.

Back to your regular thread.

 

730awhp and only 11.2 on street tires? not very impressive. should be abit quicker than that. 9's on slicks. the AMS 600awhp evo was running 35psi i believe... how is he making 730awhp on 33psi?

and a 700hp drag camaro should kill that car because rwd drag setup cars outlaunch everything. i'm not innocent to the import world.. i'm on a few forums actually

 

Agreed. A local turbo LS1 in our club makes 650 at the wheels and runs 9.85 at 145mph. This once again proves that average power and consistant power wins races. Peak power holds little merit.

 

My cousins car was built by AMS....
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I do agree with this..

 

WOW another internet warrior...

FIRST read what he wrote. He mentioned no naturally Aspired Taurus or Civic will beat a 305. Guess what thats what I was referring to, the fact that an SHO (which believe it or not falls into the category of naturally aspired Taurus) is much faster than MOST 305s, and will run right with a TPI 5-speed car! SO now that you have proved you cant read, or cannot follow a conversation, please sit down and be quiet...

And dont worry about my beloved 5.0. Im not worried about the 305s in my area! Stock for stock they might be right behind, but then again I dont know many people with stock cars!

 

i thought SHO's were 4.6 V8's??? the early ones are 220 hp 3.0 v6's and the newer ones are 235 hp 3.4's v6's. thats surprising to me...

there is a guy on svt performance claiming to beat a Z28 Ls1 car with his mild modded gutted out 92 SHO. i highly doubt thats the norm based on his mods... but he claimed the car trapped 94mph stock with slipping clutch. to me that seems abit high with 220hp and near 3100lb curb weight and fwd. but preludes are 2900ish and heard of 92-94mph traps stock or with CAI/exhaust. so i guess its possible. that makes for a quick enough car to take on weaker versioned 305's and **** poor running L98's

 

Hey you're the mod, you can get off topic! haha

I am definetely looking forward to seeing results on your own 187 project. If they're what you're hoping for, I might even look into an L03 car for my daily driver

 

The SHOs had a few motors. the early ones had the 3.0 V6, and then they switched to a 3.2 which made more power and were the fastest. Then they droped those with the new body style and put the 3.4 V8 in, which werent as good as the 6cyl motors, and had reliability issues. But the older SHOs were quick cars, and when compared to 305s my money would probably be on the SHO more times than not!

Beating LS1s with them, not unless the LS1 driver sucked something horrible!

 

I didnt know that LG4's can average 25 mpg like some LO3's.

 

I calculated 25 mpg with my lg4 on a 600 mile trip(highway)

 

If I wanted economy, I'd drive my wife's car.... However, it would be nice if my wife's car had a V8 in it with that sort of mileage, and not the torqueless 1ZZ-FE Toyota engine it has now.

 

I agree with STU on ****ty races with non-sport vehicles, but I do not like the fact that most of you find it ok for him to talk sh*t about F-Body's when this is a Camaro and Firebird forum? Although at times he is right about stock for stock vehicles racing and proving who the victor is, I will never side with the Import loving folk...
Let it be known that Camaros and Firebirds have outlasted Honda vehicles and out performed them as well. You don't see many 1967 Hondas on the road do you? not even in Japan...course I've never been to Japan, but one could only imagine since Japan is a Modern Nation and highly technological they are prone more to having newer cars.

Point is Camaros are no junker cars, everycar is a junker depending on the owner who maintains it the least. Imports are very ugly cars compared to American cars In my opinion.

 

Stu doesn't bash our cars. He poetically makes fun of stupid members. 95% of people on this forum fail to see his humor. He is harmless.


Out performed, yes. Outlasted? Uh....I am not to sure on that one chief. I don't see to many civics on blocks.

By the time 1967 rolled around GM had been making cars for 60+ years and Honda for only a few. With the exception of Ford I would say that they had a good start over any other maker. The market and technology was a lot different back then. Also, in 1967 there was roughly 1 honda sold for every couple thousand GM vehicles sold. Do don't see any 1967 Honda's because there were like five on the road.

I don't see any 1961 Chevy Corvair Lakewood Wagons on the road either? Why is that? Only a little over a thousand were sold. It’s the law of averages here.

They aren't more technological per se, but instead they apply it better. The good old USA has the best technology on the planet.



Beauty is in the eye of the beholder and non-quantifiable statements hold little merit.

 

Dont think they were to popular to rebuild not exactly a classic car
But i get what your kinda saying.

 

In Japan, once your car reaches around 30,000 miles, you get a new one. I'm sure you'd have to know your own head from your ******* before you'd know a nice little trivia piece like that, but whatever.