can this be done

hit 12's useing TPI ( bigger base and runners ) and do it with nooo power adders ? Oh yeah .....and the stock heads ( ported all to hell )



anyone have a setup similar to this ......... running 12's. either useing the 081 ...or 083 ....or 113 casteings( aluminum ...I know )


i was thinking ....that if I got my 081 's ported all to hell ....they might flow enough to get a car into the 12's...... just a matter of cam selection.

Any input?

 

Not yet. But I am hoping to. Stock base, siamesed and ported all to hell, stock heads similarly ported all to hell, Hot Cam and headers. I'll let you know.

 

DUDE ! thats a sweet time on ya there ..... I am hopeing to just dip into the 13's with my mods ( stock tires stilll )



...yeah man ...let me know how she works out

 

I am trying to run 12's with a LTR, stock untouched and never removed heads, stock cam and bottom end.

It will be done soon...

 

What does LTR stand for?

I'm hoping to hit 12's with a 383, ported L98 heads and heavily ported TPI setup

-Corey

 

Yes, this can be done.

Tim

 

I also believe that 12's are possible.



rippen-LTR (long tube runners)

 

Care to elaborate?

 

My goal is to run 12's with the stock long block L98 in my 1989 Formula 350. The car and engine have 91,000 miles. The only thing I have removed is the A/C. I am not gutting the car to run a number. It has power windows, locks, mirrors and is a hardtop.

All mods are simple bolt ons. My complete mid list is listed here:
www.cardomain.com/id/formul8

I believe the L98 with a long tube runner intake is a seriously underrated motor. It is easy to jump on the LS1 bandwagon, but I have owned this car for nearly 10 years. I want to max out the motor itself before rebuilding it. When the motor finally dies, then it will be pulled. Until then, it gets wringed to the fullest.

So far my best is a 13.56@100.50. This was before headers and with skinnies in front. With slicks/skinnies, some major PROM tuning, 1.6rr's and a tubular torque arm, the car is capable of high 12's. The 1/8mile times are a couple tenths faster than the average LS1 car, but it falls on its face after that. I blame this on the gear spacing in the 700R4 trans. The T56 should clear this up and keep the motor at full boil the big end of the track.

 

If you put a T56 on it then you'll have a harder time hitting 12's. The LTR with stock heads isn't going to hit 12's based on horespower. It's going to do it based on torque. That means you are going to need a really really really good 60ft time. You're not going to get that with a T56. You'll end up running slower.

Tim

 

I beg to differ and will try and prove this wrong. Do not forget the T56 weighs much less than the 700R4 and also does not have to turn the heavy torqe converter. I will have more control off the line and can launch the motor right before the torque curve. The first gear in the 700R4 is very numerically high and winds the motor out too fast. There is a trade off there, but the advantage is not running out of steam after 2nd gear.

 

Good luck with your project. Keep us posted please.

I really don't think there is any major weight savings in a T56 though. The flywheel and clutch will weigh as much or more than a small converter and although I never weighed the one in my wife's car when it was out, I know it isn't very light. It will use less power to turn than your auto though.

 

I'm talking about real world vs theory. The 700R4 gearing sucks. I don't debate that. I debate that you are going to hit 12's with a stock longblock using a T56. You have a better chance with a 700R4. You can get a better 60ft time with the 700R4. If you keep the stock longblock then the car is going to hit 12's based on torque. You're going to need the best 60ft possible in order to do that. The 700R4 will 60ft much better on sticky tires. Also don't forget that you are going to lose time switching gears. Everybody I know who has gone from manual to an automatic for 1/4 mile racing has decreased their 1/4 mile times. Everybody I know who has gone from an automatic to a manual has increased their 1/4 mile times.

... don't forget that you are going to shatter your rearend if you run the T56 and try to REALLY launch hard. I'm talking dumping the clutch at 4 grand.

I've seen all of this too many times to tell you. I'd bet any amount of money anytime, anywhere. I'll be a rich man. Like I said, I have too much personal experience with regard to this. Take a 700R4 with a 3000 stall and it will crush the T56 all day long with regard to 60ft times on a stock longblock. Remember, each 0.1 in 60ft is going to give you 0.15 in the 1/4.

