I was checking out some posts for 305s that make power and cam across one Tim Burgess of Arizona. You can check out the thread yourself or read the piece I cut. It talks about

1) the power his 305 is making
2) the ETs and MPH with his setup
3) most amazing -- that he is doing it with a stock WC T-5

https://www.thirdgen.org/techbb2/sho...rank+shaft+305

cut/paste/hack...... According to Tim Burgess:

...I'm using the stock World Class T5 in my '92 Z28. The car runs in the low 12's with a 305 & 90 hp nitrous & high 12's on the motor, which has 130K miles on the '92 short block. Here's some numbers from my best run with the nitrous to show what the transmission has been up against & survived - it was at Speed World Motorplex, back in October '99.

Raw 1/4 mile track data:
12.294 sec @ 113.145 mph @ 1250 ft, 80 degrees F, 40 % rel. humidity

Peak hp @ rear wheels calculation from track data:
3400 lbs * (113.145 mph / 234)3 = 384.36 hp

Peak hp @ crank shaft calculation from track data:
384 hp / 0.85 = 452 hp


The rear wheel dyno results without using nitrous @ Bud's in Phoenix indicated peaks of 410 lb-ft @ 3600 rpm, and 312 hp @ 4200 rpm at the wheels, or a peak or 312 / 0.85 = 367 hp @ the crank shaft. So, if 90 hp for the nitrous is added to that number, 367 + 90 = 457 hp, which is very close to the peak hp calculated from the 1/4 mile mph, which is 452 hp.

The bottom line is that the motor is generating in excess of 400 lb-ft torque & the trans has survived 6000 rpm clutch dumps with Hoosier Quick Time DOT 275/50-16 tires out back. The torque rating on the GM WC T5 is 330 lb-ft. Needless to say, the Centerforce Dual Friction clutches don't last very long..........Tim

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Pretty amazing I'd say,
RP.

 

Personally I have a hard time believe he does constant 6k clutch dumps unless he has some ***** tires in the back... Doesnt mean its not true, I would just have to see it to believe it thats all. And T5s are well under rated...
greg

 

There's a reason the t-5's got the reputation they have now... its cause they do break under high torque loads. There were an insane amount of repairs under warranty for t-5's with lg4 engines. Dunno about the 88 above reports though.

A 6000rpm drop doesn't necessarilly mean a 330 ft lb drop. Remember with a extremely hot cam torque peak may not be at 6000 rpm, maybe its higher. 4.10 gears or higher will also lessen the load on the transmission as well, there are other factors that do come into play. GM made the decision not to put in the WC t-5 into 350 combos because the majority of wc transmissions were not up to task.

Its not to say its an oddball tranny either... I'm sure there may exist some castings of trannies made stronger for some odd reason or another that nobody ever knew about. Can't assume that if one tranny survived it, that the rest will. The stats on the t-5 say the majority won't survive it.

 

Yah with my luck it (my T-5) would unload on the first 6k shift. Bang clank crash call the tow truck...

But it is an interesting story and the guy is a moderator so has alot of people watching his car. Figure that adds some credibility.

adious,
RP.

 

Im currently running a T5 tarnny in my 91, its out of an 89 GTA. I dont know the numbers on my motor, because I havent dynoed it as of yet, but I know Im definately up there, and I havent had any problems yet, not really getting worse yet either, still the same.........

PS- I know its gonna break, but Im a broke college student now, so go easy on me!!!!

 

I redline dumped my t5 all the time with my 305 (15.7@90) and had no problems

 

Like I said, the 88 above ones maybe a different story altogether, but GM played it safe and didn't match them to the 350's. They had a good 6 years of warranty claims with a bunch of supposedly anemic 305s and in 88 the engine's just got a crapload stronger. Maybe they redid the tranny design, maybe the gears got forged, whatever the case the majority of t-5s are from the previous years. Just have a backup ready if you do intend to test this theory...

 

World Class T-5s (I thought it was 87 Iroc/gta and up, but it might be 88 and up like you said) are a fair bit stronger that the Lg4 ones. Also, gm couldve put the t5 in the 350s but any t5s with quality errors would break in no time. They just covered their *** and reputation thats all.
True about the 4.10s, but if he had some decent slicks on there I just cant picture a 6k drop. Thats pretty harsh on drivetrain in the low 12s...
And stang eater, dont worry about it yet. You mightve got one of the lucky ones and it will take it. Stealth ram is also more hp than torque (like I should be telling YOU lol) so who knows it might turn out alright.
greg

 

If you shock load a T5 consistantly, it will break, eventually. But so will every other stock manual transmission. Dave's IROC has a T5 behind it's 383 and it's still kicking but time will tell.

