Hey guys I am new to the board and I need your help!

I started out with converting from a carb to a TPI intake on my engine. Its in a 1986 mote carlo ss. I could not find a GM harness and ECM so I got a edlebrock PCM and wiring harness (speed density system). It ran like a bat out of h*ll. The down side was that it ran that way only at heavy to wide open throttle. At idle, take off and deceleration to a stop-the engine experienced many problems trying to run.

I now have the ECM and harness on my engine that came off of a 89 camaro( mass air flow system). It has a hard time starting and at idle. Coming up to a stop sign or coasting it dies. Anything over 2k rpm it runs great. There is no MIL on and no codes stored. What do you think could be the problem? Between the two systems they both act similar.

Here are some of the engine specs:
350 CI
10.6:1 compression ratio
224° intake, 230° exhuast @ .050
.508 intake .512 exhuast lifts
full roller rockers
sportman II heads ported & polished
with 2.02 intake valves 1.6 exhuast valves
headers with dual exhuast
stock TPI throttle body
28 lbs injectors

Please ask any question because I may have left something out. Any help is appreciated!

Matthew

 

well the first thing is the injectors are too big for that kind of set up 24lb should be just fine, and second you need a chip to run your set up, you can do a mail order chip but beware or check the diy section and do your own, the car does not have the right program thats y it runs messed up my best advice is get a painless system unless you are happy with the harness you have now, i have a grand prix with a tpi with simmilar specs just a bit lower compression only like .2 i used the painless harness and it was the cleanest and easiest to use

 

What is the stock injector for a 350 rated at?

I am using those injectors because that is what edlebrock recommended for the setup...

I am still new to the website and have not mastered how to navigate through it.

Can you provide a link?

From what I have heard buying all the stuff to burn a new chip is expensive. Although the "blank chips cost $8, does anyone on this website program these and sell them?

Thanks,
Matthew

 

When I first got the wiring harness I noticed it had some broken connections at the MAF relay, Burn off relay and the fuel pump relay. So I repaired them prior to installing it on my engine. I had a wiring diagram and replaced the conectors and relays with some ISO relays.

Today, I found out that the IP wiring harness for the MCSS did not have the serial data line in the correct location on the ALCL connector. After I rewired that I looked on the data displayed on the scantool.

The first problem was a bad O2 sensor. I installed the new sensor and the engine began to run better. After a few minutes the ecm started learning what was going on.

The next problem was low voltage at the TPS. That was simply out of adjustment.

After that fix the engine ran for about ten minutes and some codes started appearing. It just so happened to be codes 33,36 & 54. Which related to the MAF relay, Burn off relay and the fuel pump relay. I had to do some hunting on all data and found out that the wiring diagram that I had from an old manual was drawn wrong.

So I had to re-pin the relay sockets. It took a while and I was not happy. You would think that the publisher of the manual would have caught the mistakes on the wiring diagram.

Now that I have those things fixed the MIL is on but the engine runs pretty nice. I will not have access to the scan tool agian, until tomorrow. Then I can see what is going on now.

I'll keep you posted.


Matthew

 

For a 350 it is 22lb.

Here is the DIY PROM section

https://www.thirdgen.org/techbb2/for...?s=&forumid=16

I got into DIY chips for about 300 excluding the laptop (had that allready). On the prom board there are excellent resources on where to get stuff.

 

Today I connected the scantool and the ECM had no stored codes. After futher investigation I found that on the monte carlo ss IP harness uses a lamp driver ( MIL) . I removed that and rewired the IP harness for the ECM correctly. That solved the problem.

Although at idle the engine surges from 500 rpm to 1000 rpm. I am guessing the lobe seperation is causing the ECM to hunt. I think I can put up with it for a while.

Would it be better to get a hypertech chip or have some one program me one?

Thanks for the help!

Matthew

 

I had the same problem with the lamp driver in my 82 ELky. As far as the chip is concerned I and others would stay away from the hypertech and try to get someone locally to program you one if you don't want to tackle it yourself.

 

Why do you say you would stay away from the hypertech chips?

I noticed in your info you say that your looking for a 4L80E. That trans is a heavy duty tranny that will actually require more hp to turn it. Just like the turbo 400 compared to the 350 turbo. If I were you I would get a 700R4 (4L60). If you get any trans with the "E" code you will need something to control the shifts...