Tim

 

Sweeet guys ..... 12's with stock heads ( stock castings anyhow ) no nitro .....no charger ..... it can be done ! Well thats a good thing to know . SO seeing how the LTR set up is RPM limited ..... I am gathering from this my focus should be on torque ....... I was looknig at it all wrong . My approach was going to be to trade off some of the bottem end power ( via bigger intake track .....bigger valves.... and oversized exaust ..... 1 3/4 headers ...3 " exaust ) , and by doing this ..... be able to get off the line easier ..... and make the power at more mid to high range vs . low to mid that the LTR setup is famous for .

So I am thinking a small itake port volume ( 170 -180cc ) with carzy flow in the low lift numbers ........ and a cam with non to crazy lift number .....but enough duration ( not sure on this ......not good at picking cams ) . Or I could toooootally be out to lunch .....and need to keep reading




.....and as in my sig .....I'd be running a 5 speed

 

Traxion,

You a are missing my point. The 60ft is not a problem. The car has the capability to pull 1.7's on slicks. I launche the car just off idle.

The problem I have is losing steam after the 1/8th mile mark. The gear spacing when it hits 3rd just falls completely flat. The T56 has much better 3rd gear ration for how my car is set up to keep it at a full boil the big end of the track.

The time between shifts is remedied by powershifting. I don't do no "Granny shifts"!

The decision to install a T56 is more for autocross and road racing than drag racing. If it was a drag only car, I would keep the 700R4.

 

The car isn't falling flat due to gear spacing. Hear me out because you are missing a couple things here.

1) The EPROM has a mandatory TCC lockup at 70-something mph. This makes the car feel like it's falling flat on its face. Stock LTR setups tend not to like this mandatory lockup.

2) The gearing problem with the 700R4 has nothing to do with 2-3. The gearing problem is all in the 1-2 shift. Do some research and lookup the stock gear ratios of automatic trannys. The 700's 1-2 shift is the bad gearing. The 2-3 shift is fine.

T56 is great for AutoX and Road Racing and is a much better choice than the 700. I understand what you are saying and that alone is a great reason to swap. I just wanted to make it clear that you are not going to run faster with a T56. I understand why you think you will ... but you won't.

No matter how fast you shift you will never be able to shift as fast as a racing automatic ... i.e. a 700 with good line pressure and a shift kit.

Tim

 

Yeah...right they told me that for years as I steadily proved them wrong
When my '69 had the stock chassis I ran: 10.01-10.03-10.02-back-to-back and they said you can't do that with a 4spd.

When I back halfed the car I ran: 9.69-9.69-9.69 and......they said I couldn't do that either. (with a 4 spd.)

Well maybe some can't.....but that doesn't mean all of us

 

We're not talking about your '69 Don. We're talking about a thirdgen with a 10-bolt rearend. Furthermore, we're talking about running 12's with a stock longblock. Your point is totally out of context.

Tim

 

1) My converter is a 10" 2500 stall non-lockup. The trans was modified to use one. This is not the problem.

2) It has a Trans-Go shift kit and 1-2 shifts are bordering on violent at WOT.

I believe the trans will help at least 2/10 by saving rotating weight off the driveline, weight off the car itself and better gearing.

I do not see how your theory works unless I miss a shift.

Also, my car has a 9bolt rear and is pretty light for a Formula. I plan of adding a fiberglass repro Formula hood and replacement rear spoiler witch will shave at least 65lbs more off the car.

 

Well, by all means, go ahead with your 6 speed swap. People are on this forum to help point out what works and what doesn't. Everybody knows the fun of a 5 or 6 speed trans, but they usually do not run a faster et. People swap in a manual for the ability to pick any gear at any time, which is perfect for road racing. Furthermore, people run manual transmissions for the ability to leave the line at any rpm they'd like. The trans may or may not be lighter, but it will rob less power than an automatic would. Your actual performance gain at the drag strip? You will run a slower et, with maybe a mph or two extra on your trap speed. I personally swapped out a manual for a 700r4 with a stall convertor and cut 2/10ths off my 60' time. My trap speed is not impressive, but my 60 footer is pretty good. Ultimately, it sounds as though you have made up your mind about the swap. I know you'll enjoy the extra overdrive that the 6-speed will give you, but your 1/4 mile will suffer slightly. We are people who have done, or undone, what you are attempting. People ask questions here so that they may receive real world advice in return. Enjoy your decision either way.

 

I forgot to mention that i pull 1.6 60 footers with drag radials.

