Ed Maher

ROFLMAO. Who's trying to reinvent the wheel for stock applications. There are plenty of completely stock TPI cars running bottom 13s. With the right luck and mojo, stock TPI parts have gone even faster than that. A 14.3 car does not really need to worry about the intake. OK, not entirely true, a baseplate on a 14.3 car should definitely be a worth a couple tenths. And as my own anemic 305 illustrated, even siamesing the stock base can run about even with the old peaky LTR setup without even fixing the chip. If TPI was so great i should have died from giving up all my torque right?

But this intake isn't even for stock heads. And most people swaping to vortec heads are not going to be lame enough to keep a stock cam in there. So we're not talking about mid 14 second stock cars anyway. Even worse than arguiing with bad information is arguiing something that doesn't even fit the circumstance

Swapmaster

I think everyone can agree that the intake is junk, right, let this
one die. Good theory, nice attempt, bad idea, let it die.

poncho@home

These heads are designed to work with a low lift cam....their flow charaterstics are all about high velocity and low lift...why in gods name would you want to swap out a well matched cam like the L98 cam something dramatically more radical, like say the LT4 Hot cam that seems so popular around here? the only thing you'd want to do is change to 1.6 RRs to increase lift slightly for the Vortec heads. The cam profile of the L98 is very good actually, wide LSA(117).415, .430 lift .442,.459 with 1.6...that looks like a nice cam for these heads and it's ideal for the LTR.

Ed Maher, I honestly can't figure out how you became a moderator hear. You so quickly dismiss others opinions on how to best make power and yet have offered no proof other than hearsay on how to do so. You have a 5.0 running what? 14s...that really isn't that impressive and you have obviously demonstrated that you don't know how to make a car run fast.

You're car is definatly a nice example of a convertible but don't claim to know how to make something go fast if you don't.

I on the other hand took a 78 TA and put in the 12s on street tires with a stock TC and smogger motor. Other than a mild cam I had 75 smogger heads untouched, 71 stock intake and small tube headers...completely stock bottom end and the car ran 12 on the street or the track.

Then my bro and I took a '77 TA 400 4 speed from 15.9@89 mph to 13.4@101 mph without removing valve covers.

Now I am taking and 14.7 GTA down to low 13s or maybe 12s with a stock LTR setup...

As you can see I have done it, and will do it again.

Now obviously I am not talking all out race car, but a good running "street" car, and by that I mean quiet, tight TC, handles well, brakes well and feels like factory spec. That's the challenge guys, going fast while retaining stock feel and look.

There is no doubt that 15 years of technology can produce a better product (LS1 vs. L98) but don't dismiss the old just because the new has arrived...There is a lot left in the old beast...just optimize it!

Ed Maher

I stopped reading right there. If you think a stock L98 cam is good for anything but a paperweight in a performance car, then there is nothing i can even say to you. It wasn't bad enough you were making up your own version of physics, but now 0.400 lift and lazy ramps are great for performance. Let's do each other a favor and just ignore each other because I am incredulous at your line of thought.

Ed Maher

OK i did finish reading what you wrote. Mid 13s out of a completely stock internal L98 is nothing special at all. The guy i bought my drag radials from was running 13.4 or .5 in just such a beast. Others have even done a little better. As for high 12s with a stock cam and TPI. Some folks are already working towards that goal, there's a really good thread on it around here somewhere too actually. I think the main protagonist was already to a 13.2 or .3 on a relatively poor 60'. IIRC it looked like a little more weight reduction and suspension and he'd have it.

But just because you can make a stock cam and intake go 12.9 doesn't mean it wouldn't be easier with better heads and a better cam and a better intake.

But i still can't believe you would keep a stock cam beating the heart of an engine with heads that flow 240cfm on the intake out of the box. That's hilarious. I'm not saying you need a huge cam, but even the LT4 hot cam you nention is far from radical. You seem to be pretty old school , so i'm sure you've thread the term RV cam before. The LT4 hot is like an RV cam with better ramp rates (more lift across the board = more flow = more power) and a hair more exhaust duration than you might typically see. All you have to do is look at Kevin91Z's combo making over 400 TQ AT THE WHEELS with an LT4 hot cam, AL L98s (which flow MUCH LESS than vortecs BTW) and a LTR setup. BTW his car has run 12.9 on that combo with a 5spd on a pretty bad 60' no less. Is over 400 at the wheels not impressive to you? Do you really think he could make more torque with a smaller cam? Or maybe the LT4 is an RV cam , wherein you have to get another 5-10' of intake duration before peak torque really starts to diminish.

edit, one last example. Compare the ZZ4 to a 91 corvette engine. Isn't it amazing that a nearly identical bottom end, exact same heads can make 110 more HP and 60 more lb-ft of torque with only a mild cam and a short runner carb intake? Since you seem to be weak on specs, i'll help....Off the top of my head SD L98 cam = ~ 203/207 @ 0.050. ZZ4 cam = 208/221 and idles like a stocker. And the AL L98 heads are an even smaller port higher velocity head than vortecs. And just by swapping to the LT4 hot cam magazines as well as some perf. oriented dealers see another 30+ HP gain as well as a few more lb ft to boot from the same engine, no porting or nothing.

