400lbs torque to a T-5
Supreme Member
iTrader: (1)
Joined: Jul 1999
Posts: 2,260
Likes: 0
Car: 87 Camaro
Engine: Chevy V8
Transmission: auto
I cant shift faster than an auto BUT I like the ability to choose what RPM to shift hence the TransGo semi manual valve body..depends on the condition..I still say both are good depending on the combination except the T-5 is weaker..
Daz
Daz
Supreme Member
Joined: May 2002
Posts: 1,919
Likes: 0
From: Brampton, Ontario
I was just simplifying design, the stator and the lockup are integral parts, but when it comes down to it, that's the basic concept transferring energy via a medium.
Jay, I never said the tc makes more torque, I was being sarcastic dammit.
Daz, how's my getting info from a book, person or anything different than you getting it from the net? Either way, I got to talking to someone this morning on the matter since putting in my tcc lockup solenoid I've had a weird buzz from my tranny.
Here's what I gather from off the site, talking to a transmission expert since actually this morning I had a weird sound from being at idle stop from my tranny...
Multiplication occurs but not at some insane rate as to create power. As you get close to stall speed (it states this on the site as well) torque multiplication goes down to 1. Prior to that, any torque gain is used on the planetary gears and bands to actually end up with a loss of torque by transmissions output to driveshaft. How else do you end up with gear selection? When all is said and done, by the time the torque gets to be used by the driveshaft its far less than what it started at. He gathered around 15-20% loss from the transmission alone.
I'm actually seeing how this works (I was shown a cutout and a book with equations as to how the damn thing gives multiplication), below stall the impeller is turning like 2500 RPM, your stall is 3000 and your torque at 2500 is like for simplicity use 250 ft/lb. Since you're not at 1:1 ratio, the turbine is turning far less than the engine say only 2000 RPM. In this scenario, you're getting a 1.25 multiplication if at 2000 RPM. Per 2000 RPM of the turbine, you're getting 2500 rpm's worth of torque... there's the multiplication. Unfortunately, you're still only turning the turbine at 2000 rpm, albeit with more torque... actually using 2500rpm's worth but in terms of efficiency, its just not there. This is why milage goes to hell if you lose your lockup...
Those of us blessed with lockup get to take back some loss in the tc after stall speed via the lockup which is for all intents and purposes the closest we'll see to a stick's clutch without dumping a clutch in.
I'm leaving the auto vs stick tranny fight down to personal preference. Daz, let's leave the tc alone lol, Jay's link has it all.
Jay, I never said the tc makes more torque, I was being sarcastic dammit.
Daz, how's my getting info from a book, person or anything different than you getting it from the net? Either way, I got to talking to someone this morning on the matter since putting in my tcc lockup solenoid I've had a weird buzz from my tranny.
Here's what I gather from off the site, talking to a transmission expert since actually this morning I had a weird sound from being at idle stop from my tranny...
Multiplication occurs but not at some insane rate as to create power. As you get close to stall speed (it states this on the site as well) torque multiplication goes down to 1. Prior to that, any torque gain is used on the planetary gears and bands to actually end up with a loss of torque by transmissions output to driveshaft. How else do you end up with gear selection? When all is said and done, by the time the torque gets to be used by the driveshaft its far less than what it started at. He gathered around 15-20% loss from the transmission alone.
I'm actually seeing how this works (I was shown a cutout and a book with equations as to how the damn thing gives multiplication), below stall the impeller is turning like 2500 RPM, your stall is 3000 and your torque at 2500 is like for simplicity use 250 ft/lb. Since you're not at 1:1 ratio, the turbine is turning far less than the engine say only 2000 RPM. In this scenario, you're getting a 1.25 multiplication if at 2000 RPM. Per 2000 RPM of the turbine, you're getting 2500 rpm's worth of torque... there's the multiplication. Unfortunately, you're still only turning the turbine at 2000 rpm, albeit with more torque... actually using 2500rpm's worth but in terms of efficiency, its just not there. This is why milage goes to hell if you lose your lockup...
