Shift06

Nice, isn't there a new F430 based CS coming out soon? That will be sweet.

rv1890

iTrader: (3)

944??? Thats the biggest piece of S*** porsche ever made. I bet Ferdinand turned in his grave when they made that sh** in the 80's.

RainMaker- u grab ur stock 944, ill grab my stock iroc...lets see who wins the ring!!

K-dawg

...the iroc would get raped, those thing only push under300hp from the factory and their designed to be stoplight to stoplight "racers" if anything, if you try to drive one of those things up to speed vs a porsche you don't happen to realize that the highline german stuff even the 944 were MADE to drive at highspeeds and stay there not just get up to them and have to worry about breaking something.

R4][N_M4l{3R

First: I have a 944 Turbo S (not regular 944), which will beat an IROC stock for stock in a straight line or a road course.

Second: Driving skill is about 99% of running the 'ring (or any roadcourse for that matter) and I am confident in mine, doubtful of yours.

Third: The 944 Turbo S outperforms the same gen 911 in every way, and has a near perfect 50/50 weight distribution, combined with its price, In many ways it is one of the finest cars Porsche ever made.

Fourth: Your stock IROC's brakes would not last one lap of the ring, putting you in serious danger of brake fade or failure, cracked/warped rotor, etc. Your decision to ignore this fact supports my opinion that you have no road course knowledge or skill.

Fifth: You are a joke. Don't try to insult me.

Sixth: With equal drivers, a stock 944 (of any trim level) will always outhandle a stock IROC. Don't pretend to think otherwise.

You are free to disagree, and I will continue to attempt to educate you, but please don't flame.

rx7speed

if your going to use some strong way to describe it can you back it up? you know proof of the 944 being so bad?

Rayvan

Question:
Is your Z28 a T-top car?

R4][N_M4l{3R

Yes, why? If you are trying to make a chassis stiffness referance I am miles ahead of that curveball

rv1890

iTrader: (3)

ive had a stock 944 in the past and a modded 87 Bmw325. my slightly modified iroc surpasses them both. and yes i do place confidence in my driving.

R4][N_M4l{3R

In speed and acceleration, surely, but it would not outhandle either car.

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

what about a 1LE car? lol

and what kind of brakes does the 944 come with?

and an IROC is a generic term...there alot of different trims available on those cars. i'm not even sure the suspension package on each Irocz is the same for all years.

oldtimer

When you look back on the 3rd gen in its heyday, they were highly regarded for their handling prowess, more so than acceleration. As far back as the 1982 3rd gen introduction, the car's handling was considered first rate. Car & Driver cited it as the best handling American car in 84. The Z and TA did well in the "Red Speed" articles. August 82 CD compared the Z, TA, Mustang, and God's own 928. The Z did their slalom at 61.2, vs the 928 at 60.4. Partial quotes: " the Camaro cuts and thrusts with the Porsche", "the Z28 responds with the keen linearity--of the better Porsches, Ferraris, and Lotuses of the world" . Later in Oct 84 on the 85 IROC " able to hold its head high among some of the WORLD'S best GT machines." Keep in mind that these were new, performance versions of these cars back then--not today's 25 year old clapped out Sport Coupes, Berlinettas, etc. We had a vacant subdivision that we used to run around back then. I can't tell you how much fun we had embarassing Supras, RX7's, 280Z's, etc. on this little road course of our own. The imports would roll heavily onto their outside tires and squeal around the turns on their door handles, while the Z28's would just roll through without drama at high speeds. I have owned plenty of cars since then ( an 06 Viper coupe outside right now) and few have had the turn in and transient response of my 82 Z28 or that of a fresh IROC. Not trying to offend anybody or highjack the thread. Just trying to introduce editorial and personal evidence pertinent to the discussion. Thanks, Oldtimer.

S!MON

just have a look:

http://www.cardomain.com/ride/243390/2





But sorry, no times.

It was back in the days when the car wasn't crashed, and had the bad cooper tires and stock suspension.

I'm rebuilding a new one with my well done 350 and some more suspension mods. Then I will be back on track.