I have a couple of 4L60's but you are a good distance from IL. I am still running the 200R4 but I installed the extra clutches, shift kit and added a higher stall convertor.

Matthew

 

First: Power may actually go down with a hypertech chip because they cannot and do not program a chip for your application. You will be better off buying a 30$ vet chip (which is what i did for about a year because the hyperchip i had ran crappy) Untill prgramming my own(Infinitely better than the vet chip).

Second: as for the tranny issue you brought up it is hard to make a 4L60 handle the engine he is building. also the ratios on the 4l60 are garbage because of the first gear being so low. and we are both working on rigging up a cheap control unit (for example an old gm computer out of a vehicle with the E option).

Also E (in 4L80-E) is worth its weight in gold, I am so tired of my TH-400 shifting early. I am shure Eric wants control of his shifts too.

 

Do you still have the vet chip? Obivously you guys know more about the programing and all. I looked at the data on the scan tool and the id for the prom I have is 8201, what can you tell me from this?

Is it possible that you could set me up with a prom that would be configured to my engine combo? (I guess it okay to ask such a thing on this forum. If not I am sorry) Shoot me an email to lawrence_1md@yahoo.com

As far as the electronic shifting are you wanting a module to control the shift points or a manual setup?

Thanks
Matthew

 

They'll likely end up using a junkyard truck PCM with all the fuel and spark code taken out of it. That will allow full programmability of the shift points through a laptop and it'll run independently of the engine ECM if that's what they want. Much better than letting the trans shift when it wants, or trying to get it right "by feel" manually.

There has been some discussion of this on the DIY-PROM board.


Anyway, your best bet for chip-work is in learning to do it yourself. You can get started for a couple hundred bucks and then you'll be able to tune the engine the way YOU want it, and spend as much time as it takes to get every last ounce of power and driveability out of it. All it takes is a good working knowledge of EFI, and lots of reading and trying things. Much better than hoping some guy in another state got it close to what it needs to be.

 

BINGO!!!

Correct on all assumtions

(lawrence) you may be able to get one of these guys with a programmer to program YOUR program your chip and work one of our postal services. (However http://www.moates.net/index2.html has all the resources for programmig and buying chips on top of that it doesn't cost much for what you gain from buying a programmer and acouple of chips)

Moates main page is http://www.moates.net/

and yea i still have the vet chip but I keep it as a redundant measure(which is a pain in the rear because I don't have a working vats module and have to manually create the signal).

here is my solution for mounting an EEPROM on my computer I like it better than Moates version but it does require destroying a chip

 

Do you have a vats module hooked up? If so I have all the pellet codes. That way you can simulate a key for the module. The bad part is that there is 15 different selections and each time you select the wrong resistance the theft deterant sets a timer for 4 minutes. Then after that you can try it agian. The signal that goes to the PCM from the vats module is a digital signal, your pretty good if you can tap the same signal continueously over and over.
Mathew

 

At first he had the hypertech(86 model year) which did not have vats, then he got the corvette chip(89 model year) which after that it wouldn't start (no injector pulse) so we look for info and discovered what the ecm needed for a signal from the vats system. Then for a period of 2-3 months it was a tap to start vehicle(which I never could get it to start) until we got a module from a salvage yard(it was fun pulling that out of the car, I'm not going to state location for security reasons) another 4-5 months go by then one summer afternoon it would not start, module was not working so we decided to find and construct a circuit that would make the signal for the ecm untill we got into prom burning and removed vats from the chip.

Mods, if this is too technical for security reasons edit at will or let me know.

 

Rock On!

Sounds like what I went through when working on a newer camaro. The previous owner had a remote start and a security system put on the camaro then later sold the car without the remotes. The security system would often activate and leave the newest owner stranded. It took me 4 days removing the aftermarket alarm system. I easily figured out the key code and bypassed the ignition switch. I thought this fixed the problem but everyonce in a while it would not start. After another day of troubleshooting and hunting down every wire for the starting system I figured out that the P/N switch in the console was partially connected. Sometimes it would make connection and allow it to run and other times it was a no-go.

Making a circuit that produces the same signal is pretty simple once you know what it requires. Thats why gm went to the new system with the transmiter in the key. Every time the key is cycled the PCM and transmitter "talks" and then randomly changes to the new code.

As far as the corvette prom, is that available at the dealership? Do you know where I can get info for the prom id # 8201? I am curious to see what it really cam from.