I never said my car was the end all be all. I know it's slow. I also know that i haven't done anything to it yet. Why am i a moderator. Because i've ben at this site longer than it's been around. And i can show you examples of whatever BS you think i'm spewing. Just because i'm more concerned with paying down debt than making my car fast doesn't mean i don't know what various combos are known to run. Dunno what else i can do to convince you, but the stuff i am spouting is considered 'common knowledge' not 'hearsay'.

jmd

iTrader: (4)

:sillylol:


Me too.

Now, can we get back to discussing a dual plenum intake, or a basement level located plenum as I mentioned?

Matthew

Bort62

Hmm, I Think I know that guy

I recall Messaging Ed Almost a year ago with a "Oh **** I Got a little over zealous w/ the carbide Bit"

That got us talking, thinking - and Dismissing cause I didnt have the resources to Attempt it.

But There is a possibility it May not be such a terrible idea after all - especially for that Sleeper Look.

When My neighbor gets a Tig this next summer, Ill probrably do this just for fun - on a stock base

And Poncho - After reading all your posts I could swear you were a 15 year old internet expert.

runnin 12.7 With a 455 isnt exactly commendable. As far as your comment about spending all your time between idle and 3000 RPM on the street, I disagree. I spend about .5 Seconds In that Range Nailing it from a dead stop. From then on its 2500-6000 Till 130 mph.

You Obviously Don't have a firm grasp of physics - or too much knowledge on the theory that comes into play with engine design. You've done some things in the past and have gotten moderate results, and you appear to be in the process of continuing to do those things.

Thats fine if all you ever want is a mediocre setup. But I assure You my Modified TPI will be faster, Produce more torque, More Horsepower, And be Just as streetable as your stocker.

poncho@home

You see once again I am misquoted....first off i said 95% of you time...unless you drive on 1/4 track from home to work!

As far as mediocre results, I beg to differ running 12s in a stock bodied, interior, looking and sounding car isn't all that mediocre...

As far as physics go, I understand my fair share....this whole thing started because you "brilliant" engineers can't fathom that the actuall engineers that design these intakes know what they are doing. You guys are for the most part bench racers....and rarely go to the track to qualify your statements...

I don't doubt you can make more power with aftermarket intakes, runners and such, but I was just merely saying that it's not necassary to go fast. I know NHRA stockers that run 11s what does that tell you?(not an L98, so please calm down) but my point has been since the beginning that there is plenty there to work with...if you choose to work it.

It's funny how the loudest, or the ones who took most offense are the ones who haven't done anything yet but somehow know the magic formula....and are hiding behind other reasons...hey I have debts as well... a family to provide for, a house to pay, car payments....that's another great reason to work on maximizing what you already got....

A few months ago I was contemplating purchasing some runners to go with SDPC Vortec base and came across a thread on this site with a bunch of guys talking about their recent or past runner experiences....a few guys actually said they went slower after installing a set of SLP runners...you know why? Because the increased port diameter actually helped to slow down the velocity of air and possibly resulting in less air being charged into the cylinders...I am not sure but that's one possibilty, no? I am sure all you bench racers have your own reasons too!

You guys seem to think that we all drive around at 6000 rpm, well we don't. This whole argument was taken out of context of what my initial intention was....I stock appearing, sounding car that makes good power that can be done with the LTR setup

I agree these new generation TCs are quite impressive....but I thought you couldn't afford it!!!

Dustin Mustangs

iTrader: (1)

!

No sides taken here, but it sounds like somebody has put in some serious work at the internet horsepower factory! "Completely stock TPI cars" don't even lay down times that fast in my dreams.

I think both sides of this rather ammusing discusion have been streching the truth a wee bit.

Flame on

Jekyll & Hyde

What? I have seen bolt-on cars running 13's easy. Why is that so hard to comprehend? They are talking about completely stock engine. Drop some gears, stall (if applicable), bolt-ons, CAI, and tuning you got 13's.

Aron213

Yes unmetered air, just like a vacuum leak will cause you to run lean, so will this. Air is measured coming into the engine either with a MAP or MAF sensor, which along with other variables keeps your air/fule ratio in check. If you go adding "extra air" into the cylinder without it being measured you will have a lean condition. Just as if your intake gasket had a leak, I dont care what you do, you have a lean problem.


As far as anyone finishing this guys ****up, it wouldnt be that hard to weld a "plenum"to the bottom, but it will cost you alot more to replace your pistons when you burn them up!

REDZ28

My 91Z 350 ran 13.60s with just free mods and slicks, Got down to 13.11 with cam and headers and 3.42 gears, But I guess my LTR is just a slow pig compared to new cars.. NOT!!!!!!!!!

Bort62

Allright, I feel a really Long Winded post coming on - So Be warned.

You are really quite off base, on a LOT of things Poncho.

First lets discuss the potential merits and Problems of this design.

