Well, i finally got her running yesterday and the valves adjusted

well, anyways i done a scan and found some incredable things going on.....

for instance the o2 readout was acting normal going back and forths from rich/lean like it should... it doesn't smell no more rich than it did with the stock motor!!!! and idles perfectly at 650rpms with 30lb ford racing injectors!!!!

but then it through a code 13 for the oxygen sensor..

but i need to ask a question about a few things.....

when should the total timing be in at? it had 35* at 2000 rpm and didn't detonate one bit!!!! the knock sensor didn't pick up a thing...

the o2 cross count were doing as normal and temp stayed around 180* max.....

it just seems kinda sluggish when ya first start it but after it warms up it runs bad as ever.... i mean raw!!

i set the tps right at .52 where it should be at idle and the iac when the key was on, was at 160....

i think it's ok but i know ed maher and a few fellas said it would soak the rings down with gas and mess everything up..... i want to drive it home but should i??

ii's not blowing out smoke or nothing...... it seems to be fine but i just don't see how? it's running on a stock 89 tpi 350 chip..... i'm just dumfounded

eagerly waiting for a reply....

 

I don't undersatdn how the O2 is acting normal, yet you get an O2 sensor code. That does not compute.

And any damage from running way rich as you are is going to happen right from the start. The whole point of the previous discussion was that washing the cylinders down is bad, and that includes no load break in.

Did you buy the 30lb injectors new? If not, how do you know they are 30s? Other than that, i don't know why it is 'working' as well as you claim. I'd chalk it up to dumb luck. Like how you can have a leaking waterpump for 6 months and never know it. But as soon as you actually see the tell tale weep trail running down the hose and decide to actually change it that weekend, next thing you know it pukes later that night.

Seriously. Everything you were told in that previous post is true. Your computer is not doing anything to compesate for those bigger injectors. You are running 36% rich. And yes that could be why you are getting the code. And yes that can cause serious engine damage. It's your car, do as you want. Maybe you'll get a way with it and be thinking damn that ed is way too cautious this works great (which you can get back to me on if you drive it like that and don't end up with 108 BLMs) . Then again, in a week you might be asking why you get hella blue smoke under load.

As a matter of fact, i'm a little fuzzy on the exact routine the ECM would use to throw a code 13, but i think 13 would be a closed loop (or more like attempting to get closed loop) code. If so, what are your BLMs. Or how/when is the code getting thrown. If you just let it idle, will it throw the code? If so, on a warm restart watch the injector pulse width. If i was a betting man i'd throw a dollar down that you'll see the injector pulse widths gradually decrease, and then eventually (when it hits the effective 108 BLM) it triggers the code 13, assuming that the O2 is bad since it can't get it to switch properly no matter what it does to pulsewidth. Might even get a steady increase pulsewidth depending on how confused it is.

 

it seems to run ok, it did throw blue smoke from being rich when the valves were to tight keeping the intake open, it would barely run i adjusted them......

the temp max would be around 180 or so, the coolest was like 168 or somthing.. the block learn was right on 128 and didn't waver a bit.... could it be the high flow afrs putting enough air for the fuel? maybe the 02 was fubar?

i just don't know...... my teacher seems to think there isn't enough back pressure on the exhaust for it to read right...... i dont have mufflers on right now...... just 2 straight duals...... with a h pipe... i modified a bin and it's suppose to be on it's way..... it has been compensated for the 30's

and yes they are 30lb injectors, new from summit racing, theyr'e red tops....

thats why i'm so puzzled...... you showed how it wouldn't work but it is....... i just can't figure it out....... i think i will wait on the chip before i start it again.....

what should be some of the things to look for in a scan?? what type of parameters like inj pulsewidth should be??

anything is helpful ed......

thanks

 

Lack of backpressure is not going to affect O2 sensor readings. Thats way old school mythology. The only way you'd have a problem is if you were running open collectors, or even a colector/header leak. In that situation, fresh air can sneak back up the exhaust a bit and skew the reading. But if you have a few feet of pipe on it you should be fine there.