 

She's holding up just fine with over 400ft/lbs. Me and Paul will do a test. When a replacement is found, we'll see just how much punishment a T5 can take till it's demise. Maybe, we'll videotape it.

 

I was always under the impression the T5's weren't offered with the L98 (in Camero/Firebird) because of chassis flexing problems.
Wasn't it available in Corvettes?

 

No, 350 f-body's never got any "documented" T5 350 combos.
Vette's, I beleive, never got the T5. But the T5 is way under rated. Unless you can't drive a stick or something.

 

Back in the '80s I always figured the T-5 was not mated to an L98 because configured as such the IROCs & GTAs would forthwith and without much ado beat the Corvette silly in the 0-60 and standing 1/4 and that would be VERY bad for Chevy Corvette sales.

Any power gains the Vette had over the f-body would be lost due to it's fatass and overweight design -- IMHO. They are after all a very heavy car.

Oh yeah I've seen 5.0 guys use T-5s over 500hp. Sure they break but thats bangin it at the track. If you built a daily with the same power and did not get stupid on shifting it would last. Of course all mechanical things break down, wear out.

adious,
RP.

 

That's the thing, if you drive is sanely, the t-5 won't break. If you take it too the track or beat on it, people found out the hard way that they just fall apart.

I know for sure though that other than the warranty issues, the t-5 would make the irocs and gta 350's hurt their vette sales... the t-5 mated to the 305's and a decent cam had the 305's running almost neck and neck with the 350...

 

I'm gonna have to call BS on this "if the L98 came with a T5 it would've been faster than a C4" ****. No way. The T5 was not available with the L98/B2L because the output of the engine was above the capacity of the tranny. For every 10 T5s that survived, there would have been 5 or 6 that did not.

 

Mustang T-5s are different from F-body's...Do you really think manual trannies make it faster?You think Tim Burgess drives his car daily??

Daz

 

Daz, the bellhousings are different, but the insides are exactly the same. Fireball picked up my reverse fork from a ford dealership.
The gearbox is the same, but the bellhousing has canted the gearbox to fit in our cars. you can buy replacement parts at ford, and they can buy replacement parts at GM.

 

what do you think make the tranny strong?

Daz

 

We already agree that the t-5 mated to a higher output engine is death for the tranny (5 out of 6, 9 out of 10 doesn't matter; the odds are bad), but what we have to take into consideration is that a stick even in amateur hands is has a more potential due to gearing alone over the 700r4.

Take Paul, he managed to rip a 15.7 time on an otherwise stock LG4 engine with only the tranny swapped.

The magazine's that ran even the stick TBI cars managed a good 15.6 time... bone stock TBI cars with auto trannies run mid 16's/17's. It just goes to show you that the t-5 was very good in the fact that you could keep the car in its power band throughout the entire run.

On another note, we do have some t-5 350 combo members here and they drive those beasts everyday or at least a few times a week...

You guys are running what times though? How close is it to stock as well?

 

I'm sure this will start something
but, if you have two identical F-body cars (including REAREND GEARS), one 700R4 and one T5, the auto will win. (given the same traction and LAUNCH RPM).

 

JBWeld -- lots of it hahahahaha

RP.

 

You know what the amazing part is (if you follow the original thread) he claims he does drive it - everyday to and from work !

RP.

 

aHHHHHH another magazine reference..potential?How about running 11's and holding up?How about on a 6000lb Suburban,300HP,35" tires pulling 8000lb hitch?

T-5 will probably hold up if you stay slow..

Auto vs. Manual..

Torque multiplication and a converter adjustment offsets the difference..

Daz

 

Ive been following him for at least 4 yrs..20K in mods in the 110mph?no thanks..

Daz

 

First off......who is Tim Burgess??

Second - So what exactly makes the mustang t - 5 stronger? or is it identical to the gm t- 5 100%?

Third - I've talked to Cruz' N before about this in a previous post and I'm with him on this....If you KNOW how to drive manual, the tranny will hold. Forget about power. Besides, the only time I would push it is at the track. Not on the street. I'll take my chances. I have CAA Plus

I think the biggest thing that will do damage to a t-5 is traction. What I mean is if you do hard launchs at the track and your car HOOKs incredibly, than your t-5 will snap. That's my theory which is worth sh^t but hey...I've read enough posts on this web-site to crap a t-5 out of my a$$.