Thanks,
Matthew

 

I don't remember the ID# for the chip but you can order one from any GM distributor.

Eric has the timeframe slightly wrong i had to tapstart my vehicle for about a year and a half (this requires good arcade style button pressing inorder to make the appropriate signal to satisfy the vats requirement)

However if you make a chip it is as easy as turning off VATS in the code. Which is what i eventually did to my TPI setup.

 

Sorry for keeping this thread so long.

I looked around for that prom id and I found that the prom is for a 87 camaro with a 350, auto trans, 3.27 gear ratio and of course federal emissions.

If you can find the part number or any info for the corvette prom please send it my way.

One thing that I did notice is that when I am driving down the road and give it WOT there is a brief puff of smoke that is a blue-ish gray color. The engine does not heistate or stutter, it just hauls bootie. What do think this could be?


Thanks,
Matthew

 

I just looked up the chip number and it is as follows which is not a real difference from the 87 one you have.

89 5.7-8 A/Trans (MD8), Fed, 3.27(GW6) 16150500.

The corvette reference was to one of our first proms that we modified while getting a baseline to start tuning. It has alot more timing due to the corvette having aluminum heads instead of iron heads as well as some minor fueling changes.

Again I would invest in the equipment and do it yourself, you will be pleased with the result when you are done with it.

 

Lucky day!, I was just going though my suff and figured this would help you on the wiring side of things.

http://www.wideopenwest.com/~Johnand...to 730 TPI.pdf

full schematic of my 86' to 7730 TPI setup.
has alot of sensor and connector p/n's too.

OOPS, I think you have a 165 ecm? This stuf is for the 730 SD setup.
Oh well, it's there if you need it to reference the instrument panel wiring.

 

lawrence_1md, smell your oil to see if it has a gas odor to it, with those injectors & your chip being off you may be over fueling some & diluting the oil to the point some is getting by the rings or valve seals.
something else to think about on the chip, for alittle more than what you would spend on a custom chip you can do your own & make changes to it to fit anything you may do to your car later on, plus if you already have a laptop you can data log.
you mentioned all data, you work at a shop?


"i had to tap start my vehicle " .. thats funny.
i did the same thing for about a year with my car.

i just ordered the stuff from Craig last week, but im keeping VATS in mine.

 

JP86SS- I've got the wiring problems solved. Thanks. I am running the 165 ECM.

DENN_SHAH- Well lets just say that right now I have acess to all data. I am not working at a shop right now. It would be nice though because I could go into the parts room and order another prom.

I did an oil change today and the oil looked and smelled normal. I think during startup and idle, it is rich but during driving the O2 leans it out. The reading at the O2 sensor during idle is .7mV, if I remember right .5mV is the ideal area.

I have been reading all the stuff on moates website. It looks like I need about $100 of stuff to do the programing. I just dont know enough about how the program characteristics go. (if that makes sense)


Matthew

 

I started last August with the total rewire of my Monte from an Accel DFI and didn't have a clue!
It's not that hard, it just takes some investigation and reading.
The rough tuning is pretty easy it's only when you start getting into the little things to make it really perfect that takes the extra effort. You'll have it running as good if not better than if you bought a chip. Only you won't be able to blame the "other guy" if it's not perfect. You'll just have to go out for another drive.
Oh the pain, the pain...
I'm a little biased but I'd recommend burning your own.

Although maybe you should buy a chip, from the sig you have I might be able to beat you then if we happen to meet at a light. LOL, J/K

Jp

 

I drove my car over 20 miles and the idle problem went away!

I am now working on the VSS. Since the 200R4 did not have a VSS I need some for of an adapter.

I have made a reluctor wheel that I am going to mount on the yoke of the axle and a bracket for the VSS to mount on. The only problem will be that the prom I have is configured for a 3.42 gear.

Matthew

 

Glad to hear you are getting it to work.

 

New problem!

Yesterday I came up to a stop sign and the engine stalled.

There is a orange wire ( its about 10 awg) that is located on the passenger side. It has a pigtal on it supplys battery voltage to everything. I put a fuse on that wire to be safe.

The problem is that the fuse keeps poping. How much amperage should this wire carry? A 30 amp fuse pops after a few seconds of the engine running.

Any clues?