And again, high flowing heads are not going to make it use more air at idle. And even if it did, remember, the MAF measures the air coming in and injects fuel to match. So even if it was drawing more air, the MAF would see it and still inject more fuel anyway.

BLMs are meaningless if you're not in closed loop. It will always be locked at 128 when in open loop. Whatever scan tool you're using should be able to show you the open/closed loop flag to check that. BTW, what scan tool are you using anyway?

It's not that i'm showing it won't work. An engine can run on a too rich mixture for sure. The question is, how much unseen damage are you doing. You won't know if you're washing the cylinder walls until it is too late. You aren't necessarily going to be blowing black smoke or anything just from being 36% rich, so don't count on that as a warning. I don't know what else i can tell you. Is it possible to do what you're doing and get lucky. Yes, sometimes happens. But on a new engine, it's a chance i wouldn't take.

If you're dead set on messing with it as is, then like i said, i'd go right for that code 13. Check it like i outlined in the other post. If you actually have to drive it or something to get it to throw the code then it will be tougher to figure out though. You said the O2 readings looked normal and were getting cross counts and all of that? That doesn't fit, unless the sensor is intermittently failing from a bad ground or something.. Whatever it is though, you need to isolate how/what causes that 13, and what is happening right before it kicks in. Like does the O2 go from normal 3-800mv cross counts and suddenly show 0. Or are your cross counts barely getting too / past 450mv? Or is it fairly steady, with the injector pulse width moving around like the ECM is trying to affect change and can't get it? Hopefully whatever scan tool you're using has logging capability so you can just trap a set of data and pore over it to find the story.

BTW, rich running engines are always going to feel pretty peppy. Thats how AFPRs first really caught on. Put one on a TPI car and crank it to the moon and the car will indeed feel faster. The butt dyno is a big liar though, more sensitive to the throttle reponse than the lack of pull. Hell, even i went for that trap when i first got my car. I did the pocket change in the FPR trick when i first got the car before i got into the chip or any other tuning. I drove around w/ 55psi for quite a little bit before i realized how dumb it was and then i even proved it wasn't worth anything.

 

You already fired it up, and let it warm up apparently. May as well just drive it home.

 

so i went in and decided before i tried to start it and read the scanner, i would pull out a spark plug.. sure enough it was sooty as hell..... so i am going to have it towed home and change the oil to be safe....

that way it cant do anymore damage if it has already.....

thanks for the help and the explination again ed....

 

one more question....... how can you tell if you have done any damage???

now that the lifters have pumped up when you rev it it throws out bluish rich smoke.... not enough to be black..... i had it towed home and i don't plan to start it until i get the chip in.....

have i done any damage??

 

You likely thinned the oil with the excess fuel. Change the oil and filter, start it briefly to build pressure and let it circulate a bit, then shut it off and wait for your EPROM.

 

Bluish smoke is not rich, it's oil. At this point i would go on down to church and light a few candles. What you are describing could very well be signs of exactly what we tried to warn you would happen. The excess fuel washes the oil off the cylinder walls, which is death to a motor, especially a brand new one that never had the rings seated in the first place. At the least as vader said, the excess fuel also gets blown by the rings, thinning the oil. Either isn't a good sign.

Maybe it's nothing and is just some normal smoke from breaking in, but it shouldn't be all that noticeable if it was 'normal'.

From here, (after church and changing the oil that is), get the right chip in it and drive it. After a few hundred miles if you've still got smoke, or it's getting worse you're going to be pulling the engine, re-ringing and honing.

 

it's not oil dude... it smokey but it's hard to explain without being here..... it's not like oil smoke but like rich smoke, blackish/garyish looking.... it dosen't do it when it idles only if ya rev it real good...... if it was the rings it would do it all the time right?....... because if they are screwed at a rev then they have to be srewed at idle...... no 2 ways around it...... i think the reason it smokes when ya rev it is because it's blowing that rich *** gas out.... atleast thats my teachers theroy.... i belive him...

anyhow, if it's fubar, it's fubar. but i gaurentee there will be a few people with so called bad motors go down here before it goes down, if it does that is.......

