Yep....

DOHC engines worth anythign will always make more power per cubic inch than a pushrod engine.

There are a LOT of tradeoffs and compromises in both designs, though.

4.6 is the same family of modular motors. I dont know if the deck height (just read as engine height if you dont know what I mean by that) is the same as the 5.0, but I know the 5.4 truck engines had a taller deck height, hence why the new mustang has a 5.0 instead of a 5.4 probably, since the 5.0 is a physically shorter engine than the 5.4:


You can put 5.4's in Mustangs, but there are serious problems with hood clearance and intake options. Takes some careful workarounds... I think some of the Shelby's had 5.4s? But the regular GT's never got them for a reason.

Anyway, that's really beside the point, that's a 5 liter 302 next to a 4.6 liter Modular v8. The modular motors have MASSIVE cylinder heads full of camshafts. They take up a LOT of space. They raise the center of gravity. They dramatically increase the height of the engine. Allegedly GM, when designing the LS1 family of engines, decided to stay with pushrod designs because they wanted to make sure it would fit in a corvette. The ford modular motors certainly wouldn't. Also, multiple overhead cams increase brake specific fuel consumption.

So yeah, you get more horsepower per cubic inch(due to better volumetric efficiency), but there are drawbacks
Larger size
higher weight
higher center of gravity
worse gas mileage (generally)

A compact, lightweight pushrod engine is mainly limited in the sense that variable valve timing is out of the question (although some really trick ideas have come down the pipe from GM and Dodge to get around this, but it's not the norm for pushrod engines... yet) and due to that, and the limitations of all the hardware needed to transfer motion from the camshaft to the valve itself, you're limited to lower RPMs and a narrower power band. That on top of sacrifices in volumetric efficiency pretty much dictate that to get the same power as a given DOHC motor, you will need to increase the displacement. But the great advantage, as I've alluded to, is that pushrod engines are VERY compact and can be extremely lightweight. A 7 liter LS7 is still physically smaller and lighter in weight than even much smaller displacement dohc v8 engines. If you can cram an extra 2.5 liters into a smaller, lighter, package... why does hp/liter matter?

THe answer is because in a lot of countries there are taxes based on engine displacement. In a lot of high level racing there are regulations limiting engine displacement. Technology and engineering for the past 70 years of internal combustion engines has been, for the most part, centered around getting more power out of the same cubic inches, and in the last 30 years with emissions regulations, taxation, displacement limits in high level racing, etc, it has all lead to an arms race of getting as much hp as possible out of a limited displacement engine... And that's why hp/liter is a huge rally point for so many people, but for us it just doesn't matter. We are in the US where they havent gotten around to taxing us on how big our engines are yet, and they have better things to do that limit production car engine displacements to a given number. So... hp/liter means nothing unless you're racing in Formula 1 and you're limited to 2.4 liters.

 

I actually own a 2011 v6 and well also a l98 thirdgen . These cars are like the opposite of each other the v6 pulls pretty heavy on the top end but the torque is not there at all in these cars. And well the third is obiously a torque monster but top end just tends to die out. It is really hard to say which one will win im just gonna have to wait til i get my thirdgen running 100% and take both to the drag and put down some numbers

 

Has anyone seen the 13 Shelby Gt500? 5.8 litre , eaton SC, 650HP! Pretty wicked, I think the new ZL1 is gonna have a hard time w/ that..

 

heres the thing though, thats a shelby car, not a ford car, if were counting tuners what about the henessy camaro
http://www.conceptcarz.com/vehicle/d...18904&i=2#menu
and uhh does ford have a mustang like this?
http://www.conceptcarz.com/z19048/Ch...r-Concept.aspx
sorry if the first henessy is too much for ya, theres this one too
http://www.conceptcarz.com/vehicle/d...16996&i=2#menu
but there are so many high powered camaros
http://www.conceptcarz.com/z20667/Ch...E-Concept.aspx
http://www.conceptcarz.com/z19043/Ch...Red-Flash.aspx
http://www.conceptcarz.com/z19341/Li...amaro-LTA.aspx
http://www.conceptcarz.com/vehicle/z...7-Concept.aspx
http://www.conceptcarz.com/vehicle/z...r-Concept.aspx
http://www.conceptcarz.com/vehicle/z...k-Concept.aspx
http://www.conceptcarz.com/vehicle/z...r-Concept.aspx
http://www.conceptcarz.com/vehicle/z...a-Concept.aspx
http://www.conceptcarz.com/vehicle/z...k-Concept.aspx
http://www.conceptcarz.com/z19046/Ch...gy-Series.aspx
http://www.conceptcarz.com/z19779/Ge...rt-HP-564.aspx
http://www.conceptcarz.com/z21045/Ch...s-Concept.aspx
http://www.conceptcarz.com/z20781/Ch...n-Concept.aspx
http://www.conceptcarz.com/z20670/Ch...e-Concept.aspx
http://www.conceptcarz.com/z19707/Ch...y-Edition.aspx
http://www.conceptcarz.com/z18402/Hu...-Series-5.aspx
http://www.conceptcarz.com/vehicle/z...o-Concept.aspx
so many to choose from, and still no z28?