 

Your right you did!!

I am an avid fan of standard transmissions... but for racing I think you can't beat a Auto tranny for RACING the 1/4 mile.. they just launch out of the hole alot better... Just my personal experience.

But nothing is better than slamming through the gears when going through the quarter mile and catching those Auto's hahaha

What gear do you have 16thOwner maybe we can race and find out? he he he...

 

I think theyre both good..It all depends on the combo..

James,
I guess the secret for a lasting T-5 would be a torque less down low engine(like a 1.8 Honda)and a traction less setup...I guess you can always squeeze on 2nd or 3rd gear..lol

Daz

 

me and 16th owner has the same engine except for the intake..lol race me instead..

Daz

 

OK... I am always up for a race.... but I could have swore I heard you running in the 13's so I have some power shifting to do... hahahaha what was your trap speed DAZ?

 

I do agree with you Gerritt, manual is much more fun to drive. I use to be into the old 340, 4 speed mopars. Have owned 2 of them, plus an auto.
The only thing I was trying to say is, in the 1/4 mile, in 2 identical cars, the auto is quicker. Doesn't matter if a person knows how to shift, never be as quick.
We're talking street cars here, not 6 speed manual, no clutch dumping pro stock cars.
My car has 327's for now. I'm hoping I have some of the issues sorted out. Gonna test it at Sparta this weekend, but I know it needs a chip, so I'm not expecting real good numbers.

 

I know what Daz is running under that hood, but I won't let the cat out of the bag.... yet

 

I lie about everything so whatever Paul told you might not be true..talking about it doesnt do jack anyway..lol

Daz

 

Waaait a second Dave, you mean Paul AND greg . Im all about breaking stuff, and I got a digital handicam that would do a nice job. Next spring?
greg

 

Well in my opinion as well traction does play a good part in the life of the t-5.
As for 700r4 vs t-5, no way. 700r4 has a nice low first gear, but it is heavy, sluggish, and has a bit more drivetrain loss. Sure you can make a 700r4 as fast as a t-5, but using the same money you could probably buy 2 more t-5s...
greg

 

Stock for stock, same cam, rearend gears and traction, I'd still put my money on the 700R4. The biggest advantage a T5 has, is that it can be geared higher, and most of them are. Not sure if the cams are the same as in an auto?
But I guess my point is, that no-one can shift a manual tranny as fast as an automatic. Even stock.

 

I dunno bout that. I think you can **** a t-5 as fast as a 700r4 stock for stock. Put a short throw on and its very possible. Might not be the easiest thing on the tranny but it can be done consistently. The 2-3 shift would be a bit slower, but, 1-2 and 3-4 could be shifted consistently faster in my opinion.
Stock for stock a 305-t5 tpi can almost match a 350-700r4s ET times. I dont know what a t-5s OD gear is but I believe a A4s is .70. Cant be much lower than that. Not trying to start an all out b!tch fest, just some discussion.
greg

 

In stock form a T-5 car will own a 700 car all day long. In stock form autos come with wicked bad stall TCs, bad shift points and soft shifts. That's why all the magazines tests are done on the stick cars..... once you start modding an auto trans that's a different storry. If you look in any drag car at the strip you will see auto with a ratchet shifter.

 

Agreed... If I was building a drag car I would go auto for $ reasons as well. th350 parts are cheap as hell, so are race built th350s compared to a T56. And frequent racing in a t56 with lots of power would blow, how does shelling out $1000+ a few times a season for a good racing clutch sound?
greg

 

I agree, just a discussion. Also, a 305/T5 does almost match a 350/700R4, but the 305 has a higher rearend gear. It wouldn't be as close if they had the same gearing. But that's besides the point.
OK, the same cubic inch engine, with reasonable 342 gears or maybe even 373's.
The T5 would hit 4th to be at a 1:1 ratio and the 700R4 in drive, by the end of the 1/4. I doubt either one would need o/d.
It's still one less shift for the automatic. Also, a short throw is not stock, but if we can put money into a short throw for the manual, it's only fair to spend the same on a shift kit for the auto. And the auto is still quicker.
Hell, they use to race 2 speed GM powerglide trannies, because less shifting time is more time making power.
Anyway, I guess everyone has there own opinions and it'd be almost impossible to get 2 cars that evenly matched to try it.