When you look at the stock TPI, It uses a Long Narrow Intake Runner to build high velocity at Low RPM. That combined with the nominal tuned effect of the intake pulses ( the whole reason its called TPI) Results in pretty decent cylinder filling at the RPM's and Displacement it was designed for (The rumors about it was deisgned with 5.0L Displacement in mind - I wouldnt doubt it)

So in some ways - yes, the GM engineers did a good job.

The problem is, If you lust after More Power, the limitations of the design begin to become apparant.

Most Specifically As RPM Increases, the Capability of the Intake to keep up with the Air demands of the engine deminishes.

This is due to the Long Path coupled with the Narrow Diameter. Try Sucking through a Long narrow peice of Vaccum line as opposed to a shorter one - The evidence of this will readily become apparant. Hold that thought.

Now - A brief Tangent:
In order to increase accleration, you need to increase power. Alot of things come into play here including gearing, tire size, ect.

But When we are talking about engines and power output, we are talking about a function of Torque and Time (rpm) - the following is all in referance to Instantaneous Power and Torque - as the principals can then be extrapolated across the entire timeframe.

An engine of a Given displacement And compression Ratio Can only produce a Certain Maximum Torque. That would be at 100% VE (cylinder filling) And 100% Combustion. You can't fit any more Air/fuel mixture in there, and you Can't Burn it anymore completely. (lets not worry about Super High end Motors and 100%+ VE right now)

So, Being that Power is a product of Torque and RPM - To increase power we must either increase Torque, Increase RPM, or Increase both. Since our Hypothetical Engine is A Constant displacement, and a constant compression - Torque can only be increased by increasing cylinder filling. (Combustion efficency isnt THAT big of a deal, all Modern engines are fairly close).

So If you have Managed to attain 100% VE, yet still want more power (wich is not uncommon as 100% VE at low RPM's is not incredibly difficult) You Only have one Choice left - Raise RPM.

And of course as you Raise RPM the Cylinder filling charactoristics and demands of your intake (and exhaust) track change. There is a point where the Diminishing capability of the intake path overcomes the benificial effect of increased RPM on power output, and Power Begins to drop. That is your Horsepower Peak. (Torque Peak will be where Cylinder filling is the highest)

In Short - there comes a time when it is nessicary to Raise the RPM at wich Maximum VE occurs in order to increase power output. You Do this By Changing Your Intake profile. Intake - Cam Heads - Exhaust, All play equally important parts.

With that In mind, We return to regularly scheduled programming.

So in your quest to Gain more Horsepower, You Raise the effective powerband by Changing Parts. The TPI system is one of these parts.

To Raise the RPM at wich the TPI is effective and delivering Ample Air to Fill the cylinder Completely you Need to either shorten the Runner, Increase its Diameter, Or both.

Your aftermarket TPI setups all Simply Increase the Runner Diameter. Your Lt1/MiniRam Intakes Both increase Runner Diameter, but also Drastically shorten the Runners Path. (Increasing Volume, while decreasing Velocity)

The Super Ram Is a Compromise of both, Shortening the Runners Path some what allowing for a Higher Volume of Air Than Stock, While Maintaining More Velocity at low RPM than The Miniram/Stealthram/LT1 - I think thats pretty Common Knowledge.

So how does Siamesing And our little Ebay experimenter play into All of this ?

Siamesing the Intake Base Effectively Shortens the Runner. The Mass of Air wich the runner "entrace" Pulls from is now No longer in the plenum, It is Within the Base. Of course the area We Create (its actually not an Area, but a Volume) By Siameseing isnt large enough to Completely fill the cylinder, So Air Mass is also drawn in through the conventional Runner from the Plenum to replace that wich is removed from the Siamesed area in the base.

This has a Hybridizing effect because while A portion of the Air Mass is avaliable in the base and only has to pass through the short remaining section of runner, The remainder is still Subject to The Limitations of the Intake Runner. This Limits Volume again - Just not as much as the stock setup (infact dramatically less)

real Quick Recap -

Less restriction And greater Volume Means Higher cylinder filling At Higher RPM Wich means More power.

Anyhow -

What this guy On Ebay has done, and what I had contemplated doing, Is increasing the Size of the Air Mass avaliable in the Base. In theory (all restrictions, obstacles aside) This will take the principal of the Siamesed base even further - Allowing for a greater portion of the Air mass to be drawn from the Siamesed area - Diminishing the limiting effects of the Runners.

Now, With the Design at hand Alot of concerns are present wich may limit its effectiveness. The First and Foremost being the Obscene Angle the Air would have to travel to make it from the new Section into the Main Runner Pathway.

But of course, there are downfalls to every design. If there wernt we would be able to make unlimited horsepower and unlimited RPM.

The question is do the benifits outweigh the detriments and Will it make more power with a properly chosen combination.

This Design is close enough to feasible that the only way to tell will be to Put a Motor together and put it on the Dyno. None of us has the foresight to Praise or dismiss this Idea Without doing so - the design is not so obviously flawed to allow us to do so.

So - Thats that. Im not sure what Aron means by this being Unmeterd Air, Because it is not. It is merely additional Plenum Volume With a shorter Distance to the Intake Valve. Any Air removed from this Mass Will be replaced By Air wich passed through the Trottle body just like any other setup.