 

the 5th gens are pretty sweet in my opinion but i will never own one unless i am given one as for the 5.slow will never ever ever even drive one unless its to the crusher
i may have the 3rd gen bug and yes i know they are slow but i will be keeping my mint 87 stage 3 iroc g92 with split rear seats power antenna and every available option besides automatic and leather seats in dark metallic blue with 27k original miles as my father was the original owner and left it to me when he passed back in 04 i drive it about 500 miles a year and consider this car my retirement fund one day 50 years from now ......
anyone can argue about whats faster or heavier but nothing beats the look of a tru mint freshly detailed 3rd gen thats bone stock and never seen a body shop or paint job
on another note i have owned 7 3rd gens 2 2nd gens a 4th gen several g bodys most were beaters but i have recently gotten my hands on another blue 87 iroc almost identical to mine minus the fancy stuff like stage 3 interior and split rear seats this will be my turbo build car worked to its ***** !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! and i would bet any amount of money it will out run any modified v6 v8 5th gen or stang regardless if its a shelby or not remember the dodge shelbys what a joke !

 

oh well a thirdgen with H/C/I will run 12's all day. Faster than a 5th gen and most cars mentioned on this thread.

 

H/C/I ? sorry i am new here

 

Ford made the 5.8 for Shelby and you can go to any Ford dealer and buy one, I do not think we can do that w/ a 5th Gen concept car. It's Fords ananswer to the new ZL1. Check out Hotrod.com it's in this months issue...

 

Heads Cam Intake

 

What?

The Shelby GT500 is made by SVT, which is Ford, Shelby just has his name on it.

 

Agreed. More pride in building it than buying it!

 

I seen one that got sold at Barrett Jackson last week. Was one of the original test cars, sold for over $200k. That car was sweet.

 

whats concept? the racecar? at any rate the henessys got more power than the shelby

 

ehmm shelby american in las vegas makes the gt500s and all the shely cars actually http://www.shelbyautos.com/vehicles.asp , SVT makes the raptor though, pretty badass truck
http://www.conceptcarz.com/z20522/Fo...VT-Raptor.aspx

 

GT500s and other Mustangs are sent there for certain treatments, like the super snake, the GT500KR, GT350, etc.; They are not built there.

 

I agree with big hammer. Some of the early 2010's were horribly slow, and barely put down 300rwhp on dynos. One of the guys i know was running high 13's with his till he got a tune on it, then power jumped dramatically and the car dropped nearly a second off its otherwise stock 1/4 mile ET.

When I heard about his runs I was disappointed. My bolt-on LT1 swapped GTA was knocking down low 13's with a crap B-body stall, and the small B-body cam. Soon as he got a tune though his numbers changed drastically.

 

Recent road tests have proven otherwise. Stock for Stock a new Camaro despite its weight advantage still handles better than a thirdgen. Skid pad numbers might go to the thirdgen but in the realm of weight transfer the suspension on the new Camaro just plain works better.

A 4dr CTS-V could destroy a thirdgen on a Road Course and the V is at least 600lbs heavier.

I love my car, thats why I haven't sold it. But like the song, "The times they are a changin'" Technology is moving on, and our cars are being left behind by better suspension geometry, and grippier tires. The tires are an easy fix. Replacing all of the bendy stamped steel suspension parts helps too.

You can either choose to invest in your old car with new technology or leave the platform behind.