Those of us blessed with lockup get to take back some loss in the tc after stall speed via the lockup which is for all intents and purposes the closest we'll see to a stick's clutch without dumping a clutch in.
I'm leaving the auto vs stick tranny fight down to personal preference. Daz, let's leave the tc alone lol, Jay's link has it all.
Supreme Member
iTrader: (1)
Joined: Jul 1999
Posts: 2,260
Likes: 0
Car: 87 Camaro
Engine: Chevy V8
Transmission: auto
Originally posted by Slade1
I was just simplifying design, the stator and the lockup are integral parts, but when it comes down to it, that's the basic concept transferring energy via a medium.
Jay, I never said the tc makes more torque, I was being sarcastic dammit.
Daz, how's my getting info from a book, person or anything different than you getting it from the net? Either way, I got to talking to someone this morning on the matter since putting in my tcc lockup solenoid I've had a weird buzz from my tranny.
Here's what I gather from off the site, talking to a transmission expert since actually this morning I had a weird sound from being at idle stop from my tranny...
Multiplication occurs but not at some insane rate as to create power. As you get close to stall speed (it states this on the site as well) torque multiplication goes down to 1. Prior to that, any torque gain is used on the planetary gears and bands to actually end up with a loss of torque by transmissions output to driveshaft. How else do you end up with gear selection? When all is said and done, by the time the torque gets to be used by the driveshaft its far less than what it started at. He gathered around 15-20% loss from the transmission alone.
I'm actually seeing how this works (I was shown a cutout and a book with equations as to how the damn thing gives multiplication), below stall the impeller is turning like 2500 RPM, your stall is 3000 and your torque at 2500 is like for simplicity use 250 ft/lb. Since you're not at 1:1 ratio, the turbine is turning far less than the engine say only 2000 RPM. In this scenario, you're getting a 1.25 multiplication if at 2000 RPM. Per 2000 RPM of the turbine, you're getting 2500 rpm's worth of torque... there's the multiplication. Unfortunately, you're still only turning the turbine at 2000 rpm, albeit with more torque... actually using 2500rpm's worth but in terms of efficiency, its just not there. This is why milage goes to hell if you lose your lockup...
Those of us blessed with lockup get to take back some loss in the tc after stall speed via the lockup which is for all intents and purposes the closest we'll see to a stick's clutch without dumping a clutch in.
I'm leaving the auto vs stick tranny fight down to personal preference. Daz, let's leave the tc alone lol, Jay's link has it all.
I was just simplifying design, the stator and the lockup are integral parts, but when it comes down to it, that's the basic concept transferring energy via a medium.
Jay, I never said the tc makes more torque, I was being sarcastic dammit.
Daz, how's my getting info from a book, person or anything different than you getting it from the net? Either way, I got to talking to someone this morning on the matter since putting in my tcc lockup solenoid I've had a weird buzz from my tranny.
Here's what I gather from off the site, talking to a transmission expert since actually this morning I had a weird sound from being at idle stop from my tranny...
Multiplication occurs but not at some insane rate as to create power. As you get close to stall speed (it states this on the site as well) torque multiplication goes down to 1. Prior to that, any torque gain is used on the planetary gears and bands to actually end up with a loss of torque by transmissions output to driveshaft. How else do you end up with gear selection? When all is said and done, by the time the torque gets to be used by the driveshaft its far less than what it started at. He gathered around 15-20% loss from the transmission alone.
I'm actually seeing how this works (I was shown a cutout and a book with equations as to how the damn thing gives multiplication), below stall the impeller is turning like 2500 RPM, your stall is 3000 and your torque at 2500 is like for simplicity use 250 ft/lb. Since you're not at 1:1 ratio, the turbine is turning far less than the engine say only 2000 RPM. In this scenario, you're getting a 1.25 multiplication if at 2000 RPM. Per 2000 RPM of the turbine, you're getting 2500 rpm's worth of torque... there's the multiplication. Unfortunately, you're still only turning the turbine at 2000 rpm, albeit with more torque... actually using 2500rpm's worth but in terms of efficiency, its just not there. This is why milage goes to hell if you lose your lockup...