 

Amen gixxer9. The T56 is awesome. It's more fun and more useful for AutoX and Road Racing. But, for 1/4 time when considering a stock TPI longblock the 700 with a high stall is the best choice for the fastest 1/4 time. I have no doubt that the T56 would produce a higher MPH. But, you'll run a slower ET than with the high stalled 700. I can't emphasize enough that this post is about 12s quarter mile times on a stock longblock. That means using the TPIs torque to your advantage which means you HAVE TO cut the best 60ft possible. You're going to get that with the 700R4 ... not with the T56. Keep the original title of this post in mind!

Tim

 

12s with ported heads (GM 081, 083, 113) and cam is how I read 1st post. That should be easy to do 12s.

I just ran 8.60 in the 8th on the 1 run of 8 that I didn't spin with street tires. stock 3.27 rear, 700r4, torque converter, L98 cam, block (193Kmiles), 083 heads with minor bowl blend only (no valve job, stock valves, etc.), Accel base untouched, ported plenum, Accel runners with 1 inch of siamezing.
That means I'm roughly a half second from 12s in the qtr. That is only a few simple mods away.

 

I can fully appreciate why you guys dislike that 1-2 gear spread in the 700-R4's. Why isn't a swap to 200R4's more popular with you guys? Is the manual swap just an obvious choice if you are pitching the 700-R4?

 

Well , I am gathering from this ......some people are close ......but it still hasn't been done .


Okay , it seems to me that ....with my ported base and runners ( albeit mild porting .....moreso ...smoothing) this intake and head combo ....can achieve my 12 second goals ........

.....now cam selection .....I have the ZZ4 ( good or bad ......isn;t the issue ....) I need to think for the future .What I am curious about is ... I need a cam in the range of 1500-5500 ish .....but I am at a loss on which values should I be looking for ....... a higher duration ..... higher lift ...... go custom grind with fast ramp rates ..... big LSA or short . What i have seen on LTR cars ( and what I have read on the net ) is that there really isn't a generic cam out there that compliments the LTR setup . I am aware that searching for HP over the 5500 mark ( even with the slightly worked base and runners ) is grim at best . SO ...I will take advantage this systems attributes TORQUE on the low to mid I suppose.

...... maybe I should just put in some crazy towing cam ......

 

What you're looking for is a cam similar to the ZZ-9 cam from TPIS. those cams have short duration, lift aroun .500, and a LSA of 112 (I think). That cam (or one like it) will work very well with a LTR setup.

 

I already have the ZZ4

.474/.510 @ .500 208/221 duration 112LSA


..... so ....am I to assume I can hit 12's with a ZZ4 cam .....and ported stock heads ????? Gawdddd that would be sweet if I could.


if not .....which stat .....would need to be increased/decreased to accomidate my needs
...BTW I will be running a 10:1 c/r and 3.73 gears

thanx again all for the input here ...I am learning

 

I was in the running for a shot at 12s a year or so back running a best of 13.521 on a 1.76 60ft(bolt ons only +2k stall). This was through manifolds, stock TPI/heads/rear and all at a race weight of 3688lbs(w.driver) so it's no light weight. I was all set to get a little more serious with the car and throw some $ at it but a layoff side tracked me and the car has been put off for a while. As soon as I find my way clear I have a few tuning issues to deal with then I'll take her out again and see where she is but I'm not expecting alot since the car has mostly sat all this time.

 

Thanks for the compliment on the E/T. I am just about ready to fire it up. I should be running by Friday and I am hoping to get it dynoed within the next week.

Have a good one,
Charlie

 

well with all of this 350 talk, how about for us 305 guys? wonder what itll take to get us into the 12's? ive looked around and not to many people have much to say about this. just wondering if it can be done pretty easily or not?

 

start a new 305 12 second thread






...... I am still curious how to put enough cam in it while still haveing all the usable power inside of 5500 rpm . My springs in my heads will support .570 lift ......so that ain't a problem , but the 5500 ( LTR intake set up ) limit is going to limit my choices I am sure ......

 

Consider the LPE 74211 camshaft.

It also depends on how well you port your heads.
I plan to rebuild my 350 short block, and will be using the LPE 74219 camshaft.

 

This has been discussed ALOT. Just do a search.

