If I go with a Mini-Ram for my new engine, how will not having EGR affect me? I only have to pass a sniffer test for emissions.

Here's what I've learned so far. Please correct me if I haven't gotten something right. Removing EGR on a stock engine will cause a decrease in performance/mileage. The decrease in performance, if I understand things right, is because combustion temps will be hotter, resulting in detonation, causing the ECM to retard the timing, which results in the lose of performance and mileage.

The second thing is the increase in NOx emissions because of no EGR. From an older post Vader mentioned 3-way cats that can reduce NOx emissions. Also, a cam with extra overlap can do the same function of the EGR (LT4 hot cam is an example).

So my questions are:
1) Wouldn't a custom chip tuned for no EGR restore the performance and mileage lost?
2) Can anyone give me any more information on these 3-way cats? (I will admit, I haven't searhed on that yet...)
3) What effect will extra overlap have on other areas of engine performance/mileage?
4) How clean can you get an engine (450hp 350 or 383) without the EGR? (Passable but barely? Passable with close to stock numbers? etc)

 

Oops... one more thing
5) What else can you do to compensate emissions-wise for not having EGR?

 

EGR doesn't hurt your performance there guy.

EGR only functions at cruise at which point it cools the combustion chamber. Then what you've said is somewhat true, although running without an EGR in a properly operating engine will not cause detonation.

EGR doesn't fucntion at idle or at wide open throttle, therefore you overall performance IE track times, wont change.

1) You must shut off EGR in the chip or you will get an SES light. if you don't want anything changed in the chip, leave the EGR solenoid plugged it an disconnect the vacuum lines. You wont get a code then.........

It will increase your NOx counts. My state doesn't check NOx so I can't tell you how to beat it however if you still have your AIR pump system and a good working CAT and your car is tuned in the chip to not be way lean or rich you should pass no problem. IMHO

2.) Call the exhaust shop?

3.)The extra overlap will make it harder to tune in right at an idle, and give you more power up top. Hotlt4 is a good choice for Miniram. Has pretty good street maners. You'll need to add more timing down low and tweek your fuel tables indefinatly.

4.) You can get your 350 to passable... between barely/stock.... 383 is going to be closer to barely passable.

Most likely what you'll have to do, is take away quite a bit of timing, and put in the stock or hotter thermostat and you should pass. BUT ONLY for emissions purposes. Take out timing and heat your motor up and you'll suffer performance wise. But those things are easy to do.

Find out if your state checks for NOx.... *IE look at your last emissions slip* Before you worry too much about it.

Hope that helps.

 

Also, the EGR doesn't function in cold weather either.

9 out of 10 cars can pass emissions without an EGR (unless there is a visual). You can always make a "dummy" and fashion it to look like the EGR off a L98 Vette.

 

I'm from Vancouver, Canada. We get tested for NOx, HC, and CO here, but no visual inspection.

I'm just concerned about having problems passing AirCare with it. I know a 350 or 383 can be made to pass, I'm just wondering if it's one of those things that'll be a pain year after year or not. If I can't just pop into AirCare any old day and pass without having to prepare the car, I'd like to up front. Just so I know what I'm getting into.

 

Pity you don't live "local" to Kamloops. I could easily reprogram your current eprom that so it would NOT engage your EGR with your current setup. Then you could try it at Air Care to see if it passes the NOx test (all others should be the same). If you have a problem, then you'd know and I'd just set it back on.

If it pases, then you know the lack of an EGR is not going to be an issue.

The type of intake is not going to affect your emissions (excluding the EGR issue). It's generally the cam that causes the problem (CO & HC).

As I recall when I lived in the Lower Mainland, the government is also reducing the permitted readings without regard for what the car was originally rated at. I know the original Air Care readings permitted for my 1991 GTA back in 1991 were identical to California. But around 1998, BC had cut the permitted readings by over half for CO & HC (they didn't do too much to NOx though).

One trick you can do to "double" your time, is to do two tests "back to back". Do the first test just prior to your plates expiring. Then, when you get your new plates, do another test a month later (the car SHOULD pass since it recently did). This second test will permit you to get your plated next year without retesting. So you effectively double your testing period to 2 years.

This is what I use to do when I lived on the lower mainland and I had a car that would only "marginally pass". This way I only had to screw with it every second year. If it makes your feel good, I knew one guy who use to physically change the motor to enable himself to pass.

Damn I am glad I live in Kamloops and don't have fart with that anymore.

 

Thanks for the advice. Neat trick with the back-to-back tests. I doubt my current engine would pass with no EGR at the moment, just ran it through AirCare recently and it was way above average on everything. ( I know part of the reason is there's a chunk of my cat sitting in my muffler. )

How much can prom tuning affect emissions output? I would like to avoid swapping engines to pass. :P

From what people have said, and what I've read, it seems that I can get it (i'm thinking the 450hp 383) to pass, but what I'm not sure of it just how much of a pain it'll be to do it.

 

Mine passes fine with a cat, didn't feel like burning a million chips to get it to pass without the cat.

Just got 20 mpg on a trip from Nashville to Cincy, OH recently.

No problem with a 383, miniram, and passing emissions.

