Discussion about the 69 charger in FF that lifts the front off the ground and spins its tires...

Some lame ***** on another msgboard:
"Sorry, they don't - look closer.
It is a matter of physics:

If you are spinning your tires, it is because you are making more power than the tires can provide traction for. Once you begin spinning the tires, for all intents and purposes you will remain stationary as the tires spin, with no real traction being applied to the ground. Well, you will move foreward a bit, but so little traction is being applied you won't accellerate much. A very slow way to launch, for sure.
And if spinning the tires doesn't provide enough traction to even efficiently accellerate, it certainly won't provide enough traction to lift a 4000+ pound car off the ground...
Ironically, traction is why pro drag racers do burnouts first, actually. They want to heat their tires up, so they are stickier, so that they can launch as hard as possible, with no tire spin. And during the pre-staging burnout, you don't see the front of the car's coming off the ground, do you? No, not in any class of drag racing.

Those pro drag cars have huge, wide tires that can apply all that power to the ground. They have so much traction that the front of the car can actually be lifted off of the ground. Pro-street cars too. But the wheelie happens with a very good launch, with no tires spin.
Sorry, OEJ. If it were possible to get the car into a wheelstand first, then begin spinning the wheels, the front end of the car would drop back down to the ground simply from the lack of traction. The leverage required to do a wheelie is poor enough based on the diameter of the rear tires, making one difficult without monster sized tires. Take the advantage (traction) of the monster meats away, and no wheelie.

Physics, OEJ. Something you are in denial of constantly, Mr." MyOverweightFirebirdCanHandleAndStopBetterThanAnyL
ightweightImport". At 16, you have a lot to learn, you are a newbie! You should definitely be listening, not speaking...

I know you like formulas:
Huge Traction + Huge Power = Wheelie (maybe)
Too Little Traction + Huge Power = Wheelspin
Take your pick...
-Chris E"

My reply to the *****:
"Impossible? So that stuff on ESPN is fake too? Oh I get it, smoke and mirrors! YEAH thats gotta be it. When they drag race they get their front off the ground and continue spinning hte tires. Okay dude you are just plain dumb, and you're a wannabe-miser-know-it-all. Why the hell do drag cars have the wheelie bars on the back to prevent them from flipping over? And why do they get off the ground like that? And how do their back tires continue to spin even while they're moving?

Its a matter of traction, yes. All their traction is at the starting point. As the car continues to accellerate the weight is driven backwards, as inertia takes its effect. This causes the car's front end to rise up. As the tires begin to spin faster and faster, the traction begins to slip. Therefore, the tires spin while the car is in the air. Lets go ask some real car guys (real as in musclecar) and see what they say.

You're just trying to make me look bad with your made up knowledge and stats. You're just mad because your little FWD car cant do anything that cool. :P"

And people call ME ignorant


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1992 Pontiac Firebird (stock)
- 305ci V8 TBI / Automatic Trans / Every option, excluding leather
- Killer car audio system:

• Aiwa CDC-MP3 head unit
• Rockford Fosgate 360a2 amp
• pair of 12" MTX Thunder 5000s in a custom box
• Pioneer 3-way 6x9s, soon to add more more more!

 

I think hes pissed because his ***** can't even do a squeak in first gear on wet grass

 

It is hard to lift your front end when you have front wheel drive even if you have 796hp of staight up Nitrous

 

HAHA so true

 

I don’t know I might have to agree with one of those stupid ricers on if you are peeling your tires you are not going to get your front end off the ground and if you start peeling your tires when you are up in the air you are going to fall back down rather fast due to loss of traction. Yes in drag racing the front wheels do come off the ground on a good launch but only about a foot off ,the ***** bars stop it from flipping itself because the best launch Is when you accelerate and the front and the back is parallel to the ground, that is why lots of people cars rears are taller than the front of the car so when the accelerate the front lifts off and becomes parallel to the ground all and all i guess you could do that but that would be concidered a really bad start and you could get much better resaults if you did not spin your tires. The fatf is all crap I the charger has a fake super charger and I heard that in the movie if you look at the super charger the belt is not even hooked up,and the ***** was due to hydros and a wille like that is undisired in drag raceing unless it is for show and I my friend saw a making of the movie on TV and said that the supra had something like 650 hp

 

Actually, all it really takes is to move the engine/tranny more toward the firewall, and squirt bleach on the tires while they're spinning to make all that white smoke. That would definately do it. But you'd have to have wheelie bars. Don't think that it's real just because it's in the movies. The first time I saw that, I said to my buddy "Wouldn't it be cool if a car could really do that?"

