S10Wildside

tenplus1...keep your eyes on this thread. I may be very close to a distributorless setup for this application. The parts should be ready in a few weeks.

I'm working on a Ram Jet 350, LS2 90mm electronic throttle, coil pack setup with the 411 PCM. This is going into my AWD S-10.

A few early pics here: http://www.eficonnection.com/ramjet350obdii/default.htm

tenplus1

S10Wildside = Da Man!

How serendipitous... I just called my engine builder to finalize the order for my new short block and other assorted goodies. So by the time you get that RamJet LS2 setup going I should have all sorts of shiny new things in my garage to bang my knees on . Guess that's just more motivation to keep the project movin'!

-Dave
...dang, just realized I still have NO idea how I'm going to deal with the exhaust. < thinking out loud > Do LT1 headers fit Patriot Freedom 195cc heads? Or will 3rd gen F-Body headers fit in a 4th gen Camaro?? Hmm... off to do more research!

soultron

iTrader: (2)

This is exactly why I've been watching this thread. Coilpacks.

SABLT194

S10,

I visited your website and your distributorless project is very interesting indeed. I had a thought. How about turning and milling a custom smaller diameter reluctor wheel that would fit in the timing cover. Would the resulting tabs on the custom wheel be too small for the crank position sensor to read? A new reluctor wheel doesn't look all that hard to make. A little turning and some work on the mill with an indexing head.


Steve

S10Wildside

Steve,

That was my first thought...until I saw the reluctor. I don't think it can be reduced to 4 inches and still work.

tenplus1

I had similar thoughts as well. I even got to thinking that one could, theoretically at least, use a smaller/different reluctor in conjunction with a simple little interface module to read the CKP output and "translate" that signal into something that the PCM could use.

EXAMPLE: You stick a small, relatively low-resolution reluctor (4X?, 8X?... whatever suits the application) and sensor under the timing cover as suggested. Then you pipe that CKP signal out to your fancy little translator module. That module reads the simple low-res pulse train coming from the sensor and interpolates missing pulses, changes pulse widths, etc. It then spits out a new (more "complex") signal that the PCM can read. I don't think designing such a module would be that hard, but I haven't really stopped to think about it (yet).

Of course, there are many considerations with doing this. Not the least of which is the fact that if your "universal translator" module ever decides to take a crap on you, all sorts of ugliness may ensue. Wonder what the PCM would do if it suddenly got a stream of completely random garbage halfway down the 1/4...???

Anyway, that was just another one of my goofy "what if" ideas. Anybody want to fund a development project???

scuzz

This is getting to be a great subject.
Good luck, Wildside.
Ron

SABLT194

s10,

I did a quicky little CAD layout. A .250" wide tab on a 7.5 reluctor would end up being .142 wide on a 4" reluctor. That may not be all that whacked out. Do you have real dimensions for an LS1 reluctor? I could easily draw one up and scale it down to see what it looks like for real. I would gladly post results. It's just a little curiousity project.

Steve

jwscab

going to a smaller diameter wheel is OK as long as the reluctor sensor head is small enough. If it's too wide, all that will come out of the sensor is a little blip, which may not be a wide enough trigger.....(might not even get a blip)

likewise, using the existing wheel right next to a balancer may not work, becuase the balancer is iron, and will affect the sensitivity of the reluctor. Your best bet is to build the wheel slightly larger than the balancer. If you make it thin enough, you might even sneak it behind the balancer, on some studs/spacers, and bolt the pulleys on with the studs sticking out of the front of the balancer with some nuts.

no matter what you do, just make sure you scale the notches by degrees, (if the notch is 10 degrees wide, it's ten degrees wide, regardless of the diameter)

I'd like to see the reluctor too, if you have one and can snap some pics.

SABLT194

Im with you on that. My plan wuould be to draw the existing LS1 reluctor to scale, then do a scale down in both X and Y axis to retain the proper angles on the tabs.

Steve

tenplus1

SABLT194-
Not sure if you're trying to actually design the smaller reluctor or just get a measurement of the arc length as it varies with diameter. But if the latter, it seems easier to just calculate it, no?...

s = t*r

...where s is arc length, t is arc angle in radians, and r is radius


So, to find new arc length given existing arc length and diameter:

EXAMPLE:
8" diameter reluctor (r = 4")
1/4" arc length reluctor tooth (s = 0.25")

t = s/r = 0.25/4 = 0.0625 radians (or 3.581 degrees)

pick new reluctor diameter, say 4" (r = 2")...

s = t*r = 0.0625*2 = 0.125" or 1/8"

Incidentally, running the example you gave through this same calculation, I get 0.13333..... Maybe I missed something? Anybody wanna check me on this stuff?