It is really a great feeling to race that racetrack, like a rollercoaster with a Camaro

Greetings from Germany,

Simon

R4][N_M4l{3R

Very interesting. Your cardomain link isn't working unfortunetly.

S!MON

Try this one:

www.cardomain.com/id/kermitclein

Then site 2.

Rayvan

Just making sure.

In about 1988 I'd test driven both a t-top GTA and a hardtop IROC that my buddy owned . The difference was so dramatic, that when I bought 'my 89 in '88 I made an effort to put in a special factory order for my Formula in order to *not* get the t-tops. Seems if you wanted a hard-top, you got the piddly brakes, the cheesy exhaust and the TBI motor. If you wanted all the go-fast stuff, it alway came with the damn t-tops. I wanted all the go fast goodies (brakes exhaust, WS6 level III package), but I did not one with the flexi-flier T-Tops.

The difference in handling made it worth the three month wait.

Sounds like you stiffend your t-top car up a bit then? At first I got the impression you're comparing the best of the Porsche (Audi) front-engine cars (944S) with one of the worst handling F-Bodies. Guess not.


See Ya

R4][N_M4l{3R

What do you mean when you say "Porsche (Audi)"

When you say Audi you are thinking of the 924. The 924 Was Designed by Porsche to be sold by VW/AUDI using a VW/AUDI I4. VW then decided to dump the design and promote the scirocco instead. Porsche bought the car back and sold it under their name. The 944 was developed after by Porsche, and uses a Porsche designed 4cyl motor desended from the 928 V8..

It's a commom misconception that the cars were somehow VW/Audi designed and is simply not true.

The 924 was built by Porsche, for VW/Audi with a VW/Audi engine, but sold by Porsche.

The 944 was built by Porsche for Porsche using a Porsche engine and sold by Porsche.

Rayvan

So you agree that niether the 924 or the 944 would exist if not for Audi. The 944 was based on the 924 (The interior was the same).

Camaro5690

iTrader: (1)

A camaro outhandles and 80s BMW 3 Series you kidding me. Ive driven both and I know that my Camaro will outhanlde the BMW, Bmw didnt do as great in the 80s with the 3 series as they are doing now. I know I probably couldnt outhandle a new BMW but 80s I know I could.

InfernalVortex

iTrader: (4)

Awesome shots, is the first one near Hohe Acht? No idea where the second one is either unless it's the end of hatzenbach headed towards flugplatz...

R4][N_M4l{3R

No I don't agree. Porsche was phasing out the 914 and needed something to replace it in their model lineup. Thats exactly what they did.

S!MON

Tge first shot is in Bruennchen, thats somer corners after Hohe Acht I think. The second one should be some corner before Adenau.
I know where are the turns on the track but I always forget how the sections are named

InfernalVortex

iTrader: (4)

Hah, Bruunchen was going to be my other guess...

Not quite as distinctive as he karrussel or Pflanzgarten, though, but probably my favorite section of the track.

Hopefully I Get to drive it for real someday.

BADCAM70

Sorry to say i have not taken my 3rd gen around the "Green hell" yet but i will not this summer but next i will defintely go there,i am updating my chassie with Koni Yellow and Eibach springs and some power upgrades to the engine then i will go down there and go really slow around it would be nice if i can make it in 9minutes.
As far as i see the 3rd gen have some severe shortcomings 1st its to heawy and to underpowered to make a good time at the Ring,the good thing is that if you drive correct around the Ring you dont use brakes that much another shortcoming of the 3rd gen so brakes is not that much of an issue.
All in all i would say a stock 1LE car would be hard pressed to make a 8minutes run around the Ring,If you stick in a 6speed and some 300rwhp good R-tires voila your down to 8.15-8.30 i would guess at best and that is with a driver who have made some 50-100laps.
When i show up at track days in Sweden among other track car fans they look amused and comment "interesting choice for a track car"
Rainmaker you are dead on right with your assumptions sounds like you have been there almost !?
Dont be fooled a 944T is a very competent car it will kill any stock 3rd gen in straitline race or at the track with similar drivers,actually most 944T/968 club cars outperforms all those "911" except the GT versions as far as i have seen at the meetings.
For all u Ring fans web camera at the Ring entrence updated every ten minutes something fun to see what excotic rides is about to enter:



I love my 3rd gen but it have some limitations stock but some money and time will definitely make it a good track car and i am slowly getting there

R4][N_M4l{3R

Haha, never been but I would absolutely love to go! Road racing knowledge is pretty much universal though so it applies wherever you are. You make an interesting point about the braking lines though. You are right on about the 944T, good to have someone else share that view The 944/968 are better balanced cars than the 911 series. Having the engine in the front and transaxle in the rear gives the car an almost perfect weight balance, to the 911's rear engine design.

Kudos for going the track-car path with your Camaro!

BADCAM70

At the Ring cars with high power always has a tendency to make good times since the track promots high speeds and good acceletration.
As always when you use to much brakes you are not right and a good driver at the Ring dont need that much brakes so there a 3rd gen dont have a problem if you have made some laps.
It is very risky to run at the Ring and many accidents do occure with a deadly outcome,also if you go off not much of a zone before you hit the amcos and you will have to pay a penalty by the meter and also the time that they must close the track for cleening up your mess,cameras in cars are not allowed as they think it will promote reckless driving.
Also many "Ringrunners" fly down there and hire some cars and do plenty of laps before going down there with there own racecar to be prepared.
Also playing Xbox games with the Ring is good to learn the track but the one thing you miss is the huge elevation changes which is hard to depict in videogames but its a good tool non the less.

R4][N_M4l{3R

I would be careful to encourage using videogames as a driving tool. They can manifest bad driving habits much more likely than good.

otherwise, good discussion. Every time I see the track it seems crowded and not very well organized. Track events in the US are so different, its almost scary to me as a driver.

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

944 turbos are rated at 220hp and 2822lbs. later cars are 250hp i believe from my quick search.

that would be a good race for a L98 car with low options. most thirdgens may be rated at 230hp-240hp but its not uncommon for them to put down 215-220whp stock. plus the TPI has a lot more torque to get out of the corners with. even tho its a good 500lbs heavier, i think it would be a fairly close race, for awhile, especially the 220hp 944 version. It would be awesome to see how the L98 with a 5-6 speed would do with that porsche... the stock auto sucks power badly, and has poor ratios

R4][N_M4l{3R

The Turbo S made about 250hp. From the numbers standpoint its a close game, the difference really lies in balancing and suspension, and weight.

gta31

man i dunno my dads friend has a turbo s and i get him in the straights on the back roads but he kills me through the twistys and my dad has a mach 1 and he kills us both on the straights and is slower than both of us through the twist his mini s on the other hand seems to do better than all of them through the twistys i think its all about the driving when the cars are similiar

Rayvan

You *may* get a 217 hp pre-'89 Turbo-S in the straights, but the '89 version had 247hp. Those cars were *very* fast.

After '89 the 944 lost some horsepower. Porsche went with a three litre non-turbo 208hp four. It also gained a bunch of weight and ended up close to what an f-body weighed at the time.

R4][N_M4l{3R

The S2 was different from a turbo, which it replaced in the US in 89.

Ray is right, if you are stock I don't think you can pull on a Turbo S. Maybe a regular turbo..

rx7speed

the comment about the 911 being to back heavy I can understand at some points but doesn't it still have it's place if you know how to use it? that weight is more centered towords the rotation center line giving it quicker turn in ability and a little bit higher of an instatanious g rating that it can perform compared to a 50/50 car correct? my biggest gripe with that setup though is how totally unforgiving it seems to be. once that back end loses it's grip and the rotation centers around the front wheels rather then the rear it has a whole lot of momentum to keep it going into a good spin.

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

is that the same deal with the Carerra GT? its the one of the if not the fastest production car around the 'ring but i heard its hard to drive. you really need to be in control of it to get the best out of it.

R4][N_M4l{3R

Exactly, as you both put it the 911 is still an excellent car, its just harder to drive and less forgiving. If anything my point is that the 944/951 is easier to drive.