True, Long distances between Intake Valve and throttle body can lead to sluggish Throttle response, but that isnt the case here.

I could go on about your Vortech Head L98 Cam comment, but I think this post is long enough already. Let me just say that yes the vortech heads are Best at Moderate lift - But lift is not the only element of Camshaft design, and is likely the least important. A cam with increased Duration Over the L98 Stock Cam will most certainly Make More power.

And the Vortech Heads Make their Great power Not because of Combustion efficency - That is Nominal. It is because of their High Intake and exhuast Flow Rates, Just like every other performance head. So In order to make more power you Will indeed be flowing More air - Not increasing combustion efficency (and what increase you do get from the newer chamber design is a SMALL percentage of total power increase)

So Uh Yeah - Your Wrong.

I suggest you Take a Minute and go to www.howthingswork.com - Type In "Internal combustion Engine"

Read through it Before you respond.

They even have cool little pictures that should put some of those convoluted images in your mind into perspective.

Jekyll & Hyde

Yeah, what he said...


OMG, you were right. That is a long winded post!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Bort62

Oh Yeah - One more thing.

Your So proud of your High 12 second Car, Think about this.

My car Is a similar weight, Similar trim with 3.42's and street tires Also.

It has a 305, wich is exactly 150 Cubic Inches smaller than Your Poncho's 455.

I have run a best of 14.33 at 99 Mph With an less than ideal run ( I won't list my excuses, I don't need them to prove the point)

By comparison to engines Wich are using the exact same parts as mine (Car craft buildup Using the Same Cam, Headers, Intake and Heads on the Same Lg4) I am producing a little under 300 HP at the flywheel ( And My MPH and weight Back that Up.)

Thats about 1 hp per Cubic inch.

My car is completely streetable - Daily driven in its current conditon for the last 40k Miles. I don't think a single person would complain about its Streetability (except for the Noise, but that can easily be changed without loosing power)

So, At a level of 1 hp per Cubic Inch If I were to Magically Change my 305 Into a 455, I would Pick up a good 150 Hp. I do belive I could Manage to Coax a 12.x Slip out of the car with an extra 150 ponies at my disposal even in its current streetable trim.

So Don't pat yourself on the back too hard - Cause The Pontiac 455 Doenst have The inherant Flaws that the 305 does ( Cylinder wall valve shrouding), Yet your Making less than appropriate 305 Power levels For your Displacement.

Doesnt sound that impressive to me.

Personally if I had a Big block car and it Only ran High 12's, Id be embarassed. There are stock Ls1's Running that Number with 100 Cubic Inches less. Just as heavy - even more streetable.

Hell, Ls6's are Hitting Low 12's On street Tires and Mid 11's On slicks.

blah

Bort62

It's funny how the answer with the most though and information to back it up is usually right.

Assume nothing....

Guest

Cruzin Kaz

I thinks I see a closed thread coming...

Bort62

Not likely unless it turns to Insults.

It is an interesting discussion apart from all the mindless blather.

This has actually really got me thinking about it again, And I might set out on it Once I get some other things taken care of ( like the TPI Actually Running First - lol)

But it is definately an interesting Idea that Could potentially Help those of us In Area's that Use Visual inspections a bit, Not to mention Help with the cool factor of Visual stock TPI runnin the #'s.

Its not likely however to be a basic DIY TPI mod as It takes fabrication skills beyond what most people Have.

89 Iroc Z

Just a thought…. I wonder why no aftermarket LS1 style intakes have come out for EFI generation I or II SBC. Does anyone know is any company has even though about making such a intake? Is it even possible to make such a thing on the gen I because of the distributor taking up room in the back?

Just felt like posting what I was thinking, feel free to say what’s wrong in my thought.

Ed Maher

To remind you poncho, i think this slightly clipped post from you is where everything turned ridiculous. The things you say in this post are illogical, and thus unless you were drunk, you're thinking is just out of whack.

It all started with the "my 12.7 '78 TA could beat much faster cars" statement, which doesn't make sense at all, since faster cars will inherently run better 60' times and stay ahead. Even cars with 100-150lb ft less torque than your 455, which kinda ruins the 'torque wins races' argument on you outright. Unless of course they are spinning and you're hooking. And thats not a fair comparison in any respect.

You then went on to say that air doesn't care if it is following a curved path. Sorry, but that is just flat out stupid and incorrect no matter how you tryt to slice it. Your logic has no basis in physics, or in racing, since you don't often see race cars running wild curvy intakes if a straighter shot to the head is available. In fact, a straight shot to the head is exactly what cutting edge performance intakes are designed with in mind. I can produce examples if you need me to.

Then you act like you need LTRs to make a car streetable. What you fail to realize is, an LTR intake basically pitches a tent pole in your powerband. Giving you a nice peak on the resonance point, and tapering off pretty quickly before AND after that. Yes, fact of the matter is, an LTR set-up produces less low end torque than even a short runner intake. Bet you didn't know that peak torque in an LT1 comes on at 2400 RPM. And guess where an L98s is. 3200. Man that just blows a hole right through your whole argument.