Those of us blessed with lockup get to take back some loss in the tc after stall speed via the lockup which is for all intents and purposes the closest we'll see to a stick's clutch without dumping a clutch in.
I'm leaving the auto vs stick tranny fight down to personal preference. Daz, let's leave the tc alone lol, Jay's link has it all.
Do us all a favor use the perfect world equations on both arguements(how a tc works vs. how a manual transmission's clutch works)..
more things to consider re: potential..How do you upgrade a T-5?
9.5" torque converter
2.X torque multiplication
more efficient fins
lock up
Daz
Daz
Supreme Member
Joined: May 2002
Posts: 1,919
Likes: 0
From: Brampton, Ontario
You asked for it...
T=torque
a=angular acceleration
m=mass
r=radius of the lever
I=moment of inertia
I=0.5*(mr^2)
T=Ia or a=T/I
This is not a guess anymore, its physical law. You can't affect something without making a sacrifice. If you increase the moment of inertia via increasing the torque converter size, you increase mass and radius. This has an affect of increasing torque, but sacrificing acceleration. You can't have it both ways, more torque AND more acceleration? nope, you gotta sacrifice one for the other. With the impeller's acceleration of the fluid dropping the multiplication of the fluid speed to a factor of 1 when 90% of fluid coupling is achieved, in essence the moment of inertia is decreased and when lockup occurs, moment of inertia is brought down to the axis of rotation. Take figure skaters, when their arms are outstretched they spin slower, but if you get bitch slapped by one of them, odds are you will be knocked to the ground. They have a hell of a lot of torque at hand per rotation. Now when said skater brings arms in, they spin faster, energy is transferred into acceleration.
Basically how this applies to us, we want our cars from the very start to run as close to peak torque as possible from the start, thereby bypassing all the low end torque gain period needed to get to max torque. A larger stall does this by allowing spool up to that rpm. That said, from a standstill the amount of force needed to move a 3 ton car is incredible so you want the max available from the start moving your car, hence the multiplication and such. Once the car is moving though, you want ALL the energy transferred to acceleration, not torque (heck we all want to go faster) hence at lockup you want full acceleration per rpm, not overloaded torque per rpm.
This is for a solid cylinder mass or disk rotating about a fixed axis.
Torque is normalized to the rotational plane of the disk. Ie disk rotates along the xy plane and the direction of torque is along the z plane.
Simple experiment, if you spun a bycycle tire in your hands you can feel the force directed from the point of rotation. Ie close your hands in a fist and point your thumb out. Thumb is direction of force and fingers is direction of rotation.
T=torque
a=angular acceleration
m=mass
r=radius of the lever
I=moment of inertia
I=0.5*(mr^2)
T=Ia or a=T/I
This is not a guess anymore, its physical law. You can't affect something without making a sacrifice. If you increase the moment of inertia via increasing the torque converter size, you increase mass and radius. This has an affect of increasing torque, but sacrificing acceleration. You can't have it both ways, more torque AND more acceleration? nope, you gotta sacrifice one for the other. With the impeller's acceleration of the fluid dropping the multiplication of the fluid speed to a factor of 1 when 90% of fluid coupling is achieved, in essence the moment of inertia is decreased and when lockup occurs, moment of inertia is brought down to the axis of rotation. Take figure skaters, when their arms are outstretched they spin slower, but if you get bitch slapped by one of them, odds are you will be knocked to the ground. They have a hell of a lot of torque at hand per rotation. Now when said skater brings arms in, they spin faster, energy is transferred into acceleration.