80smetalfan

Nobody has responded to oldtimer's post.

rx7speed

low 60's on a slolam is horrible. at least as far as with the benchmark we use to measure transient responce on a vehicle that is not good at all. a lot of that can be shown on the weight distro of the car. it's nose heavy car. tink of what happens when you put all the milk in the front of the shopping cart and turn it and now put it all in the back.

The 928 isn't their handler. it is more of a GT style car made for cruising at high speeds in comfort not sitting there running the twisties at least compared to the other cars made and designed by porsche

as far as the rx7 not sure of how well the 82 does as that is really before my year of car. all I know for sure is live axle 1.2L 4bbl carb and you need to pay attention or you can kiss the **** end of that car since they are a tad tail happy. with the 86 and up the as far as "benchmarks" go skidpad was just a tad behind a thirdgen but slolam was up there around the 65-67mph range. weak spot on them though is factory designed them with oversteer as a "saftey feature"

the 280z never been much of a fan of any year so can't offer any insight there

R4][N_M4l{3R

The Zs are not wonderful either, 240Z is an excellent track platform though. And rx7 is right, the 928 is highway muscle.

InfernalVortex

iTrader: (4)

How the hell is oversteer a safety feature? I always figured most cars would come factory designed with boatloads of understeer to keep people otu of trouble?

rx7speed

that was a mistype. it is understeer the car has for safety.

joecautela

iTrader: (1)

real interesting this conversation. I thnk the comparison between Porsche, RX and Camaro of the 80's is almost like beating a dead horse. And my reasons are that they're completely different animals. Each car having been designed for a different type of use and driver at the time. I do believe though that a properly prepared suspension and added horses transforms the camaro to a true road racer. The Porche technology straight out of the factory guarunteed better handling from the get-go. Then they went "S" and turbo and put it into another realm altogether. But I think setup is crucial. Of course what works on a short course is no good on long. An autocrosser will die on a road track and then there's the drag car doing what it does best. After years of running Alfa Romeo GT'S on Long and short tracks, 160hp,2100lb I can tell you that when a '69 302 Penske comes down the track the 911's and 944's slide over. And a 355 70-1/2 Camaro will chew on 5 litre 12 cylinder Ferraris. Just come up to Limerock and ck it out. It's in set-up, desired results, available $$ and the driving skill to lay it down, keep it off the grass and not break anything doing it. Just my 2 cents worth. I'm in the middle of transforming my '88 Iroc into an even better road car than it is, but If I had the bucks it would be a Z-06 for me, Joe

Dr G

Well both RMK and I are thirdgenners based in the UK and have talked about doing a joint trip this year or next. We'll be sure to inform you guys when we do, and yes, we'll take some nice pics!

88 350 tpi formula

iTrader: (9)

I would have to disagree with your "opinion" on the 4th gen vs thirdgen. in hp and brakes the 4th gen has the common factory thirdgen hands down (not even close) but the 4th gen has so much wiggle and lean it's nuts. the thirdgen just stays so flat that it gives little warning till the rear brakes loose. infact I know several people who went back to the thirgens because they had more control when racing.

Kingtal0n

One word:
NUR

http://chrisnz.com/nissan-r34-gtr-mspec-nur/




"This spec of GTR the R34 V Spec II NUR, held the fastest lap time for a production car at the famous Nurburgring track in germany. Hence the spec is NUR for Nurburgring. Many Japanese car haters won’t wont to hear that fact!"

Sorry. How did they do in the 80's?

S!MON

Have fun:

http://www.track-challenge.com/main_e.asp

Greetings,

Simon


Btw. I was on the Nürburgring this weekend. There was an endurance race and also a demo from BMW where Nick Heidfeld drove his actual Formula 1 car over the Ring (first time F1 on the ring since the horror crash from Nicki Lauda 31 years ago). Just amazing :

http://youtube.com/watch?v=Ek1JUfd3R8w

racereno

Wow, you guy's must have really bored R4][N_M4l{3R, no posts in awhile. But, to tell you the truth, I was wondering why someone with such a superior Porsche' and road-racing skill would stick so much money in a clearly inferior ThirdGen (look at SIG), or even grace us with their wisdom on a dumb American car forum.