 

In my eyes your 'teacher' already established he was completely out of touch with his ideas on the O2 sensor. I wouldn't listen to a word he says about anything after saying something as dumb as that like it was fact.

And yes smoke from oil burning will definitely be worse when revving and especially under load. More cylinder pressure, as well as increased engine speed make it that much harder for the rings to control the oil. Especially worn rings act like this. Things like bad valve seals can tend to be worse during high vacuum conditions like idle, but rings are all about load and rpms.

Hey if you're sure it's just gray and is rich,thats on you. I was simply going by your initial description which said blue, and blue is not fuel. I don't care what color the smoke is, it isn't my car, i'm just trying to give you advice.

And even if it is just gray smoke from being rich, the more you keep rrunning it and revving it, the more likely it is that you're going to screw it up.

 

i can't say he really doesn't know what he's doing. hell he's has an associate professor in mechanics as well as being ase master certified, but as you said, i'll agree that he is behind on the fuel injection and how performance stuff is....

yeah it's grayish black.... i went out yesterday and pulled out the dipstick and took a lighter to it to see if it would catch fire but nope didn't do it....... then i wen't to the tailpipe and it was sooty as hell but no oil in sight.......... the soot was everywhere under there lol........ i thinks the smoke hit the sunlight and thats what made it look weird.....

but yeah, i'm waiting on the chip and as soon as i put it in i will change the oil before firing it up.......

this chip was one that contains a modified arap that i did... i changed the basics like flags and coolant temp vs idle.....
i changed the inj constant to 31.5 for the psi difference of ford to chevy......

ed, from this point after the chip is in where do you feel i should concentrate my tuning efforts in trying to get it perfect? i'm pretty sure that it will idle half decent with the inj constant changed but now where do you suggest i modify now? maf tables possibly?

again, thank you for your patintce and wisdom in this matter, you have been very professional and have went far out of your way to help... thank you!!!

 

Tune MAF. Bwahahaha. Go to the track and adjust the timing curve. Other than that, MAF sucks, convert to SD if you want to truly dial it in, lol. OK, doesn't suck, but it's definitely black magic, and i've never messed with it myself.

 

It just sounds to me like your engine is running really rich. What kind of ignition timing are you running right now? Are you still running platinum plugs?

 

i have the afrs so i bought the acfrls3's i think... i would have to look... it's the ones afr reccomend in their catalog........

yeah shes just running real rich...... that chip should be here soon... i'm going to get next generation by year one to do the final one.... that should do the trick.......

hey ed... with just the injector constant changed would it be safe to start and or drive in your opinion? the new chip was set at 38* total timing in the constants table....... i also moddified a new timing arap table....... if ya would take a look and tell me what ya think... i'd like to get several opinions on how everything looks so far before going into fuel maps etc.......

the only timing changes i made was if there was anymore than 38 i changed it to 38....

stock has as much as 41* and thats too much.....

 

What are your blms at idle? All you have to do to get it running ok until you tune it is to adjust the injector constant.

If you can make it down to Nashville, we are tuning and ripping apart some cars tonite and tomorrow. We'll be burning chips also. It ain't rocket science.

More than 38* at part throttle light load is fine.

 

bort62 is the one who burned the chip... i sent him a modified arap bin and since he had the equipment he burned it......

40 bucks is cheap if ya ask me..... that i think will get it running safe.... i wish ed would take a look at that bin at let me know...... he seems to know alot about this stuff.. him and bort that is.....

personally, i wish i had just went carbed, but when the gas bill starts coming in i wan't a shred of economy and the stealth ram should perform better than a carb.......

theres just so much i don't understand........ and i know everyone has to be getting tired of me asking questions all day.... it would be nice if someone made a video on how to tune... they could make a fortune....... i know i would buy it........

ahhh lord.. maybe one day she will run right, until then i can atleast look at her..... jut knowing what she sounded like is enough for me.....