Basically how this applies to us, we want our cars from the very start to run as close to peak torque as possible from the start, thereby bypassing all the low end torque gain period needed to get to max torque. A larger stall does this by allowing spool up to that rpm. That said, from a standstill the amount of force needed to move a 3 ton car is incredible so you want the max available from the start moving your car, hence the multiplication and such. Once the car is moving though, you want ALL the energy transferred to acceleration, not torque (heck we all want to go faster) hence at lockup you want full acceleration per rpm, not overloaded torque per rpm.
This is for a solid cylinder mass or disk rotating about a fixed axis.
Torque is normalized to the rotational plane of the disk. Ie disk rotates along the xy plane and the direction of torque is along the z plane.
Simple experiment, if you spun a bycycle tire in your hands you can feel the force directed from the point of rotation. Ie close your hands in a fist and point your thumb out. Thumb is direction of force and fingers is direction of rotation.
Supreme Member
iTrader: (1)
Joined: Jul 1999
Posts: 2,260
Likes: 0
Car: 87 Camaro
Engine: Chevy V8
Transmission: auto
Originally posted by Slade1
You asked for it...
T=torque
a=angular acceleration
m=mass
r=radius of the lever
I=moment of inertia
I=0.5*(mr^2)
T=Ia or a=T/I
This is not a guess anymore, its physical law. You can't affect something without making a sacrifice. If you increase the moment of inertia via increasing the torque converter size, you increase mass and radius. This has an affect of increasing torque, but sacrificing acceleration. You can't have it both ways, more torque AND more acceleration? nope, you gotta sacrifice one for the other. With the impeller's acceleration of the fluid dropping the multiplication of the fluid speed to a factor of 1 when 90% of fluid coupling is achieved, in essence the moment of inertia is decreased and when lockup occurs, moment of inertia is brought down to the axis of rotation. Take figure skaters, when their arms are outstretched they spin slower, but if you get bitch slapped by one of them, odds are you will be knocked to the ground. They have a hell of a lot of torque at hand per rotation. Now when said skater brings arms in, they spin faster, energy is transferred into acceleration.
Basically how this applies to us, we want our cars from the very start to run as close to peak torque as possible from the start, thereby bypassing all the low end torque gain period needed to get to max torque. A larger stall does this by allowing spool up to that rpm. That said, from a standstill the amount of force needed to move a 3 ton car is incredible so you want the max available from the start moving your car, hence the multiplication and such. Once the car is moving though, you want ALL the energy transferred to acceleration, not torque (heck we all want to go faster) hence at lockup you want full acceleration per rpm, not overloaded torque per rpm.
This is for a solid cylinder mass or disk rotating about a fixed axis.
Torque is normalized to the rotational plane of the disk. Ie disk rotates along the xy plane and the direction of torque is along the z plane.
Simple experiment, if you spun a bycycle tire in your hands you can feel the force directed from the point of rotation. Ie close your hands in a fist and point your thumb out. Thumb is direction of force and fingers is direction of rotation.
You asked for it...
T=torque
a=angular acceleration
m=mass
r=radius of the lever
I=moment of inertia
I=0.5*(mr^2)
T=Ia or a=T/I
This is not a guess anymore, its physical law. You can't affect something without making a sacrifice. If you increase the moment of inertia via increasing the torque converter size, you increase mass and radius. This has an affect of increasing torque, but sacrificing acceleration. You can't have it both ways, more torque AND more acceleration? nope, you gotta sacrifice one for the other. With the impeller's acceleration of the fluid dropping the multiplication of the fluid speed to a factor of 1 when 90% of fluid coupling is achieved, in essence the moment of inertia is decreased and when lockup occurs, moment of inertia is brought down to the axis of rotation. Take figure skaters, when their arms are outstretched they spin slower, but if you get bitch slapped by one of them, odds are you will be knocked to the ground. They have a hell of a lot of torque at hand per rotation. Now when said skater brings arms in, they spin faster, energy is transferred into acceleration.
