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TPI OBDII - Thoughts/Opinions

Old 09-21-2006, 03:39 AM
  #51  
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Diagrams can be purcahsed at ALLDATADIY.COM - Do It Yourself Automotive Diagnostic & Repair Information. ($25 for first subscription, $15 for each after).
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Old 09-21-2006, 07:44 PM
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I got my PCM and harness off of E-Bay. It was 95.00 and was from an 01-02 S10. I got the 01-02 Express van wiring diagrams from a Chevy technician buddy. You could probably sweet talk and give a CHEVY TECH 10.00 to print them out for you. Since my PCM was from a V-6 S10 it was not programed to work with my truck, I got a VIN number for an 01 Express Van with a 5.7 engine and a 4l80e trans. I had my buddy reflash it with this VIN so it would run my truck. The VIN determines the programming on factory stuff.
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Old 09-22-2006, 06:22 AM
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Originally Posted by Lextech View Post
I got my PCM and harness off of E-Bay. It was 95.00 and was from an 01-02 S10. I got the 01-02 Express van wiring diagrams from a Chevy technician buddy. You could probably sweet talk and give a CHEVY TECH 10.00 to print them out for you. Since my PCM was from a V-6 S10 it was not programed to work with my truck, I got a VIN number for an 01 Express Van with a 5.7 engine and a 4l80e trans. I had my buddy reflash it with this VIN so it would run my truck. The VIN determines the programming on factory stuff.
I didn't know that about the VIN. Thanks for the info.
Ron
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Old 09-22-2006, 11:35 AM
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I just got a vin number off of Ebay.
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Old 09-23-2006, 09:26 PM
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Originally Posted by 1989GTATransAm View Post
I just got a vin number off of Ebay.
Here's my experience with the VIN in the PCM. I put a 12200411 PCM in my 2000 Firehawk without changing the VIN. I immediately got an air bag light. When I scanned the car to detect all modules (with EFILive), only the PCM was available. The Traction Control Module, Air Bag Module, and Body Control Module were not even listed. When I put the other PCM back in, all the problems went away. I could then retrieve a trouble code from the air bag module that read, "Configuration Mismatch". All I had to do was correct the VIN in the 12200411 PCM to fix the problem.

So it appears that the TCS, BCM, PCM, etc have the VIN programmed in them so they all play nice together.
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Old 10-01-2006, 01:29 PM
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Just to update. In post 47, I said there was 1 A/C wire not used. Well, there are 2 wires. I will figure them out later on. The truck has about 150 miles on it with the 411 and it runs perfect. I tied the 2 green wires that go into the truck for speed input together and connected them to the 1 speed output on the 411--Speedo and cruise work fine as do all the gauges. I had to cut the ground wire from the fuel sender and connect it to its proper place on the 411 for the fuel gauge to work. I also have a 54 Chevy p/u with a 557 Cadillac engine and 4l80e trans and I know for sure that I will be using a 12200411 on that project.
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Old 10-14-2006, 07:59 PM
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Well I finally figured what the 411 wants for crank relearn. I did the relearn today. The 411 uses 4 inputs from the Park/Neutral switch. If you do not use this switch then you need to ground Pin 32 and 34 of C1 Blue 80pin connector DURING the relearn procedure, so the PCM thinks it's in park!
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Old 10-15-2006, 02:42 AM
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guys, i'm looking for a (GM PCM) way to run 4L60-E/4L80-E together with TPI now for 2 years - you gave me the answer! that sounds so damn cool, i'm immediately starting to look for all the needed parts
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Old 10-15-2006, 05:38 AM
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Originally Posted by Lextech View Post
Well I finally figured what the 411 wants for crank relearn. I did the relearn today. The 411 uses 4 inputs from the Park/Neutral switch. If you do not use this switch then you need to ground Pin 32 and 34 of C1 Blue 80pin connector DURING the relearn procedure, so the PCM thinks it's in park!
Awesome! Thanks for the info.
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Old 10-15-2006, 09:14 AM
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It looks like we might have a break-through.
Are you talking about the switch connector on the side of the trans around the shift lever?
Thanks,
Ron
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Originally Posted by LittleNo View Post
guys, i'm looking for a (GM PCM) way to run 4L60-E/4L80-E together with TPI now for 2 years - you gave me the answer! that sounds so damn cool, i'm immediately starting to look for all the needed parts
I pulled a complete harness from a 2001 Express Van a couple weeks ago. If you can find a 2001-2002 Express Van or Savanna Van, I think you would have an easier shot at changeover.
I started with a 97 Vortec truck which S10Wildside basically had to start with just the connectors to build a harness for me, but the harness from the van looked much easier than the way I went.
Ron