 

You could always install an external EGR setup, something similar to what the 2.8L V6 F-bodys use. I'll be doing this when I convert to a Stealthram. If you have a service manual for your car, look in the 2.8L emmissions section, and you should find some pics of the system I am referring to. Some fabrication would be required, but it would work.

 

I'm not familiar with the 2.6 versions other than the Carbed EGR setup... but if so its not possible.

Well I suppose it could be possible, if you hacked up your Stealth ram.

The EGR gets its gasses from the exhaust and reinserts them into the combustion chamber right? Well on an C.A.R.B.ed equipped car... the cylinder heads have ports for the EGR to collect that comes up into the manifold and then either to the valve.... or to an external valve like the Vette's had. If you have the stealthram, there is now ay to reintroduce the gases into the combustion chamber, short of throwing it into say the throttle body which I think you'll suffer more than you'd achieve.

No holes in the stealth ram to get the gases, and most aftermarket heads don't have EGR provisions.... but good luck!

I said the hell with it, and luckily my state doesn't test for the NOx (egr emissions) so my stealthram is fine!

 

You do what they do on a late 80s Vette as the Aluminum L98 heads have no provision for an EGR either. The Vette has an external EGR (as described with the V6) by drawing the exhaust gas directly from one of the exhaust manifolds. And I know guys (like Kevin91Z) who has done this with SLP headers too. He had (not sure if he still does) aluminum L98 heads on his 350 and incorporated an external EGR system like the Vettes to pass California emissions. (He still used the TPI like intake though).

As for the Miniram, just have it machined to tap into the intake. But as I said before, I know MANY guys that are passing the IM240 dyno emission test (as used in the Lower Mainland of BC) with Minirams. The problem with the Lower Mainland BC test, is the former government arbitrarily lowered the emission levels to
levels even lower than California for an equivalent car (which is the level most cars are designed to pass). The BC government is trying to make people stop driving older cars with V8 engines without any regard for what they originally were designed for.

 

That's what I'm saying though... no holes in the intake. Good luck tapping into the right part of the intake to make it fit. I've seen it done many times with the TPI vette intake too... but that already has the passages built in.

 

Twilight....I'll try and describe the setup as best I can. A pic would be better but unfortunately I don't have one.

It does not matter that the heads and intake base do hot have EGR passages.

You need two holes. A hole somewhere in the exhaust system, and a hole somewhere in the intake plenum.

Run the EGR piping from the hole in the exhaust to the EGR valve.

You'll need some sort of external EGR valve base, which is why I suggested the 2.8 part.

Run a second tube from the EGR valve to the hole in the plenum.

Nothing runs through the heads or intake base. It is all external.

If you wanted to you could just bolt this setup on once a year, and use blockoff plates on the holes for the other 364 days of the year.

 

I agree with Jed, as this is basically what the Vette system is. It's neither magical or a big deal to incorporate. In fact, I am amazed that some of the factory EGR systems even work. Often then tend to put the exhaust gas into the rear of the plenum so the exhaust gas isn't even distributed evenly through out the intake.

The stock TPI system doesn't put the exhaust gas near the fron the plenum so ALL cylinders DON'T get an equal balance of exhaust gas and fresh air. And the LT1 intake has the EGR in the back of the plenum!

But, as I've said before, I seen MANY guys pass the IM240 with a Miniram without any EGR. The key, is if the emission testing has a "visual test". BC doesn't. It jsut has to "blow the number". It's just that BC has arbitrarily lowered the number lower than anywhere else.

 

Glenn, the guys you know who pass without the EGR, can you give me some idea of the numbers they're getting compared to average and max readings?

 

Do a search on "emissions" on the DIY Prom Board. Tim Siford (Traxion) made his Miniram 350 with a fairly radical cam. HC/CO were the problem - not NOx. Through a lot of tuning (and cats), he was able to make it pass Maryland's IM240 dyno test...which is what we use in BC.

For NOx, I'd just richen the mixture if NOx was a problem. But I don't recall Tim having to richen the mixture - he had to lean his mixture to reduce his HC/CO. That is why I don't think NOx was a problem.

Also, there have been a number of guys running the LT4 Hot Cam that were able to make it pass the IM240.

But do a search on "emission" on the DIY Prom Board.

Again, if you want to buy a second Memcal for your car and drive up to Kamloops, I'd be happy to modify it to run without an EGR (and not trigger an SES code). Then just drive through a testing center and see what happens. If you fail, then you know your answer and just install your original memcal to pass.

If you pass, then you can look at a Miniram...then the next question will be "how wicked of a cam can you run and still pass".

I really suggest getting into eprom burning at that point as you can do some "tricks" to pass (though you wouldn't want to drive around like that). But, you just pull the "emission memcal" for emission testing, and then put your "hi-perf memcal" so you can pollute good like a car should.

But I should caution you, there are limits of what you can do in the eprom to pass emissions.

 

I appreciate the offer to do a memcal with no EGR Glenn. I'm not sure if it'd do any good at the moment. My car as it is was running really high numbers when I tested it recently (it passed though). And when I do get the MiniRam, it'll be sitting on top of a whole new motor. This will likely happen after next summer as well. This winter I want to start learning prom burning myself. (Taking your advice and starting with a stock engine.)