 

Theirs a little more to it than that... but N/M

Even with matched rear end gears and engines a T5 car will still own a 700 car. The main reason is the TC.

 

Ya gotta read whyyyy up this post, to where I said about identical cars (kinda got off topic)
By identical, engine, gears, traction and launch rpm.

 

The TC design is a very tricky issue with auto setups. They should always have a stall less than the rpm where max torque is made at. If higher you simply can't use all the torque your engine has since we all know more or less the torque curve falls after its peak.

That's the real advantage of a stick, always using whatever torque its given. Below stall and its slipping, higher than stall and its still slipping, just cuz it says 1:1 at x rpm doesn't mean no slippage.

There's no multiplication either in a TC, its just an impeller and a turbine, same concept as a clutch except fluid dynamics is used to transfer torque. That's why its called a torque converted, not a multiplier.

 

Ya I remember the same launch rpm thing. I wonder what a stock car with a 3000rpm TC would do though. No one ever puts a tc on first so any times we could find would be for heavily modded cars. Remember though, with a good short throw you can get your shift length from 1-2 to about 2 inches. With good clutch work and hand co-ordination It wouldnt take a millenium to shift with that. Still, if I was running mega power I would go auto just because of the pricy clutches...
greg

 

too many wrong info on this post..lol

http://www.protorque.com/protorque_new/techi/ti_al.htm

http://www.converter.com/q7.htm

although youre right about choosing a TC 500-700 below peak torque ..your interpretation was wrong...lol

Daz

 

There's only one problem I find is with torque multiplication, if such an occurance did happen would not say a larger converter or higher stall create "more torque"??? Why don't all cars come with massive torque converters to multiply torque? Let's just make 1 ft/lb strong engines and multiply the torque 10x... heck I got 258 ft/lbs.. if I get a better stall I can make it run more torque than a 350!

Ok ok, I'm being silly, but physics dictate that you can't magically create force...

This is my problem with that statement, despite gearing and different torque converters big or small, a dyno gets the max torque produced by an engine... you can toss all every single different converter on there and then test it on a dyno and find the torque is virtually unchanged between TC's... it's not a magazine, a book number or a web site... its a dyno... the rear wheels will only output at best (100% power transfer) the maximum torque an engine can produce... unfortunately a lot is lost to the drivetrain in the form of heat and energy required to move a mass.

You can't magically turn 250 ft/lb of torque into 500 ft/lb... with a torque converter...

Just think about the design of the torque converter and try to figure at which part in the design does multiplcation occur? When the impeller is spinning faster than the turbine? When the turbine is the same speed as the impeller?

It's not like a gear setup... if the turbine is not spinning as fast as the impeller, the energy is lost as heat and slippage...

And according to the 700r4 guide book I have (yes I actually bought a book on this before) it makes no mention of any multiplication but actually makes note of its tradeoff of efficiency for convenience.

 

WTF are you talking about? You can never gain power with a TC. It just gives you the option of trading HP for torque. Unless the lockup is engaged in 4th gear the TC is eternally "slipping".

To answer your question the multiplication occurs as a result of the stator. When the turbine is spinning slower than the impeller you are not necessarily wasting that HP... it is converted into more torque by blasting the ATF at the turbine a second time. Ovarall TCs still cause a parasitic loss no matter what.

READ:
http://www.victrans.com/multiplication.html

PS: You just got yourself another season as T.A.O. official whipping boy.

 

bwahahahaha...You forgot to add ATF into the mix..not to mention the lockup converter...

You have the book but you dont understand it..Its like having the Bible and not going to church..lol

Daz

 

Without consideration on the wear it would cause, I could shift a T5 faster than a "stock" auto. I wouldn't try it with my application mind you, but i had done it plenty with the 5.0tpi in it.

 

You guys really think you can shift faster than an auto with a good shift kit?

IMHO, stick is just more fun than auto.

You ******** should quit trying to out post each other, it's ghey.

 

I knew I'd start something with this, but I never intended it to become a comparison between the 700R4 and T5...
Sorry guys... It seems around here, no matter where I go, I hear guys (ricers, rustang owners mostly) talking about how they can shift quicker then an automatic. They're only fooling themselves, because it may feel that way. It's definitly more fun, but not as quick a shift...
The end.