 

So far i have burned exactly 3 MAF chips in my life, and all were basically stock bins of one form or another. All i can tell is you have to experiment to see what works. The ARAP scalar tables are supposed to be pretty good. The PE fuel will need to be set at the track, for now i'd bump it up maybe 10% or so to err hopefully way on the rich side at WOT to keeo you from frying the new engine. And timing is even more specific to your combination and driving style, also something you can only truly dial in at the track or something.

And the other guy was right btw, 41' at part throttle isn't necessarily extreme in an AL headed engine. But keeping timing a little low on purpose is never a bad idea on a new engine anyway.

 

i just wanted to say hanks for all the help so far...... yeah i was kinda worried for a minute but i think i'll get it soon enough.....

so now let me see if i have understood you correctly....

1: i did right by lowering the timing to 38* total?

2: she will be ok to drive with just the inj constant changed to 31.5 for the psi difference.. 30lb ford injectors..

3: i need to change the oil before another attempt of starting?

4: this will be a nitrous motor... i will have a 100hp shot of n20 ready so i will get a msd retard box for it and remove 4* total.....

5: where is the pe table located? is it named differently in the arap?

thanks again!!!

 

I can send you my bin. It is for a 383 maf car. You can either turn down the initial timing for the bottle, take it out of the chip, or run stock timing and run the fuel side rich and/or run a mix of 110 turbo blue and 93 octane. They sell turbo blue at beech bend. I get an O2 malfunction code everyonce in a while, but it goes away in 4 seconds, so I don't worry about it. 100 shot isn't alot. I know some guys who spray a 200 shot with pump gas, but they run 25* total timing at the track. I wouldn't recommend that, I'm just saying you have to see what works for your set-up. I used to 'test' on a straight piece of road near here, but just got a ticket for squealing my tires during a 'test' run, so I keep my tuning at the track or on the freeway. I can burn a chip in the staging lanes at the track in about 5 minutes. Get a dc-ac convertor for your laptop and you can plug the burner and laptop into it at the track.

Like I said, if you can make it down to Nashvegas we are playing around tonite and tomorrow, and might even hit the dyno at the performance garage tomorrow, but don't know for sure right now.

 

1- yeah, shouldn't hurt anything. I'd have gone a step further and reduced timing across the board maybe 5' or so while breaking it in. The ARAP is a pretty high timing bin, but not necessarily too much for an AL headed motor with reasonabale compression

2 - yup

3 - i would, the oil could very easily have been thinned out by the gas. Earl is cheaper than a bottom end. Besides, it's a good idea to change the oil after the initial start up and warm up anyway.

4 - Yeah, you could use the MSD retard box. Cuold also use the dial back timing adjuster thing they have too, which can also be a nice touch for cruise tuning since you can dial timing to find best cruise without reburning the chip. If you're buying something, this might be a little more useful in the long run.

5 - don't know what editing software you're using, i use tunercat. IIRC (i'm at work now so i can't look) the table should be called something like PE fuel adder vs. RPM. Or might be called AE. PE = power enrichment. AE = acceleration enrichment. Means the same thing though. This is also the critical table if you find yourself maxing the MAF. You would then add extra fuel in here past the RPMs where the MAF is maxed to compensate for the fact that the ECM doesn't see the extra airflow.

 

ahhh thats a releif....... i figured it would be hell to drive, even with the inj change....... but as long as it wont hurt it i will drive it to hell and back.....

damn this is gonna rock!!!!!

ahh the lope......... dman i want to go start it just to hear it but i won't... it's tempting, but i will wait.....

thanks for the offer gta383........ if i could get it there i would... but unfortunantly it will be a while.........

i hope i might be able to met some of ya at a event soon....

well better go, and thanks again for taking the time to help out ed..... it means alot to me.....