I mean, come on. That would take a perfect balancing act to pull that off without wheelie bars. And from the .5 second glance the commercial gives, I didn't see any wheelie bars on that Dodge. Unless they let the thing bottom out on the bumper.

Ever try doing a wheelie on a bicycle. (Who hasn't?) There's that VERY fine line of balance that you have to keep, otherwise you end up on two wheels again, or worse, on your back. No doubt that there was some kinda special effects done. With computers anymore, anything is possible in the movies.

If it is real, I am very impressed. Again, that's IF it's real.

 

The Charger popping a wheelie wasn't real. I saw a special on the movie on HBO I think and it showed how they did it. They had two hydraulic arms come out from underneath and pick up the front of the car and they fold back under the car for the race scene.

If you look for it, the shot of the Charger's undercarriage is blocked by the Supra, and the beginning of the race is from the back so you cant see the lifter arms either.

-Max

 

I KNOW the movie isnt real. Is that the question I asked? No. Why don't you guys read instead of going off topic? Sorry, I'm sick of rice. I've got Uncle Ben disease. It's terminal.

Yeah I asked my dad and he said he saw it all the time at the drag strip. This is before wheelie bars! They'd get up on the back wheels and the tires would still spin causing smoke. I trust my dad over any riceboys.

My dad called me racist for saying riceboy. WTF he doesnt get it.

 

It's entirely possible to perform a wheelie with the tires spinning. The amount of traction lost is very dependant on just how bad they are spinning. I've never been in a car with close to enough power to perform such an act, but I am also an avid motorcyclist who owns a moderately built up 98 ZX9R. One of my favorite show off acts is to get the rear tire smoking at a stop, then release the front brake and take off with the rear still spinning. If I keep on the gas, the front end WILL pull up into a wheelie and run a good 20-50 feet on the rear wheel while it's still spinning. I've also found that if I take off with the speedo reading higher then about 30mph while stopped, I have trouble with the rear fishtailing due to the limited traction. Just another bit of info that proves the amount of traction is dependant on just how bad the tires are spinning. A little spin does not cause a significant amount of traction loss.

 

So are all ricers dumb? I talked to some other guy on the same forum and he said his Civic EX (?) with exhaust and intake does 14.9 in the quarter mile and 0-60 in 6 seconds flat. I believe thats a big lie.

 

Hey!! I never said it wasn't possible. Read my reply again. It would just take a very talented driver, and a very powerful (and balanced) car. Ask your dad if the cars he saw do it touched rear bumpers on the track. I'll bet they did. Why do you think they thought of wheelie bars? That's a dangerous trick. Possible, but dangerous.

Just from you telling your dad's story, I am impressed. I would love to see that. GRUNT, GRUNT. MORE POWER!!!!! HEHE!!!

EDIT: BTW, Same to the guy on his Ninja. All I can say is that you've got *****. That would be cool to see. You are talented, no doubt.

[This message has been edited by AJ_92RS (edited June 26, 2001).]

 

Anyone around or remember the Hurst Chrysler Hemi Under Glass? They took a Plymouth Barracuda and installed the hemi in the back under the huge back window. The car would pull the front wheels and drag the rear bumper down the quarter mile in 9.9x to 10.0x seconds. Has anyone seen the flowmaste poster with the red Chevelle doing a wheel stand with pretty nice new flowmaster exhaust.

In a high horse power car this is what happens. When they hit it off the line and get good traction the front tires will lift. Usually the passenger side first. If the car rocks all the way back on the wheelie bars one of two things will happen. Either the car will pick up additional traction from the entire weight of the car sitting on the rear tires and wheelie bars, or if it hits the wheelie bars hard, the tires will lose traction. Inertia will be lifting the front of the car and when the wheelie bars hit the inertia may continue to pick the car up onto only the wheelie bars for a split second. That s why wheelie bars come with adjustable springs on them. It is a strange feeling when you are in a car that pulls the front wheels.

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'87 Silverado
350 4 bolt main bore .040 over
TB Injected
Ported and Polished heads
Comp cams 268h cam and top end
Flowtech headers
3.73s on Detroit locker

 

OH yeah the flowmaster picture, Ive seen that one

 

I remember that! It was a long time ago. Must've been the '60s. Of course I don't remember much else about the '60s

 

What about the Hurst Olds, "Harry"? Two 455 cid Olds motors, each driving two wheels. It would smoke all the way down the track , if it stayed straight! It pretty much went where it wanted, and the only control the driver had was throttle.