And that was just re-picking apart one of your posts. The stock cams are a good match for vortec heads is the most laughable of everything you said i think. Nevermind that there's a reason you don't see anyone even thinking about trying that except you. (in case you didn't read my examples, it's because you will make much more power and torque by running even a mild modern cam making the investment in the heads a lot more worthwhile.)

Look, you can try to call us inexperienced all you want, but fact of the matter is, you know a helluva lot less about making a fuel infected 350 go fast than you'd like to believe. I'm so proud that you had a big inch pontiac that ran decent times, but that has little to do with the discussion at hand.

All of your arguments are based on comparisons of a well done stock set-up to a wild set-up that was poorly thought out or executed, or are just completely wrong anyway (such as the cam thing, 180' turn thing...) I'm quite aware that a nicely done stock set-up can run pretty good depending on your goals. After all, that is the whole point of my car. I don't feel like sinking a bunch of money into it, or even making it especially fast since i need a cage to run 13s at the track anyway since it's a vert. Thus i'm creeping up on that number and seeing how stock i can keep it. I'm reasonably sure it will do it as it sits, an unopened 305 with a siamesed base, converter and headers. Can't get much easier than that. What is funny, when i pointed out that my stock 305 runs better than a lot of even modded L98 combos here you threw it in my face that i was comparing myself to bozos that didn't know what they were doing. Thats exactly what your 'my 400/455 (depending on the post) would always beat more radical combos was all about.

In other words, i understand the spirit of what you want to do. It's the dumb, illogical **** you've posted to try to make it sound like a stock combo is better than a modded one just makes no sense, mostly because it's untrue. While you can run OK with stock parts. As you upgrade things, you will go faster unless you are choosing bad combinations and/or not tuning it. Of course now i see you backing down and saying that, so what was the deal with the 'stock L98 cam is all you need to go fast with vortecs' or 'TPI isn't a bad intake design, anything more is unstreetable anyway'

90Formula-X-F

Common now.... I am still laughing at that. I don't know if anyone might think that would work and I am not even gonna read through the posts cause you'd have to take some pretty good drugs if to think there was any potential in that manifold. It's more like .. woops .. Damn .. better make this one a dual chamber..... roflol

90Formula-X-F

Ok.. I went back and started reading.... Anything would run but you'd be a fool to think it was worth wild enough to try and bolt it up. Why not just tweak out and cut the rop off a LT1 and try and weld it on your plentum.. Come on now....

Now when it comes to building power, it's all in what you prefer. Utilize what you can use and leave it at that. I been a mechanic for 27 years and I built my motor to run hard on the street I know I'll only run it down the quarter just to get some time slips. That's all I personally care about.

I used a G.M. RamJet cam with 1.6 rockers , Fully ported some early style big valve heads with about 10.5 compression in a new 350, Ported the plentum, runners and manifold. Went to a 52mm throttle body, Edelbrock Chrome TES headers, took off my factory duall cats for a Flowmaster cat back and a high flow cat. Made my own adjustable fuel pressure regulator and I think this may be the quickest thing I have ever owned. I know it is from stop light to stop light and I have had a couple of 12 second cars.. 70 Challenger 340 six pack which I'd love to have back and a 68 Camaro that was off the hook.. But I love my TPI and it will pass smog ....

Swapmaster

Ed, Max, Bort, life would be pure hell without you guys around.

Don't be too hard on the new guy. He probably has no concept of
how runner length, port velocity, plenum volume, throttle body
size, camshaft profiles (LSA specifically), combustion chamber
shapes or the rest of the mix actually work together to make an
engine perform the way it does.

You guys are just what I need after a hard weeks work.

Oh yea, Bort, you still da man!

Swapmaster

Formula-X-F, I think you missed the point. Actually, anyone who
doesn't understand the concept or theory behind why this intake
would work needs to use the SEARCH function on this site to do
a little reading. These concepts have been hashed over a few
times by people who know a thing or two about how air reacts
inside of an intake runner.

The only problem with this intake is the cost. The concept is good.

If you can't understand it then just ask your shop teacher to
explain it to you when you go back to school Monday. Ignorance is
bliss if that's what your into.

Ed Maher

90Formula, why would you take off dual cats and put a single on. You are aware that dual cats were a performance option right?

90Formula-X-F

I am one of those people and I am sure it will never be a choice for my aftermarket mods at a part supplier near me....

as far as knowledge goes ....

I am a driveability techincian
I have 27 years experiance
I'm G.M. factory trained ( San Leandro, Ca.)
I get paid about double what the local average is..
Other shops send me their problem cars

I specialize in about everything but especially fuel and air management.

And I'm here to help people with real problems not bs like this.

Later

90Formula-X-F

yes, I am aware of that. When I did the engine swap and went to headers The price of chrome TES 50 state legal headers with a single 3" cat was a whole bunch cheaper. OEM exhaust is 3" outside diamiter. The cats fed into that before even 1/2 way back, Now I have brand new mandrel bent 3" inside diameter flowmaster. It is really awesome and I know with headers and this exhaust I have gained.. Not lost. Another tech saw me jump on it across the parking lot yesterday and he said he never saw a car like mine ever sound yjay nasty I was coming toward him and he said it pull the front end up and twist and got all knarly was his words..LOL .. He said it looks super bad and he wanted one.....