 

thanx guys , I am going to search more .......... I keep getting alot of the power adder stuff ......


smithtc ....thanx for the recomendation ...... I am just trying to get a feal for how far I have to go ....to achieve this




a searching I will go
thanx again guys

 

I'm running a LPE 74211 cam and L-98 heads (modified) among other things. Only been to the track once, and that was on skinny street tires. Also had onboard abt 60 lbs of unnecessary stuff + a full tank of fuel.

60'= 2.31 secs
1/4= 14.5 @ 95 Mph

I was expecting better, but my tires are really holding me back.
I'm unable to use full throttle until after the 1-2 shift.

The last time I installed my runners, I used much more sealant than was needed (chasing vacuum leak). I'm sure some oozed into the flow path and is slowing me a little on the top end.

With some intake clean-up, weight loss, more spark tuning, and some traction, I'm hoping to get into the upper 12's. We'll see.

 

LPE 74211 211/219 .530/560 w/ 1.6 112 LSA ( 497/ 525 w/ 1.5)

thats what I got for that cam ........

or
LPE 74219 219/219 .560/.560 w 1.6 roickers 112 LSA( 525w/1.5)


.... the second one appears to me to maybe be a bad choice ...... due to work ( so I have read ) needed on the exaust side ...... I am thinknig a single pattern cam is a bad idea
feal free to hack that theory up . The trends I am seeing in flow numbers are .....chevy heads are weak on the exaust side ..... so I am assumeing that I would want a dual pattern camshaft ..... favoring the exaust a little ....maybe even throw a 1.6 rocker on the exaust side ( if I can't find a grind to accomidate that )

... am I on the right track here ?

 

I finished putting it together and had the Y pipe made today. It is on the street and running better than ever I don't know how much faster it is except LOTS. It pulls to 6500 rpm very quickly
I am lovbing the new RPM it can use.

I will post dyno and track times when I get them.
Later,
Charlie

 

Definately possible.... I was running 13.60s with this....

-stock L98 longblock
-only additions were LT4 hotcam, ZZ9 valve springs, gasket matched heads, siamesed stock intake base
-stock runners
-stock TB
-K&N, MSD, longtube headers w/ cutouts
-t56/4.10s/nittos

*And I was running the LT4 hotcam in a SD TPI car on a stock chip! I think with tuning and a good launch I would have gotten very low 13s and possibly 12s with weather. Basically I had full exhaust, cam, free mods, ignition and gears. This motor also made 275RWHP/330RWTQ.

 

Wow, sorry for dredging up an old thread, but I was searching for something else and this looked interesting:

Agreed for the most part… mostly that people don't see potential where there is some. I hate my L98 car compared to my old crossfire car, but it can be made to run like any other.

Huh… my best so far in my 87 Formula 350 (only real mods are SLP cat back, SLP cold air intake, koni shocks/struts, eibach springs and assorted free mods/tweaks, 3710# weighed the next morning with me in it, 310#) was a 13.59@99.98mph. This was on original, 16y/o tires (I bought it from a guy that had the wheels and tires stored in the attic).

Stock for stock I'd go with the T56. I've run 1.71 60's in my '97 WS6 M6 on radials and the best that I can do with the 700r4 in my '87 Formula is a 1.86 on radials. I am not exactly traction limited in either case, I have tried Greg W's DR's (275 50 15's, the big honking oddballs) which after a decent burnout I wasn't able to spin and I actually ran slower 60's in the '87. The T56 does exactly what you tell it to, when you tell it to do it. The 700 does what it feels like and you have to telephone it directions what seems like a week ahead of time. I've since put a Transgo in it and found that I've got PERFECT shifts experimenting on the street but it hangs up every time on the 1-2 at the track.

No arguments there… I don't know if you remember my bitching about my '97 when I was running that regularly, but I was able to leave the line most nights "driving" it out at between 4200 and 5200rpm, and I managed to break 7 rears (6 sets of gears and 1 axle) in 2 years.

I've got a BW 9 bolt in the formula, and I managed to kill the posi in that 3x now. I bought it with it half dead, rebuilt it, wasted it in 34 passes, rebuilt it again and then 23passes later the case in the posi split. Instead of a new one I welded it up making it a spool… all is happy now.

an auto with a good 3000rpm or greater converter becomes a killer drag car, but at that point it's just as good as the T56 is with a good driver.

There is some seemingly unexplainable weirdness with LPE cams. They seem to make the power of much larger cams with different timing events then what they are advertised as being. I've never been able to make sense of how the 219/219 seems to act a lot like a 224/230/112 CC XE cam at the track.