Basically how this applies to us, we want our cars from the very start to run as close to peak torque as possible from the start, thereby bypassing all the low end torque gain period needed to get to max torque. A larger stall does this by allowing spool up to that rpm. That said, from a standstill the amount of force needed to move a 3 ton car is incredible so you want the max available from the start moving your car, hence the multiplication and such. Once the car is moving though, you want ALL the energy transferred to acceleration, not torque (heck we all want to go faster) hence at lockup you want full acceleration per rpm, not overloaded torque per rpm.
This is for a solid cylinder mass or disk rotating about a fixed axis.
Torque is normalized to the rotational plane of the disk. Ie disk rotates along the xy plane and the direction of torque is along the z plane.
Simple experiment, if you spun a bycycle tire in your hands you can feel the force directed from the point of rotation. Ie close your hands in a fist and point your thumb out. Thumb is direction of force and fingers is direction of rotation.
Youre x and y axis does not apply cause the crankshat is on zero..
read on perpetual motion,centrifugal and centripital force
Daz
Thread Starter
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 1,589
Likes: 2
From: British Columbia
Car: 90 IROC 5.7 hardtop
Engine: L98
Transmission: T5 swap
Axle/Gears: Yup -- they still work
hmmm...
Right about now I bring up T-56s and swaparoos and all that.
RP.
RP.
Supreme Member
iTrader: (1)
Joined: Jul 1999
Posts: 2,260
Likes: 0
Car: 87 Camaro
Engine: Chevy V8
Transmission: auto
Re: hmmm...
Originally posted by palric
Right about now I bring up T-56s and swaparoos and all that.
RP.
Right about now I bring up T-56s and swaparoos and all that.
RP.
almost the same $$ but two more gears!!
hahaha..flame away!!
Daz
Thread Starter
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 1,589
Likes: 2
From: British Columbia
Car: 90 IROC 5.7 hardtop
Engine: L98
Transmission: T5 swap
Axle/Gears: Yup -- they still work
Re: Re: hmmm...
Originally posted by Daz
rather go with a 700R4 with a GV gear splitter/overdrive/underdrive..lolol
almost the same $$ but two more gears!!
hahaha..flame away!!
Daz
rather go with a 700R4 with a GV gear splitter/overdrive/underdrive..lolol
almost the same $$ but two more gears!!
hahaha..flame away!!
Daz
...curiousitycuriousitycuriousitycuriousitycuriousity...
RP.
Supreme Member
iTrader: (1)
Joined: Jul 1999
Posts: 2,260
Likes: 0
Car: 87 Camaro
Engine: Chevy V8
Transmission: auto
Last edited by Daz; Oct 18, 2002 at 10:40 PM.
Moderator
Joined: Jun 2000
Posts: 2,364
Likes: 4
From: London, Ontario, CANADA
It gives you overdrive and underdrive in every single gear.... it was originally intended for R.V. applications until drag racers figured out that it would help keep them in the power band.
Senior Member
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 743
Likes: 0
From: Ont, Canada
Originally posted by Acceld Z
My thoughts exactly.
Hey Greg, I bet I can **** farther than you:lala:
My thoughts exactly.
Hey Greg, I bet I can **** farther than you:lala:
Probly, your johnson would be atleast 6 inches higher you bastard. But I do have a pretty extreme bladder, I bet I could get some pretty amazing PSI built up...
Supreme Member
Joined: Feb 2000
Posts: 3,145
Likes: 1
From: Kemptville, Ontario, Canada
Car: 1992 Z28
Engine: 355
Transmission: 700R4
Originally posted by Slade1
I can't figure out who's scarier, Jay or Daz lol...
I can't figure out who's scarier, Jay or Daz lol...
Member
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 391
Likes: 0
From: Sacramento,Ca.
Car: 90 Formula
Engine: 355 C.I.
Transmission: 5 Speed
Axle/Gears: 3.42
.. LOL .... man all this talk about who or what tranny's faster. It seams to me that the automatic is more consistant maybe in the 1/4 mile but the manual trans is by far a better street tranny and a lot more fun too... as far as which is faster.. Whatcha got under the hood ????