 

wow all the posts on here remind me of when I bought my 02ss. All I heard there not that fast,I can beat it, my car is stock or mines to fast to wast my time. I lost some and won a lot all in fun. I love my third gens I would never give them up but heads cam tune I'm low 11s same for 3rd 14s plus intake. Now its happening to the 5th gen and its to bad. I love the looks it is fast for stock and fully loaded. If you don't like the looks so be it but you can't compare or beat down a car because its not a fast as you moded one it is still a camaro and still faster then mustang and zl1 even faster. If you lighty mod that 5th gen it could beat some of you. I also got the same beat down when I bought my 91 rs in 96 only I lost every race because they are so so so slow!!!! But I still have it today. My point is camaro owners should stick together no matter what gen they own. Because those mustang guys do

 

well camaros are built by chevrolet and sent to henessy for modifications and its got +700hp, and thats more than the gt500

 

I hope they make the copo Camaro.

 

Not worried about an LS-3 in a land barge....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kfLWpAy0c1o

 

I understand what you are saying, but when you compare apples to apples (16" stock vs the 20" on the 5th gen), it makes sense. But a fully upgraded 3rd gen (or 4th gen) is going to destroy a 5th gen (all done) in both skidpad and slalom tests - that extra weight and CoG of the new car is too much for the suspension to overcome. CTS-V is the same deal, just that it has a big HP motor and is probably a better handler than an SS.

But you are right - the stock suspension in the 3rd gen is not going to cut it in this day of compliant great geometry suspensions with big tires with a good ride and less manhandling. Of course you will be hauling around a lot less mass in a third gen than just about anything with a V8 these days (Corvette is the only exception) and taking out more weight is relatively easy - go try that with new rides.

Technology is great - there are a lot of 1st and early 2nd gens that run modern parts and handle with the best.

 

GM has shown that a good suspension can overcome weight. the zl1 out performs the boss 302 on the track.

 

I would hope the ZL1 outperforms the Boss - it has 140hp more!!!

Seriously, you can't say GM has shown anything with the Camaro except they turned the new Camaro into a heavyweight car with a terrible aerodynamic profile with limited visibility. If they made it 400lbs lighter, it would be a faster, better handling car - but they build only porkers now...

 

not only does the zl1 outperform the boss in the straights, it was also faster in the corners on laguna seca.

 

I think alot of that is due to the Magneto-rheological shocks. These things bar none are probably the BEST improvement GM could have made to increase both ride comfort and handling.

I'm sure the system could be adapted/created for a thirdgen. I just don't want to guess on the cost and complexity of such a system.

 

If you call a Corvette ZR1 a porker, you would have to have a moped for a vehicle to be called lightweight.

 

yup. a fantastic improvement. that technology has made gm's some of the best handling cars in the world.

i took a cts-v wagon for a test drive... what a car!

 

Nope. Corvette is the only car of ability that GM makes that isn't overweight. I find it highly disappointing that GM made the 5th gen several hundred pounds heavier than the previous generation while Nissan can make their 370Z lighter than the 350Z.

 

Which is still pretty heavy for how small the car is.

 

No, the Corvette is pretty much spot on for its size. Remember, its an aluminum space frame, not a carbon fibre frame. It uses carbon fiber to reduce weight, but its not entirely made from Carbon Fiber like some of the other supercars it goes against.

 

I was referring to the 370z. 3200lbs is pretty heavy for something so small.

 

Physically its similar in size to the Corvette. Its not exactly a "small" car. its still a 2+2.

 

I would love to get my hands on a 5th gen SS. I would get it home, tear it apart, and figure out how to get it's drivetrain working in on of my gen 3's.

I think they are a killer car, but ugly as ****. IMHO they look like the anime offspring of a 2011 mustang and a 2010 Challenger. How Chevy got that pair to mate in captivity is a mystery to me... too much alchohol in the fuel I guess.

Serious. Why did Chevy have to jump on the retro bandwagon when they could have made the gen 5 a beautiful and unique automobile?

 

Not to mention it's weight makes at least partly up for the HP difference.

 

Because GM was too busy giving Pontiac the Axe instead of Buick or GMC. ( Seriously, wtf is the point of GMC? They are Chevy's with a different Grill and nameplate )
And whens the last time you saw someone under the age of 104 driving a Buick?

 

i know, can you imagine how much a new firebird/trans am would sell?

 

It wouldn't. The Firebirds have always sold less than the Camaros. The Pontiacs have always been more expensive, and guess what. Heavier too.

The 5th gen is barely selling in quantities approaching 3rd gen sales, let alone 2nd gen sales figures. Yeah, people WANT it. But they aren't BUYING it.