Last edited by scuzz; 10-15-2006 at 09:16 AM. Reason: Automerged Doublepost
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Old 10-15-2006, 11:12 AM
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Originally Posted by scuzz View Post
It looks like we might have a break-through.
Are you talking about the switch connector on the side of the trans around the shift lever?
Thanks,
Ron
----------


I pulled a complete harness from a 2001 Express Van a couple weeks ago. If you can find a 2001-2002 Express Van or Savanna Van, I think you would have an easier shot at changeover.
I started with a 97 Vortec truck which S10Wildside basically had to start with just the connectors to build a harness for me, but the harness from the van looked much easier than the way I went.
Ron
The 411 PCM started in late production 2000 model Express vans as well. The astro vans used the same 411 PCM with a different harness as well.
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Old 10-15-2006, 12:22 PM
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Originally Posted by Fast355 View Post
The 411 PCM started in late production 2000 model Express vans as well. The astro vans used the same 411 PCM with a different harness as well.
Would you not have to run two extra injector runs from PCM?
This is getting interesting now.
Thanks,
Ron
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Old 10-15-2006, 12:24 PM
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Originally Posted by scuzz View Post
Would you not have to run two extra injector runs from PCM?
This is getting interesting now.
Thanks,
Ron
Yeah, but thats not a big deal. My 411 and harness was from a 2000 Express with a 4.3 Thats after I got tired of messing with the Black PCM and its lack of support.
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Old 10-17-2006, 09:16 PM
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Sounds very very interesting!
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Old 10-19-2006, 09:34 AM
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Crank Sensor?

Originally Posted by S10Wildside View Post
Sure...

Here's a list of parts (this will be revised until the engine is running and I know the list is complete):
  • 12200411 PCM (LS1, Truck, S-10, Blazer, Express, others)
  • Wiring Harness for 12200411 (must follow Vortec L31 schematics)
  • Vortec 305/350 Distributor (has camshaft sensor in it)
  • Vortec 305/350 Harmonic Balancer
  • Vortec 305/350 Timing Cover
  • Vortec Timing Reluctor Ring (goes behind timing cover)
  • Vortec Crank Position Sensor
  • Vortec Ignition Module
  • Vortec Coil
  • Knock Sensor (2001 Express Van w/ 5.7 engine)
I just installed the Vortec distributor into my TPI engine. It completely clears the runners, but will require relocating the coil. The distributor is offset just like the runners are (bank two is set further forward than bank one).


Can you add the vortec crank sensor to the old TPI style blocks and if so how? I thought the timing cover had a diffrent bolt pattern?
My friend has a tpi and was wondering if their was a diffrent type of computer to run his engine with out going aftermarket. I thought of the Vortec computer but the Tpi has no crank sensor.
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Old 10-19-2006, 10:01 AM
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Originally Posted by s10mods View Post
Can you add the vortec crank sensor to the old TPI style blocks and if so how? I thought the timing cover had a diffrent bolt pattern?
My friend has a tpi and was wondering if their was a diffrent type of computer to run his engine with out going aftermarket. I thought of the Vortec computer but the Tpi has no crank sensor.
Use the ring and cover from a 96-99 Vortec motor, I think even the 4.3 is the same as V8. I got mine from junk yard off core 305 in junk pile for 5.00 and me take it off. The sensor was still in cover also. Be sure to get bolts also, they are different, but it will bolt on a TPI motor just fine. There are two holes in the TPI block at about the water pump that you do not use on the plastic cover. The cover says not to reuse but that's BS. Just clean well and use a little sealer when you re-install. Get the dist and coil from a V8 96-99 while you are there. Or, of course, from an Express Van. If you are lucky enough to find the 2001-2002 Van, I think someone else used a 2001 S10 harness, get it.
I got a 97 truck harness and got S10Wildside to convert it for me.
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Old 10-19-2006, 01:56 PM
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Originally Posted by scuzz View Post
Use the ring and cover from a 96-99 Vortec motor, I think even the 4.3 is the same as V8.
The 4.3 cover is different, but the sensor is the same. A new reluctor ring is $10.86 (GM list). Part number 10190917.
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Old 10-20-2006, 09:27 PM
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I am ALMOST positive that the 4.3 V-6 distributor is the same part number as the V-8. It just uses a different cap---cause it's a V-6. Remember the distributor is a 1X signal per dist. rotation.
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Old 10-21-2006, 03:05 PM
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Let's go back to the transmission range switch. This switch is not used in the f-body.