R4][N_M4l{3R

I wish you wouldn't insult me, I don't feel i've done anything to deserve it, and I would rather spend my time here on intelligent discussion than defending myself from flames...

I haven't posted in awhile because the Grand American Road Racing season is in full swing and I have been on the road for the past few weeks. I haven't stuck alot of money into my third gen, I don't consider this forum dumb, and i'm rather attached to my Z28 because it was my first car, I love it and i've had a ton of fun in it.

I don't claim to be superior because I own a Porsche, and all my road racing knowledge comes from doing actual setup on successful, race-winning competiton BMWs.

I can't tell if you are accusing me of lying or just running your mouth, but everything I have ever claimed here is true, and more importantly derived from experence. Not speculation, decades old magazine arcticles (or worse, GT4).

Joe has a good point about setup, but it just goes down the already heavily treaded road of "you can make anything a race car with enough money and modifications"...

rx7speed

ok this is what I get tired of. why is it that if someone thinks one car is better then a damn thirdgen that all of a sudden that person shouldn't have, own, like, or enjoy have anything to do with a thirdgen.
This happens a lot when someone comes here saying something about the thirdgen that doesn't make it seem like the thirdgen is the gift of god. Live with it guys the thirdgen is not the greatest car ever, never was, and never will be. Now see this will be thought as me saying the thirdgen sucks but did I say that? not really, but some people out there can't make that difference. just because the car isn't the best doesnt mean the car sucks and is inferior and is a waste of time.
come on people. those who act like that remind me of the little r1cers out there that think there car is the greatest and act just the same. live with reality and learn to actually understand what people are saying.

and I'm sorry this wasn't directed fully at you as I have seen it and get it quite often where if anyone says something better about another car then they get bashed on for being realistic rather then pumping up the gods greatest car attitude. and it seems like doing this action means that they should be banned from owning or enjoying thirdgens in anyway when it shouldn't.

but hey for those of you with that attitude I guess if it makes you feel better your car can kick anythings ***. yeah know they can out handle f1 cars, travel faster then the space shuttle, have better build quality then anything else out there, accelerate quicker then a funny car, last forever without even having to so look at the engine bay, brake better then an F1 car also. thas just for the stock 2.8L thirdgen also, and lets not even bring up the v8 of any style for speed as there just isn't anything to compare to since it would break all known physics out there with how fast it is. I mean heaven forbid I say anything not being any of these things that would just be.... gasp.... honest. and yeah guys also an air filter will let you compete with jupiter for how fast your can moves, and if nothing else just by having a thirdgen sticker on your car it adds 5000hp. maybe I should add one to my car.

InfernalVortex

iTrader: (4)

But wheres the line between a good platform and a bad platform? Where does the law of diminishing returns come in for given platforms?

This is the kind of thing that really fascinates me. I love racing but you dont see your typical tricked out street car properly racing very often. Props to the forms of racing that realy are basically tricked out street cars! Always fun to watch.

joecautela

iTrader: (1)

- just a couple observations
- If GM had put the r&d and the hardware in at the factory the camaro would've blown the doors off everything right out of the box. It also would've cost as much as a Porsche. That obviously wasn't their mission.
- As said before, anyone can build their car to go better, handle and stop like a true racer...but..seat time is where it's at. I've seen far better racers in slower cars trash better cars on the track simply thru knowledge and experience
- As for the power argument well my Dads (76yrs old) new Saab 9/5 2.3 Turbo lays down 260hp right off the dealer floor. So the stock thirdgen will be hard pressed running against a lot of the new offerings. That's what keeps us gearheads searching for more power! Like Tim Allen, hu hu hu, MORE POWER! btw don't forget the brakes..keepin the faith, Joe btw someday I'm getting that ZO-6!

pascal_91ta

i was there last week













Acctually the WS6 suspansion is very good. The cars handles VERY well.

But at the end of the Track the Engine doesnt pull any more (TBI L03 305)or very slow @70mph.

Its a blast to drive there.