As a brand Pontiac has been failing for a long time. GM finally axed it because honestly aside from the Solstice they didn't have anything truly exiting and weren't trying. The G6 GTP should have been a beast either with the LS4 transverse v8, or with a supercharged version of the 3.5L engine. Or even the Turbocharged 260hp LNF ecotec motor.

The reason Pontiac isn't around was because they weren't selling well anymore.

 

The new camaro's drive train is so much better. But it is ugly and government heavy. Put it's ls3 drivetrain in a 89 GTA and you would have a monster.

 

They weren't selling because when it comes down to it, they are more expensive Chevrolet's. Add that to a time where people pretty much weren't buying new cars. The average person couldn't afford a new Pontiac.

The re-introduction GTO ( while I and many others like it ) was a complete flop and the G8 was too expensive for what it was. ( Over 35k for the GXP model ) The G6 was meh and the Solstice didn't have performance like it should have.

Then ( What I think was the big seller for Pontiac anyway ) the Firebird was discontinued due to GM throwing F-bodies under the bus to get more Vette sales, there was no real reason to buy a Pontiac over a Chevy unless you were a hardcore Pontiac fan.

I'm willing to bet that a new Trans Am themed after the Smokey and the Bandit T/A ( Not on the Zeta body, its too big IMO )would outsell the new Camaro. ( assuming it wasn't too much more money )

But GM axed them instead of bringing the Firebird back alongside the Camaro and ditching Chevy's twin sister GMC brand. There is really NO point to that brand. Or Buick...whens the last time you saw someone driving a Buick who looked like they didn't need to be on life support?

Theres a reason behind that though, its got a very high safety rating and is one hell of a stable car. Its a much higher build quality and far more advanced. With those advancements comes weight.

Also, even though it weighs as much as it does, suspension tech has gotten loads better compared to 3rd or even 4th gens. It will haul its pig *** around a corner better than our cars will despite the increased weight and less aerodynamic body.

 

i still think the masses of people who want a camaro because bumblebee is cool, are the majority of people buying new camaros and i think even more people would buy a new trans am/firebird

 

They are but only to certain people, it's an extremely low production number and can't be registered in any state(basically a race car but I'll find to find the info again, I forget it all)...I'll have to find the email I got from my GM rep.

Buick is appealing to the younger crowd now but their overseas sales are huge...they're a big hit in China and in Eastern Europe and have been for a while now. That is what saved them. Pontiac has/had no place in the new GM lineup, we don't need re-badged Chevy's. That's solely GM's fault. They did good with the GTO and G8 but too little too late. They deserved the axe. Meanwhile, Buick's sales are through the roof overseas and even here. Their redesign has been a big hit, especially with the Regal. It's all about $$$, not nostalgia, not what a small group of enthusiasts(us) want or think should happen.

 

And what about GMC?

 

Not sure about GMC, I don't know they're sales figures but I do know there's a big group of people that will only buy GMC, you can line up the same Chevy truck/SUV next to the GMC version and they'll pass on the Chevy, I don't quite get it.

 

GMC's look different now from Chevy. A big difference. The old days it was just a grill change but now there isn't a body panel that is the same. GMC is/always was the truck brand. They should drop Chevy trucks and stick with GMC.

 

i would buy one. so that's one for sure.

 

im not a big fan of the new camaros, but i do give credit where its due, i just wouldnt buy one. i have rode in an ss and i was not impressed nothin better than the torgue throwing you in the seat and the sound of free flowing exhaust screaming through the rpms. my dream car is actually a 2002 camaro ss 35th aniversary edition 6 speed drop top i love that car.

 

And a 5th gen SS would womp on that 2002 SS. Just because it "feels" slower doesn't mean it is.

The very first ride in a LS1 car I had didn't feel fast. It was a LS1 swap into a 89 TransAm, gutted and all. Barely weighed anything and the car was going low 12's on a stock LS1. The car certainly didn't feel fast at all. But it was fast. A 6spd LT1 felt faster but in reality was about 1 second slower ET on average and about 6mph slower trap speeds.

The butt dyno is the most inaccurate dyno ever to exist.

 

most ls1 fbodies and 5th gen camaros are very close. in fact i would give the nod to an m6 ls1 over an a6 camaro.

 

IMO....
Swap all the new Camaro and new challenger parts over. The challenger looks more like the old Camaro vice versa. I think these guys got their drawings mixed up.