Justin89Formy

iTrader: (26)

ahhh!! math!!!

Mkos1980

iTrader: (8)

Well for those of you wondering about running a 4L60E. The PCM with the express van tune and 4L80E configuration wont work. LOL. I am trying the 4L60E configure tongiht so we will see how it works out. With the 4L80E PCM My car when put in OD Would start off in a locked 4th gear, shift to third then shift to 2nd lol. It was completely backwards lol Hopefully it'll start off in 1st to 2, 3, 4 and so on lol Well see.

Justin89Formy

iTrader: (26)

the weather is too bad to work on cars :finger:

Mkos1980

iTrader: (8)

Theres a big differance between pulling the front of the motor off and installing the pcm and just putting it in gear in the garage. Justin = 6 hours. Matt = 3 minutes :finger:

SABLT194

I was just going to do a quicky cad design just to see how funky an LS1 reluctor would look scaled down to fit under the timing cover. Probably only take about 15 minutes if I had the real LS1 OD , all of the LSI tab and slot angles, and slot depth.

Steve

Mkos1980

iTrader: (8)

With the 4L60E flash the car shifts in order now lol

Justin89Formy

iTrader: (26)

all packed and gassed up for the trip to ohio

Mkos1980

iTrader: (8)

Let the fun begin lol. We should have Justins car done by mid tomorrow afternoon and dynoed by tomorrow night, and with a good street tune Saturday. He'll be all set for a cruise home on Sunday .

scuzz

About how long is it taking you guys to change over a thirdgen car?
Ron

Mkos1980

iTrader: (8)

To do the entire thing, harness and all and make it look perfect. We got about 20 hours into justins car. We just fired it up last night at 11:30PM (Yea the cops came over to yell about the noise lol)

It would have taken less time, but we all thirdgen guys know theres always problems that we run into. As in a broken bolt, missing bolt (why the **** doesnt this fit and so forth lol)

We still have another 4 hours with justins car probebly tying in the fans and making it all look good.

scuzz

It seems that every project I start takes 3 times longer than I expected.

Justin89Formy

iTrader: (26)

Got the LS1 PCM swap complete today. HUGE thanks to MKOS1980 for that! Car idles perfectly at 750 RPMs, accelerates perfectly smooth too. All gauges work, AC works, Speedo works and is 100% accurate. Took the car to Akron Horsepower today to have Jamy of LS RacingChips dyno tune my car.

338.63 RWHP and 342.94 RWTQ done on their dynojet dyno. I was looking for 300rwhp so im really happy. Jamy had a blast tuning it since I was his first tune with the trick flow twisted wedge heads, and he learned some stuff as far as hooking the speedo up to the T56. I have some crappy cell phone videos that I will post when I get home, and I have my dyno charts here that will hopefully scan later tonight so I can post them. That might have to wait too, since its late and I have to hit the road at like 5-6am to go to Syracuse.

Again, the driveability is so much better, and the car is a damn rocket on the highway now. It would lose power in the upper RPMs because it was running so rich, but now its just smooth, powerful acceleration until about 6000rpms. Jamy's tune is awesome. He had it nailed within 4 pulls!

Oh, and I gained about 7rwhp by taking off the stock air intake. Im going to have to replace that next.

CashMunson, nice meeting you! Dwayne, nice meeting you too! S10wildside, again...great job on the harness. Everything worked perfectly and was superior quality! Im sure you put a ton of effort into these harnesses, and it sure shows. I know I ordered the harness a month or so ago, but I saw it for the first time the other day and I was amazed!

Car is finally running how I wanted it

Justin89Formy

iTrader: (26)

heres my dyno results

tenplus1

Hey Justin - congrats on the great numbers and successful tune.

>300 RWTQ from 1800 to dang near 6k... Very nice. I bet that's one fun (and fast) car to drive, esp. with the T56. And just in time to take advantage of the spring weather.

I'm still trying to decide exactly what direction to take with my project. Think I'll be yanking out the old v6 in the next week or so, and the new 383 short block should be complete around Tues. or Wed. Aside from ordering parts here and there though, I've been waiting (patiently... with eager anticipation) for S10W to sort out his RamJet LS2 DIS setup in the hope that I can glean some useful bits of info from his experience. [*Hey Wildside, any updates, eh???] In the meantime, I think I'll buy a 24x reluctor to play around with. I plan to design up a smaller version of it and fabricate one on my buddy's CNC. Then I'll do some experimentation to see if a standard (or other type) sensor can reliably detect the smaller teeth. Should be interesting. I'll be sure to post any results.