Range Switch Equipped Vehicles
PCM Connector C1
32: Range Switch A
34: Range Switch P
72: Range Switch B

PCM Connector C2
62: Range Switch C

F-Body (no range switch)
PCM Connector C1
32: Clutch Pedal Position Signal
34: Park/Neutral Position Signal
72: Not Used

PCM Connector C2
62: Not Used


I assume the range switch is optional. I'm going to have to check to see if my 2000 Firehawk has a wire in C1, pin 32. It's an automatic car. If it does not, then I would think only C1, pin 34 needs grounded for the crank relearn. I should mention I've already swapped to the 12200411 PCM in the Firehawk.

Does everyone see where I'm going with this?
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Old 10-21-2006, 03:25 PM
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I just checked. On an automatic LS1 f-body, C1, pin 32, is not used (empty). So, that should mean that only C1, pin 34, has to be grounded to incidate park and perform the crank relearn.

Lextech, what are your thoughts on this?
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Old 10-21-2006, 10:54 PM
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I understand exactly--your dilema, but you have already grounded just pin 34 and it wouldn't relearn. Why not try grounding both pins 32 and 34 during the relearn and see if it works. I know you will have to add a piece of wire but, that's all I can think of. I am not a GM tech. Is there a parking brake input to the 411 on the LS1 F-bodys?

Last edited by Lextech; 10-21-2006 at 10:58 PM. Reason: forgot something
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Old 10-22-2006, 06:31 AM
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Originally Posted by Lextech View Post
I understand exactly--your dilema, but you have already grounded just pin 34 and it wouldn't relearn. Why not try grounding both pins 32 and 34 during the relearn and see if it works. I know you will have to add a piece of wire but, that's all I can think of. I am not a GM tech. Is there a parking brake input to the 411 on the LS1 F-bodys?
I never did have the transmission attached, so there may have been some other problem on the test stand.

There is no parking brake input to the PCM.
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Old 10-22-2006, 11:12 AM
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S10Wildside, I have been told that the cam sensor ( CMP ) has to be within +/- 2 degrees or the relearn won't work---Just a thought. Also, since the LS1 engine is a whole different animal, The 411 may only need 1 signal input for the relearn. So the LS1 scenerio may not apply.
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Old 10-31-2006, 02:03 PM
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Originally Posted by Lextech View Post
S10Wildside, I have been told that the cam sensor ( CMP ) has to be within +/- 2 degrees or the relearn won't work---Just a thought. Also, since the LS1 engine is a whole different animal, The 411 may only need 1 signal input for the relearn. So the LS1 scenerio may not apply.
I also read this on the new distributor instructions that I bought for this swap. Also, since my motor was balanced with my current balancer and its a 6 3/4, I didnt feel like spending another 50 for a bigger 8in specific balancer for this application.
I simply took my balancer to my machine shop and they removed just under an 1/8 (90 thousanths) off the snout and it works perfect.
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Old 11-07-2006, 10:41 PM
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The swap is done. My 383 should fire up tomorrow on OBD II
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Old 11-08-2006, 07:07 PM
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Its alive and running super smooth. We did the crank relearn procedure outlined a few posts back and it works flawless. No SES light no nothing. We didnt have the time to tune yet so its still running the express tune but with the 383 and miniram its silky smooth, no hesitation, no nothing. And my MPH and cruise work perfect.
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Old 11-08-2006, 07:34 PM
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Good to hear. Right now I'm planning on this as my next years mod along with a 4L60E. This has been a good thread for the conversion.
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Old 11-13-2006, 06:20 PM
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Well the dyno numbers were just a "tad" higher. I was up 5hp and 3lbs tq. It only pulled 325/330 at the wheels. I was hoping for a tad higher. Air fuel was dead on 12.8 across the graph. Max HP was at 5800 rpms. I figured with the 383 the tq would be around 350ish maybe. Cam isnt that big of duration. 219/219 560/560 112. I am still running a single cat (which after 43 dyno pulls) was ratteling and smelled. So I bet its on its way out. I am also running stock firebird intake tract. I dont think the tranny is slipping at all. Its got 90K on it with a reman s-10 converter.
----------
Only thing we have to figure out now is the TCC lockup