Matthew

 

That might be for a power accessory like pwr windows, locks or pwr seat. Should be vcomming from the upper left in the fuse block somewhere.
I don't believe it is part of the engine managment. IIRC that orange wire is only a 16 awg for the ECM memory power..
30A shorting is not good. Might try pulling the connectors at each of the power accys and see if the problem goes away. Or use a Ohm meter and see when the ground path goes away with something unplugged.

 

Below is a wiring diagram of the MAF system. In orange is the circuit I believe you are talking about. I would check the connection to the fuel pump(if external) to verify it is not loose. My friend(C20T/A) had a similar problem while coming down my street. It turned out that the wire to the fuel pump was so loose that it was creating a huge current draw and blowing the fuse during the 2 second pump prime. Also check the wiring for the MAF power and burn-off relays as they also feed from that source.

 

Good catch eric, I forgot that fuel pump feed was orange
that's what happens when you go off memory.
jp

 

The fuel pump is an external pump. I check the current draw of the fuel pump and it was 9 amps. I am not sure what the spec is for it. Thats anohter thing I'll have to check. I will lift the rearend up tomorrow and check the connections.

For a temperary fix I disconnected terminal "A" from the fuel pump relay. I took that wire and connected it to another relay termnial 86. Teminal 85 to ground and terminal 30 to a fused 12v and then disconnected the tan/white wire (to the fuel pump) and connected it to terminal 87. This way the rest of the system can still operate from the orange wire.

The fuse did not pop this time... I've got some hunting to do.

Thanks for the help!
Matthew

 

I checked the connection at the fuel pump. It was tight. I decided to clean the terminals anyway. The current draw went down to 4 amps.

Hopefully that was the problem. I put the fuel pump wiring back to the stock configuration.

Matthew

 

Do you have a vacuum diagram as detailed such as this, for a 89 Formula 350 TPI?

 

I will look for the vacuum diagrams. I am sure I can get one. Are you looking for the Emission stuff ( canister, a.i.r. system)? Or just all of it?

Matthew

 

I'm having a similar problem with my 86iroc. The only difference is my inst guage fuse blows under accel and once I shut car off it wont start . Ihave to jump starter. Sometimes at stoplights kills and wont start. Need help.

 

Stock wiring harness tpi305. Any help would be awesome.

 

http://home.hot.rr.com/importtech/misc/89TPI.doc

 

HOT68- thats the same vacuum diagram I have. Its for all TPI from 86-89.

nosaj 86irocz- The faster you go the more fuel the engine needs which makes the fuel pump work harder. I would check the connection on the fuel pump. For your iroc is it all stock? I mean did the car orignally come equipted with the TPI?

Matthew

 

Yes stock 305 tpi . Only mods are exhaust and trans rebuild.O2 sensor replaced with exhaust. I'm getting lean exhaust code and egr. Both are fine. ?

 

I was doing a service on my car and just so happened to see something. A spot on the insulation was rubbed down to the bare wire. Guess what wire it was?

Yeap the fuel pump wire. This is what what causing the fuse to pop every now and agian.


nosaj 86irocz- There is a chance you have found BOB. Or better known as bad out of the box. How did you cconnect the new o2 sensor. Did you buy a universal one that did not come with the connector?

I'll try to keep this simple but maynot be able to. You know that the o2 sensor compares the outside air to the air in exhuast... Some o2 sensors are sealed and get the air that it compares from inside the insulation of the wire. My instructor told me to never solder any o2 sensor wires. By soldering the wire it causes the insulation to shrink enough to seal the wire air tight.

Another possiblilty is a wrong o2 sensor. There are up stream and down stream universal 02 sensors and they do not operate the same.

Did you always have these codes or did they appear after a service?

I'll look up the lean 02 sensor code discription.

You can shoot me an emial to keep this message short.

lawrence_1md@yahoo.com

Thanks,
Matthew

 

Here is what the book says:

Code 44 lean exhaust indication

Code will set when:

- o2 sensor signal goes below .2 volts for 60 seconds and the system is in closed loop

- o2 sensor wire is grounded.

-MAF sensor, reporting a lower than normal air flow.

- Lean injectors. Perform a injector balance test.

- Fuel contamination. Even a small amount of waters.

- EGR not opening when commanded by ECM.

- Low Fuel pressure.

- Exhuast leaks. If extra air is introduced before o2 sensor.

* if above conditions are ok, it is a faulty o2 sensor.

Hope this helps!
Matthew