Bort62

Wow, I Guess Ill just give up - Im not any of those things. One Thing I am However is Observant - and My observations have led me to the conclusion that this Intake design is Not So far-fetched. Some may say I specialize in proving know-it-all's like you wrong.


Another thing I am is a Mechanical Engineering Student - An analytical mind is a terrible thing to waste (Or try to argue with)

Swap - Id call it more of an "Ignorant Bliss - the 14 Second club."

I would Further what Swap has said - If you don't understand How this intake Might Work - You need to re-read my post because it is Spelled out Clear as day.

Everyone says "crazy, Stupid, Sexy, cool" - But I have yet to see any evidence from the nay-sayers. But that is Typical. It's Non Convetional - I can't Buy it In Summit, and Ive never Seen it on Hotrod TV. Can't work.

When did you try this and saw a loss of Power ? Where is your Fluid Flow Educational background that screams to you how obviously flawed this design is ? Hell, I havent even seen a basic Understanding of Physics from you guys. I may be Biased, But I would trust the Opions of A few fairly educated and obviously versed individuals over a guy who has spent 27 years changing Oxygen Sensors and another who couldnt give you Acceleration Given Delta Velocity and Time.

poncho@home

That explains it....Let us all bow to the Grand Master of physics, fluid dynamics and the internal combustion engine:hail:

Obviously us lesser beings don't understand....can you please talk a little louder though, it's hard to hear you when you're behind us in yuo lighting quick 14 second car....our exhaust seems to drown you out!

When you graduate and actually start working as an engineer you will discover there is more to life the theories....there is actuall application. While your theories may be accurate, what in gods name lends you to beleive that this specific design would work? Has anyone offered up any proof? We may not have proof that it doesn't work but you don't have any proof that it does.

And if this could work, then why hasn't someone like SLP or Accell or Edelbrock developed it so they can sell it to the fellas that need to pass visual inspection....sounds like a lucrative market no? Sounds to me that this theory is based solely in your minds and looks to me like a faulted design...but that's just my opinion.

By the way I was a proponent of OEM equipement....not junk aftermarket stuff....I write in pretty plain speak (ala Dubya) to help y'all understand...My whole point was that there is plenty in a LTR setup to make very good power with....

No I'd say you specialize in showing us the state of American education....take it how u wish!

Ed Maher

Nobody is arguiing that, of course there are fast TPI cars out there. But it doesn't change the fact that you can and will make more power using a better designed intake. The ease with which you can make a stock head/intake LT1 go a lot faster than even the best LTR combos illustrates this pretty well. All we are saying is that LTR TPI is an inherently flawed design due to obvious physical limitations. But since you know as much about physics as the average 11 year old, i wouldn't expect you to see that.

If your contention is 'TPI can go fast', then ours is, 'a real intake will go faster'. If TPI was so good a design in GM engineers minds, then why did they completely abandon it when they designed the LT1. You'd think with a heavier 4th gen car they'd want to maximize torque?

Oh thats right, i already established that you don't really lose torque going with a short runner intake using manufacturer data to back my claim, in fact you gain low end torque using a short runner intake. There is a scientific reason for that, but it would go straight over your head so i'm not wasting my time. Instead i will stand pat on my torque peak numbers as proof.

Or how about this. Did you know that ligenfelter/accell makes a superram for LT1 cars? Of course you didn't because noone runs one because it sucks compared to the stock intake. And a superram is head and shoulders above TPI in terms of potential, while still keeping the original intent of the design. Care to explain?

Bort62

Bwaahha - I am representative of the state of american education. I can live with that

I don't think I would pick GW as an example of intelligence in the modern world - but thats just me

And your right - there is more to life than theories. There is application of theory.

Physics - More than Any other subject - does not change out of the classroom.

If I drop a 10lb weight Off my desk in class, and a 10lb weight off my desk at home, They both fall to the ground.

The same goes to the principals of Fluid flow - and it is backed up by examples in the real word. Just like Ed has shown.

I love people like you, who fall back on "the who's car is faster" Arguement when you get backed into a corner. Whupty Doo My car is slower than yours - Thats fine. There are alot of reasons and Me not knowing what I am doing isnt one of them.

You can insult and cry and whine all you want - the fact still remainds that a modified TPI will run faster than your stocker Regardless. This Intake Idea isnt so far fetched and you might do well to Open your eyes and take a look at the world around you - you might learn something.

Btw, Answer me this :

Did your Uberfast 455 Have big Long Curvy Intake Runners on it ?

novadude

No, it doesn't sound like a lucrative market. Why would a company spend mega-$ on development, CARB certification, and tooling when there is no payback. Face it, the 3rd gen market is SMALL. Add to that the fact that 90% of thirdgen owners would rather make a free air filter from seatfoam than spend $30 on a K&N (don't laugh... that was actually posted here). Who would buy it? Very few 3rd gen owners would pay the cash for an expensive intake, even if it works. That is why people siamese bases, modify LT1 intakes, etc instead of just buying the mini-ram.