Last edited by Mkos1980; 11-13-2006 at 06:22 PM. Reason: Automerged Doublepost
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Old 11-13-2006, 07:25 PM
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It's great to see so much interest in the changeover. When I started mine, I didn't know of anyone else. Then after a couple posts, I'm amazed at the interest now.
I personally think that the 0411 changeover will give new life to older OBDI projects.
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Old 11-13-2006, 09:18 PM
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Mkos1980 thanks for the update. Would like to see the dyno sheet if you can post it. The exhaust system maybe killing your motor. You should have way more than 330RWTQ. Heck I'm at 370rwtq with my 350 along with 330rwhp and a smaller cam. Something is holding your motor back.
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Old 11-13-2006, 09:29 PM
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Congrats-MKOS. The 12200411 PCM is really a cool option/upgrade that could open the door for so many smallblock projects. To anyone that is reading this thread, remember this PCM will also run a 4l60e ro 4l80e trans with no chips to burn or aftermarket trans controller. Just the ticket for street rod projects.
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Old 11-13-2006, 10:09 PM
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Originally Posted by 1989GTATransAm View Post
Mkos1980 thanks for the update. Would like to see the dyno sheet if you can post it. The exhaust system maybe killing your motor. You should have way more than 330RWTQ. Heck I'm at 370rwtq with my 350 along with 330rwhp and a smaller cam. Something is holding your motor back.
I had 400lbs TQ last year with the ASM LTR setup and the 383. When I did the MR it went wayyyyyy down. But its over 300lbs from 3000-5500 where as with the LTR setup it was stright up and straight down. I'll try to get it up and posted. It amazes me that the TES headers ahve 2.5 y pipes going into a 3, where as my SLP 1 3/4 have 2.25's going into the 3. I would like to try out some LT's with custom Y and no cat. I hope to get some more dyno time in with this stuff fixed. After 43 runs my motor was hot as heck and I wasnt about to break it lol.
----------
I'll try to get some pics of the motor too to show how nice the coil and new style dis fits back there.

Last edited by Mkos1980; 11-13-2006 at 10:13 PM. Reason: Automerged Doublepost
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Old 11-13-2006, 10:19 PM
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We had the AF dead on from 12.5-12.8 and total timing was 34. We tried an extreme tune with 37 total and we lost power. Car did not like that.
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Old 11-14-2006, 03:41 AM
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Originally Posted by scuzz View Post
It's great to see so much interest in the changeover. When I started mine, I didn't know of anyone else. Then after a couple posts, I'm amazed at the interest now.
I personally think that the 0411 changeover will give new life to older OBDI projects.
I agree...and with GM beginning to discontinue memcals for the TPI system, this will likely be the solution.
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Old 11-14-2006, 08:28 PM
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Is there any HP loss with the converter not locking up at higher rpm? Only reason I ask is were yet to find out how to rigg up the TCC so it locks and unlocks
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Old 11-15-2006, 09:27 PM
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Interesting read... Something to think about for my 1983.
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Old 11-18-2006, 07:33 PM
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Originally Posted by Mkos1980 View Post
Its alive and running super smooth. We did the crank relearn procedure outlined a few posts back and it works flawless. No SES light no nothing. We didnt have the time to tune yet so its still running the express tune but with the 383 and miniram its silky smooth, no hesitation, no nothing. And my MPH and cruise work perfect.
I got to drive the car today and there are no complaints here! Very smooth acceleration. Strong and smooth...that about sums it up. Very nice job on the harness install!
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Old 11-22-2006, 10:51 PM
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On the trip to S10's and back and a few other spots the car went 253 miles before a fillup of 13 gallons. Thats 19 a gallon with no lockup and a cruise set at 75mph AF was NOT tuned for highway and showed 14-15 for some of the trip. This was on the 383

The 355 should be up and running on the 411 by Saturday
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Old 11-26-2006, 10:19 PM
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Well the 355 is up and running on the 411. It started in a split sec with the stock Express tune and 42lbs injectors lol. Idled silky smooth too. SES light was on so I know I have a crank relearn to do and some various other things. But I am glad it at least started.
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Old 11-27-2006, 12:13 AM
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Ok, maybe I missed something by why would you want OBDII? It seems like a lot of expense and work to reinvent the wheel.