 

I N V U. That would be SO COOL!!! By the way, "I HATE YOU!" for telling me that. I now live a sadder life. HEHE!!!!!

Thanks for sharing the info. YOU F-ucky L-ucker

AJ

 

AJ_92RS, it's actually not as difficult as people seem to think it is. The toughest part is actually taking off with the wheels spinning. That's where you have the least traction, and the greatest amount of fishtailing. Once I get to the point where the front end is coming up, I've got more then enough traction to keep the bike stable, and it won't pull the front end up until I have that traction. It's also not an act I can pull off 100% of the time. I'd say 4 out of 5 times the tire stops spinning before it pulls up, but I'm getting more consistent with it. It's damn expensive on the rear tire though. I go through 2-3 tires a year, and at 170 bucks a pop, that's a few potential mods, to either the car or the bike, but it's fun, and also not as dangerous as it sounds. Like I said, the toughest part is the initial takeoff. Dumping it at 5-10mph would suck, but there no real risk of serious injury at those speeds. I've been riding dirt bikes, atvs, snowmobiles, and street bikes long enough to know how to crash, but that's getting off topic.

 

I skimmed through the message board and saw something about bikes, I just wanted to say I have seen allot of rice rockets do some nice wheelies and most of the time for about 50ft+ there tires were spinin,' just thought that might have been a little helpful info

 

Yes it is very possible. Our drag car pulls the front wheels and we have problems hooking up those 15 inch slicks! The street gives better traction than the track sometimes. However the car in the movie was a prop. If you noticed the car went up and down several times. This looked very strange to me being that I see this sort of thing all the time.

 

Oh boy.

I haven't seen the movie, but I can already tell you it was fake.

The way the car launched it looked like something pushed it UP from the front end, not like weight transfer, and then it settled on the rear tires and smoked them- NOT GONNA HAPPEN!

A bike is a TOTALLY different beast from a car.

Bike- 500#, rider can keep the weight transfered to the rear pretty easily

Car- 4,000#, driver has almost NO control over the weight transfer while the car is running.

Yeah, they could have set it up, but it's about 99.999999999% impossible, and not repeatable (retakes cost MAJOR $$$).

Also, anyone that's driven on a track (hell, just walk across the starting line!) knows that the traction on the street is less than 10% of that on the track (wheelies are pretty much out of the question).

As for multiple wheelies, I've got a video of my bud's SSO car running at Moroso last fall and its SICK! He hit the bars so hard it ripped the brackets off the housing (we've since reinforced them with 1" solid bar stock).

If anyone is interested in the vid let me know (warning, it IS 14megs).

 

Let me first start by saying YOU ARE A MORON.
Did I ask if the movie was real or fake? NO
Did I already acknowledge the movie was fake? YES
Why am I being grumpy like this? BECUASE YOU NEED TO LEARN HOW TO OPERATE THE FUNCTIONS ON YOUR COMPUTER MACHINE MORE BETTER.

Start of accelleration: traction is put to the tires and lifts front end up.
Traction begins to slip: The wheels stay up because of balance and aerodynamics, and the tires are spinning faster and faster (like on a wet road you suddenly lose traction).
End of wheelie: the front dips back down - or - you regain traction and wheels hook up.

THATS MY TWO CENTS.

you seriosuly should read closer

 

If traction at the track is so good then why do they spray BHT all over it? When you run on the road your tires are touching asphalt or concrete. When you run at the track you run on a layer of rubber. This is why they scrape the track when they have big events. This is not worth thier trouble when you go there on grudge night.

There is also a big difference between a 500 lb ricecycle and a 3400 lb big block race car. I would not think a bike could make enough torque to burn one of those economy car tires anyway. The exception i have seen is a nitro Harley and a pro stock bike.

 

The old hemi powered super stock drag cars pulled the wheels regularly. They weren't allowed to make enough changes to the chasis to prevent it ,or they would have, as it isn't the best thing for a good run. Can you pull a wheelie with your tires spinning like hell?, as in the F&F, i don't think so. But the movie is still cool.