NOTE: I am not putting down people looking for cheap HP... hell, I am the king of cheap! I'm just saying that no one would buy an intake even if it were developed.

Bort62

Exactly Nova - Why doesnt SLP continue to Develop the T-Ram ?

It works doesnt it ?

Why Did it take Holley So Long to Come out with the Stealth Ram ?

Because it isnt a market worth a ****.

poncho@home

I just realized how "observant" you actually are.... the tone of my original quote:

...was actually an insult to you. But I guess your keen observation tools missed that one!

As far as this :

People that can, do...those that can't, teach! And you sound more like someone trying to teach all us dumb folk something than someone who is capable...

I never once said the LTR setup is the best....All I have said is there is plenty of power in a LTR setup....yeah sure other systems might make more power, so? It doesn't prove that this idea would...

No it didn't, but that's not my point...it had plenty of other limitations back in the day when compared to Hemis or Chevys, and yet it performs quite well when up against them.

poncho@home

That's not entirely true...if someone developed an intake that can pass visual inspections and prove to perform better than original I am sure people would purchase it...there are alot of TPI engines out there....

The problem is that most aftermarket parts a sh1tty...Once you start to realize this you prefer to have OEM parts and work with that. I happen to know a few engine builders that have built some impressive cars, NMCA recold holder, NHRA A Stocker, and they can't believe some the junk aftermarket components there are out there...they have often seen power loss on the dyno when bolting on some aftermarket intake compared to the original factory one.

Bort62

Allright Poncho - You obviously think you have the formula to build the best Street car - So lets see it.

Im Calling you out. You build your's and Let's see what it does. Make sure to avoid using any of those Sh!tty Aftermarket parts When you do.

And when you get it done, lets put it on the track And compare it to what I have built - Using ****ty aftermarket parts even.

Thing is, I don't have to build it because its been done already, Buckeyeroc's Car.

Stock Bottm end L98, sh!tty AFR 190 Heads, Sh!tty Ligenfelter Super Ram, Sh!tty LIgenfelter 219* Cam, And Sh!tty Edlebrock 1 -5/8 TES headers.

If I were to suddenly get a donation for 7 Grand - Thats the street Engine I would build (except 383" and Forged Rotating assm, But thats not important) - Because I have Observed how well the Heads/cam/Intake Combo has worked (despite Sh!tty aftermarket parts) for him, and others.

So the Competition Is on. Your OEM part - Stock L98 Cam - Stock TPI Wonderbuild Vrs Buckeyeroc's Completely streetable Full weight AC Power Everything Car.

He's already run a 12.3 With Stock Tuning using a MAF setup, Will probrably hit 11.9x with Speed Density and PE Tuning.

Can you Hang ?

REDZ28

Oh Ya Bort, this is coming from you the guy who didnt believe My freinds LTR Vettes ran 11.30s with aftermarket stuff N/A. You seem to know everything yet havent actually done anything!!! How many 13, 12, 11 or 10 second cars have you built Bort??? You seem to the Best bench racer Ive ever seen! Not that I agree with everything Pocho is saying but the bottom Line is LTR cars can run fast but everyone wants to knock them as say they are inferior and to change intakes and so on. There are plenty of fast LTR cars. Glad to see you are finally realizing it , at least in this thread!!

Bort62

When Have I ever Said LTR Car's Couldnt Be Fast ?

Im Not exactly sure what your point is red - Yeah I had a hard time belving your Buddies Stock TPI Car ran an 11.30 - Of course then it turned out it wasnt stock TPI it was aftermarket and Ported By LPE and all sorts of other details came out of the woodwork wich made it all Alot more feasible.

So in the end, Yeah I belived your Buddies car Ran that number - Once all the details came to light. And You Will Notice It turned me on To How fast Lpe's 219* Cam matched with a LTR or SR setup Can be.

But thats not the point - Am I A Benchracer ? Yes and No. Do I have a fast car ? No, and I havent exactly attempted it either.

Have I worked on Fast Cars ? Yes. Have I Given people suggestions that Turned around and Made their Car's Fast ? Yes.

Do I have Hands on experiance with 13, 12,11,10,9, and 8 Second Cars ? Yes.

But None of that matters. Im Calling Poncho Out on his Claims - He says his OEM TPI is better than aftermarket Along with all his other Statements - So lets See It. We have an aftermarket Car to compare it to, Lets see what he Can produce. If he is Right, Then He will be faster - Simple as that.

Hell Red, I was even going to Mention Your buddies Car as an example of Aftermarket LTR and runnin the # - But I figured I wasnt fresh enough on the details and it was A corvette So not a Fair Comparison.

But I trust, Red, That you Don't think Stock TPI on Vortech heads with a Stock L98 Cam is the Ultimate street Combo? - I know your not a Moron, You were just a little breif in your description of your friends car.