It's all very interesting, but exactly what is the benefit?
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Old 11-27-2006, 07:49 AM
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The 12200411 PCM does not need a chip to be reflashed, it also uses dual spark tables, it will run a 4l60e or 4l80e trans, it is not RPM restricted like some GM PCMs, it can be reflashed with a 2 or 3 bar operating system. You can run a 3 or 5 wire GM MAF by rescaling the MAF tables. It is supported by Tunercat-HPTuners-EFILive
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Old 11-27-2006, 11:46 AM
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Originally Posted by Drew View Post
Ok, maybe I missed something by why would you want OBDII? It seems like a lot of expense and work to reinvent the wheel.

It's all very interesting, but exactly what is the benefit?
Drivability is NIGHT & DAY. Even if there was NO power gains or no nothing, i would spend the money because it drives sooooooooooooooo nice.
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Old 11-27-2006, 05:28 PM
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Originally Posted by Mkos1980 View Post
Drivability is NIGHT & DAY. Even if there was NO power gains or no nothing, i would spend the money because it drives sooooooooooooooo nice.
That completely goes against the stiff, jarring suspension, rattling ttops, excessive road noise from the 245's, deafening exhaust tones, and lumpy camshaft.

There's something to be said for being able to troubleshoot the efi system with a book and a paper clip. OBDII is a nightmare if you don't have the equipment to work with it, and the equipment ain't cheap. Only time will tell though, when the OBDII cars get some age on them, everything usually turns to crap.
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Old 11-30-2006, 12:23 AM
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Just thought that I would post a link that I found to some Vortec Ignition parts for us Vortec PCM Converts.

http://www.performancedistributors.com/vortec.htm
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Old 11-30-2006, 02:31 PM
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Thanks for the link!!. BTW the ONLY distributor that I found to be of high performance was Accel's Billetech. This is the only distributor that has a steel shaft. All OEM and reman ones have a plastic shaft. I got the Billetech and its Top Notch!!. It was 259, but when you look at others used or new its the same if not more. I also went with the MSD coil and taylor spiral pro wires for my setuyp. The wires are from a 98 K1500 Vin R and fit PERFECT
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Old 11-30-2006, 06:27 PM
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Originally Posted by Mkos1980 View Post
Drivability is NIGHT & DAY. Even if there was NO power gains or no nothing, i would spend the money because it drives sooooooooooooooo nice.
precisely the reason I am gathering parts for the swap
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Old 11-30-2006, 06:46 PM
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Originally Posted by Justin89Formy View Post
precisely the reason I am gathering parts for the swap
Same reason I did it.
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Old 11-30-2006, 06:47 PM
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Me too. It is on my list for the 2nd half of next year. The first half will be fitting the First intake to my motor.
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Old 11-30-2006, 06:53 PM
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Originally Posted by 1989GTATransAm View Post
Me too. It is on my list for the 2nd half of next year. The first half will be fitting the First intake to my motor.
Not to mention that the "Generic" 85mm Mass Air Flow Sensor that GM is putting on everything now days is GREAT. It has a great resolution, responds great, and gives great driveability.

The 85mm MAF sensor works so well that I retrofited one onto my TBI system, with the help of Dimented24x7 and his MAF $0D based code for the later TBI PCM.

Be warned that TBI injectors are LOUD at 30+ PSI.



This engine has a ZZ4 cam with worked 081s on it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Byd1ejQknU

The proof that it is running on the MAF

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7nVQePIYzhI

Last edited by Fast355; 11-30-2006 at 06:59 PM.
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Old 11-30-2006, 07:00 PM
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I suspect that many will opt out of the MAF sensor. As long as the PCM is tuned right, it can be eliminated. The harness I built for my S-10 has the MAF wiring in it (as shown in pictures above), but I plan to take it out.
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