 

sorry, but that ***** is totally right, the laws of physics prevent the wheel stand from happening in real life. First of all, it does a wheel stand, then with even more force pushing the wheels to the ground (read even harder to break traction) it begins to spin and stays in the air. First of all, if it were going to break traction, it would happen before the front end went up. Second of all, the instant the tires broke traction the front end would've slammed back down to the street. Weight transfer alone isn't the only reason for a wheel stand, its mostly the amount of torque being put to the ground that raises the front wheels. Torque is a rotational force, and when the rotational force is high enough and the tires still have traction, it rotates the car of the body over the rear axle. It's nearly impossible to have enough torque to be baking the tires and rotate the body on the rear axle. Don't get pissed at the ***** for bringing physics in to play, just because you don't understand them doesn't mean they're not right. His example of them burning out before staging is perfect. It is physically impossible to lift the front end of a car without 100% traction of the rear tires!

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1986 Z28 LG4 M5
Alpine 6x9's 2 10" MTX Thunder 4000's MTX Thunder 102 Amp Hooker Aero-Chamber Cat-Back

 

I cant believe there are people on this board that think that this is not possible! Just the other day I saw my buddy take his 4banger 98 ford ranger w/ traction bars and he cheeped his tires while his front end lifted off...however he did give it a harsh N drop, but you are probably going to say that a N drop is fake to right...

 

It is possible to spin the tires with 100% weight transfer. Not 100% traction. No vehicle spins the tires with 100% traction. When the front tires lift this means the vectors of the center of gravity and the point of thrust have crossed. I guess now your going to tell me a top feul dragster or funny car doesn't spin the tires all the way down the track. I know everything about hooking up a race car. That may sound blatend, but if I don't know I WILL find out. I have run ARCA, Pro Brackett and even SCCA. Succesfully.

 

Obviously you can't spin the tires w/ 100% traction, they're exact opposites... spinning the tires is a lack of traction, so if you have perfect traction, they won't be spinning. What I"m saying is its easy to spin the tires w/ the front wheels still on the ground because not all of the cars weight is on the rear wheels, but once the front wheels leave the ground, all of the weight of the car is on the rear wheels, making it nearly impossible to break traction with all that extra force on it, and if it did break traction the front end would hit the ground instantly. The point of this whole post is that what the Charger does in F&F is physically impossible to do w/out movie magic.

 

Yes, once again we all know the charger in the movie is a stunt. But the question was ; is it possible? Yes it is. This would however be not comon on any street car. The front end would have to be real light and the car would have to have killer torque. This is after all a theoretical subject. All of you should go and watch the NMCA or NSCA. They put on quite a show.

 

Physics is universal. There is no difference between the physics involved in accelerating a car or motorcycle in a straight line. What changes is the weight, horsepower requirements, and traction requirements to perform the same possible actions in either. Was it real in the movie? No. Can the charger in the movie do it? I don't know, probably not? Can a car set up properly do it? Most definitely.

One thing some people seem to be overlooking is the fact that the amount of traction lost while spinning the wheels is directly related to how fast those wheels are spinning. My bike does not require 100% rear traction to lift the front end. In fact, I'd say 50% of the traction I typically have is enough to lift the front end. That means I can be losing 40% of my traction to tire spin and still have enough traction to wheelie. Again, whether or not a car can do it isn't the question. The question is, what weight, traction, and power requirements would a car need to do it, and are there cars out there that meet those requirements? I would say there most definitely are.

 

why do dragsters have wheelie bars!?!

 

ok, maybe its possible to pull a wheelie and chirp your tires a little bit, but l know for a fact that you cannot smoke your tires and pull a wheelie at the same time, that ***** is absolutely right smoking the tires = no traction at all wheelies= almost 100% traction, you cannot mix the two

 

Two flaws there.

Smoking tires does not automatically = no traction at all.

Wheelies does not automatically = 100% traction.

You can mix the two. I've already covered the details of it.

 

I'm sorry but thats complete B/S no traction creates spin(except in wet/icey conditions). Have you ever heard of too much torque? if you release the clutch/hammer the thottle too fast the motor over powers the tires making them spin. You will also NOT hear the motor bog, as with the wheelie you will most deffinately hear it bog a little. Now if you have alot of weight over the drive wheels and good weight transfer the wheels will grab and the motor torque will most assuredly lift the car. Now it is IMPOSSIBLE FOR A FWD CAR TO DO THIS. So they spin... too much spin equals smoke...

 

exactly.