Supreme Member
Joined: Feb 2000
Posts: 3,145
Likes: 1
From: Kemptville, Ontario, Canada
Car: 1992 Z28
Engine: 355
Transmission: 700R4
Originally posted by 90Formula-X-F
.. LOL .... man all this talk about who or what tranny's faster. It seams to me that the automatic is more consistant maybe in the 1/4 mile but the manual trans is by far a better street tranny and a lot more fun too... as far as which is faster.. Whatcha got under the hood ????
.. LOL .... man all this talk about who or what tranny's faster. It seams to me that the automatic is more consistant maybe in the 1/4 mile but the manual trans is by far a better street tranny and a lot more fun too... as far as which is faster.. Whatcha got under the hood ????
Daz has a 305 with a SuperRam, a Coke can, and a spark plug.
Supreme Member
iTrader: (1)
Joined: Jul 1999
Posts: 2,260
Likes: 0
Car: 87 Camaro
Engine: Chevy V8
Transmission: auto
Originally posted by Acceld Z
Pretty much an LPE top end package. You?
Daz has a 305 with a SuperRam, a Coke can, and a spark plug.
Pretty much an LPE top end package. You?
Daz has a 305 with a SuperRam, a Coke can, and a spark plug.
correction: 9 sparkplugs... with multi sized plug wires,and most of all an LPE THROTTLE BODY PLATE!!!YEAH
Daz
Senior Member
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 743
Likes: 0
From: Ont, Canada
Originally posted by Acceld Z
Daz has a 305 with a SuperRam, a Coke can, and a spark plug.
Daz has a 305 with a SuperRam, a Coke can, and a spark plug.
greg
Member
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 391
Likes: 0
From: Sacramento,Ca.
Car: 90 Formula
Engine: 355 C.I.
Transmission: 5 Speed
Axle/Gears: 3.42
Originaly my car had a 5.0, 5 speed with the factory dual cats which ran pretty good but now I just got back from the second drive out an a new moter with maybe 100 miles on it...
A 355 C.I, 5 Speed With...
* Ported and Polished Early style Cast Iron Cylinder Heads with Manley 2.02 and 1.60 Pro-Flo Valves.
* A Ram-Jet G.M.P.P. Roller Cam with 1.6 Harland Sharp Roller Rockers.
* Adjustable Fuel Pressure Regulator.
* Simease Ported Plentum.
* The Intake is modified to fit the heads then Ported and Polished as in the thread from MadMax.
* The Runners are semi Simeased and all Gaskets Matching.
* A 52MM Holley Throttle Body.
* The Balanced Rotating Assy has 1.25 Dome Forged Pistons, CR = 10.4 - 1.
* Edlebrock Chrome T.E.S. Headers.
* Twin High Flow 3" Cats with 3" Exhaust tubing Replicating the Original Factory Dual Exhaust.
* Flowmaster Cat Back System and more... I am very happy with the results.....
A 355 C.I, 5 Speed With...
* Ported and Polished Early style Cast Iron Cylinder Heads with Manley 2.02 and 1.60 Pro-Flo Valves.
* A Ram-Jet G.M.P.P. Roller Cam with 1.6 Harland Sharp Roller Rockers.
* Adjustable Fuel Pressure Regulator.
* Simease Ported Plentum.
* The Intake is modified to fit the heads then Ported and Polished as in the thread from MadMax.
* The Runners are semi Simeased and all Gaskets Matching.
* A 52MM Holley Throttle Body.
* The Balanced Rotating Assy has 1.25 Dome Forged Pistons, CR = 10.4 - 1.
* Edlebrock Chrome T.E.S. Headers.
* Twin High Flow 3" Cats with 3" Exhaust tubing Replicating the Original Factory Dual Exhaust.
* Flowmaster Cat Back System and more... I am very happy with the results.....
Thread
Thread Starter
Forum
Replies
Last Post
no green
Engine/Drivetrain/Suspension Parts for Sale
11
Jan 9, 2016 09:22 PM