Btw Poncho, Im not sure how you plan On using TPI with the Vortech Heads without Using At least 1 "Sh!tty Aftermarket Part"

Or is that one Not quite So ****ty ? But then Your using an aftermarket Base - And Your not using OEM Equipment anymore are you ? Kinda Hard to Claim Stock TPI when you have an Aftermarket Hi-Flow Base.

The Anvil

Chalk me up as an LTR fan also. I agree with much of what Poncho has posted concerning the LTR's. That big torque curve under 5000 RPM is where the stock TPI system shines, and the average street driven car spends the overwhelming amount of its time in the lower RPM ranges where TPI can really do its work.

Certainly theres a place for the high-winding short-runner big-cammed cars, but on the street the stock TPI system does the job for what it was engineered to do, and that is to make gobs of low/mid-range torque.

I guess its all in what you're trying to accomplish.

On the topic of intake runner lengths, lets look at the length of the runner from the plenum to the entrance of the cyl head:

TPI: 21"
LT1: 3"
LS1: 14"

Looks like GM thought the LT1 might be a little too short in the runner dept., and decided going back to a much longer runner than the LT1 runner length would work best for the LS1. Perhaps the longer runner was the 'happy medium', so to speak.

Lingenfelter states in his book that the LT1 is actually a compromise intake, and is not exactly what the GM engineers really wanted for the LT1 engine, but they had to make the runners short to clear the 4th gen f-body's sloping hoodline. For high-torque street applications, he replaces the LT1 intake with a Super Ram and cuts 5/8" off the upper plenum to clear the cowl. Even with all the extra work to do that, he says its worth it for the increase in torque the longer runners give his street engines esp. when used with an automatic trans.

Dave

BadSS

I can't stand it anymore.

Screw hacking up the TPI base, the long runners is the main thing that it has going for it. Build around it and you can run well in the 12s if you can hook. If you want to run any faster than that, buy another intake system like the StealthRam - I'm not saying that you can't run serious times with a LTR intake if you put enough engine under it - just it makes it easier with another intake.

Poncho, I suspect the guys slowing down with the SLP runners either bolted on one of the original sets to a basically stock 350 (or 305),, or did no modifications to the plenum area,, and / or installed the cheesy stock gaskets they supply with the runners as is (they over hang into the runner opening). The castings are off a little at times,, so bolting up a 1.6" runner to a 1.5" stock base,,, could cause turbulence at the base and hurt airflow. Anyway,, if you port the base and plenum, clean up the newer design SLPS, and run the larger Mr. Gasket runner gaskets (or make your own),,, they will perform better than stock runners on the same ported intake and plenum on any half-assed 350 - no doubt about it. Larger runner diameter does very little to hurt your torque curve (unlike shorting the runners) while still helping the higher rpms. Plus there are porting tricks you can do to the SLP runners to add volume while keeping "D" velocity up (hint).

poncho@home

When have I said the the stock TPI LTR is the ultimate setup...All I have said is 2 things, I beleive that there is plenty of power to be made with a LTR setup and as a street car, it's power band and high torque number really give you an advantage against faster cars, and that this dude's idea of hacking up a $400 intake is pretty crazy ...

As far as using the Vortec heads, unfortunately yes I do have to use an aftermarket intake base, but in my opinion the advantages of using these new but still OEM heads outweigh the possible disadvantages of using the SDPC base.

In the end the base might end up being sh1tty or possibly better than the stock, but the vortec heads are far superior to the original L98s so I'll risk it....

Swapmaster

I can't take it anymore either.


I'm out.

Jza

There's plenty of pull-off TPIs out there. I say someone with the resources just try it and see what happens. Hell, I'll do the modification if someone sends me a spare base. Then I'll send it off to our shop to be fabbed and welded back together. Then someone else can volunteer to be the guinea pig.

Otherwise, like Swapmaster: I'm out.

xanax

how can you turn a post about an intake for sale into a pissing contest. better yet why? that "well im this and im that" is pretty stupid

Ancel Zero

OMG someone bought it!

NOSFEDGTA

I agree with this. It always seems as if poeple are more concerned with the fact of who is right and wrong. It seems like many posts turn out like this and its a shame. Someone has a question or idea, and wham he is like hey what about the subject at hand here.>?< It also seems like others get away with whatever they want, and then a "nobody" has somehting to say and then he is in the sh!| box.

Drew
87 Trans Am GTA <-- in the 10's
88 Trans Am WS6 <-- in the 11's
94 Camaro Z-28 <-- dont know yet

Bort62

Thats all fine and good, But pissing Match or not I want to know if Poncho can rise to the challenge.

Two Days and no Answer, sounds about par for the course.

Another one bites the dust.

Bort62

Well isnt that the whole point ? lol.

People are making claims that are wrong - of course we are concernd with who is right and who is wrong.

poncho@home

Bort I can rise to the challenge no poblem, but it seems you can't....It's pretty easy to offer a challenge against someone if it's not your car...how about you with your car? Otherwise what's the point? I can show up with an 11 second stocker but it won't be mine...

When you are actually ready to challenge me like a man then you'll get a response from me. Otherwise don't waste my time.