 

Huh, one more thought, no one has really run a 12 with a stock, L98 long block?

I'm convinced I could pull it off by adding headers and maybe a converter (I might have to spring for a transmission that acts correctly also) with some sticky tires. I could probably use some help with tuning also, right now I'm running a stock chip but have found that the thing runs fastest with 54psi fuel pressure, a ported maf and 0* timing, which makes it act rather odd on the street (belching black, sooty exhaust and trying to idle at what looks like less then 500rpm).

What do I get if I do it?

Really, I was dumping that thought and am curious to see what this combination (stock long block) will do with a power adder (holset turbo off of a Cummins 6CT that was in a freightliner wrecker) before I wear out the original engine, but I've considered postponing that insanity 'till after running some better times "stock" if I could figure out how to do it without hearing any more "that's BS, you didn't run those times with a stock L98."

 

I've already done some mild bowl blends to the heads...but otherwise stock I'm going to see how quick I can get. My 700r4 shifts are getting out of hand of late, so some new "governors" for WOT shift control, and new valve springs and a new converter and I hope to be there. Think I have decided to go with a Vigilante 3600...and manually lock it after the 2-3 shift. Also planning to remove A/C and sound deadener.

Got some 083 heads ported w/ 1.6 rr ready to go also.

Hell, if I can get a couple of tenths more in time and just hold on, then I've got it.
Lots of little tricks left too, like skinnies, sway bar, alternator disconnected, etc.

 

this thread has got my interest all i want is out of the 14s first

looks like i need a fuel pressure regulator and bump the pressure up, also i would of thought more timing would be better but u went less 83 Crossfire TA?

i think even in my form now i just need drag radials and i will see 13.8s at maybe close to 99 mph


first gear is killer in my car and i cant use its full potential

 

Man, you're right by me… go to Capitol with me a few times and we'll have you running 13's (or I'll run a 13 with you're car if you let me). From what you've got listed on your cardomain site I'd guess that the car should be capable of low 13's properly tuned.

 

low 13s if u say so

 

and marked for the future

 

This post has got me thinking a lot...

I know I have a Mustang but knowing what I know and have learned by hanging around with and racing Mustangs, I think it is extremely possible to do with stock heads (not ported), cam, and shortblock.

Employ the perfect suspension, a stout rear, intake (help the car breather), exhaust, and I would go with a Tremec, for the ease of hard launches, and better for choosing to change shift points. Couple this with a lighter platform (I was told a Formula 350) and even remove some weight (its there, just have to go get it) and I think it is extremely possible.

I would love to try this as I am almost certain it cane be done, I just have to get the Mustang where I want it.

I just think it hasent been done because there arent a lot of drag racers with Fbodies, who are building for this goal. Just get a few and someone will do it!

 

What kind of mustang do you have that's heavier then a formula?

 

I didnt mean lighter than the Mustang, I meant lighter compared to the Camaros. My car weighs about 3300 lbs, which is lighter than most Fbodies I have ever encountered.

I was told a low option Formula 350 would be the lightest out of the Fbody line (with 350s that is) to try this with!

 

I'm building a car for a buddy of mine that should hit a high 12 with stock heads / intake.

91 RS
stock iron L98 heads - valve job and upgraded springs
355 ci. 10:1
.488 / .495, 212/218, 112 comp cam
stock lightly ported base
stock runners
ported plenum
Holley AFPR
CAI
52mm TB
24lb SVO's
hooker shorty's / mandrel y-pipe, mufflex cat back
DIY-PROM
stock 700r4 s-10 convertor
3:42 gears
nitto drag's on stock 16's

The above is a VERY simple combination that should hit a high 12. I'll let you guys know what it runs when I'm finished with it.

 

What about this combo, me and Cobra Killer discussed:
-Formula 350
-stock bottem end/heads
-cam retarded 4 degrees
-1.6 rockers
-ported plenum and runners/AFPR
-52mm TB
-pulleys
-1 3/4 shorties
-3" Y pipe
-3" catback
-Either T56 (1993) or Gforce T5/Pro 5.0 shifter
-AL flywheel
-SPEC clutch
-3.42s
-ET Streets
-Suspension

I think this with some weight removed will go a 12.9 if not better!

Similar to your combo 1bad91Z, only id go stick for fun and if the rear holds, some great 60' times.