1989GTATransAm

iTrader: (3)

Justin, what cam are you running? Nice numbers.

S10Wildside

On Friday I made a few observations with the oscillicope connected to both the crank and cam sensor signals with my 00 Firehawk. I'm also observing crank reluctor and cam position with #1 TDC on a LS1 short block. I'm waiting for a friend to machine an adapter to hold the reluctor. I'm also very busy with harness work. This is a priority to me and you can be sure that I'll post results after it's all figured out. Unfortunately I can't spend much time making a big discussion about my findings while I'm still working it out...I've been pulling a lot of late nights lately to keep up. But I'm excited about this and will do what I can to make it happen soon.


Justin - congrats on the results! I heard you made an LS1 car on I-90 look slow today.

Justin89Formy

iTrader: (26)

a Firehawk, to boot
----------
oh, and im running an slp roller cam. I dont think they make it anymore. Its .498 .502 lift 218 220 duration, and 112lsa (not positive on the lsa). Thats with 1.5 rockers, and I have 1.6 so add a little lol

One problem I have is when I go WOT from 1-2 its perfect. I throw it in 3rd and the motor has no power. I let off the gas and mash it again and its fine. No codes or anything. I *did* find my intake boot was kinda loose from the throttle body. I fixed that, but havent beat on the car yet to see if it fixed it lol

Justin89Formy

iTrader: (26)

i concour, his car is one fast ****!!! It keeps pulling and pulling. Awesome seat of the pants.

Mkos1980

iTrader: (8)

My bad. I was still signed under Justins name from when he was over with that post lol.

Anniversary-Z-man

iTrader: (2)

To those who have completed the swap......any estimate on what the entire change-over cost you?

Also what is everyone using for tuning...are you going with the Moates unit?

Mkos1980

iTrader: (8)

EFILive and Roadrunner. Shop around for used parts and cheap ones and you can get the change over for under a grand assuming you know how to tune.

scuzz

I've picked up all the engine stuff from my friend's engine core pile for taking them off and 35.00.
The PCM can be had for 50.00 to 100.00 if you shop around different junk yards.
I've bought one PCM from ebay for 90.00 total.
The cal files you need are posted on www.monodax.com upload section for free.
You can get mike at www.eficonnection.com to build a harness if you are building from scratch, or some of the truck guys on another board are re-pinning their harness with the connectors that plug on to the 0411 PCM.
There are several of us that would flash PCM for you for free.
If you shop around, you can save some $$$.

Vader

I periodically get asked "Why do you still visit the old TGO boards? Why do you even bother?"

Look at the flat torque curve on that dyno graph. That's the kind of result that should give a real enthusiast a big chunk of wood. If you are one who cannot get excited about the kind of innovation, ingenuity, expertise, application of sound principles, diagnostic skill, and general creativity displayed in projects like this, you might want to ask yourself those same questions. To the rest of you who know better, carry on.

As for me, I salute all of you who are investing the time and effort in these accomplishments. Nicely done, people.

1989GTATransAm

iTrader: (3)

I want to thank whoever finally made this a sticky.

Guest

Awesome, someone read my post about coil packs and acted on it!
So much for messing with MAF v SD and old programming. I guess its time to gather up parts.

scuzz

I think this will keep the TPI cars running for many more years. All these parts are easy to come by.
The changeover will basically work with any Gen1 engine.

Justin89Formy

iTrader: (26)

I just want to pipe in again. Ive been driving my car about a week now since the swap. I can say I've enjoyed my car more this past week, than I have in the 4 years Ive owned and raced it. The car runs so smooth now, with no cold driveability issues, running rich, idling chioppy...none of that crap anymore. I love it! Not to mention I averaged about 26 MPG on the trip back home.

Mkos1980

iTrader: (8)

You got that right!!!. I laugh at the people trying to tune a MAF car in the DIY board now lol. They all say, mine runs good. Yea right... I bet theres a problem somewhere lol.

Anniversary-Z-man

iTrader: (2)

Oh man...what are you guys doing to me LOL! Every new post I read now makes me one step closer to dumping my SD setup with Moates Autoprom etc...and starting to search for parts!
I've gotta say this thread I've been following for months now and I couldn't tell you when the last time I've followed such an informational thread here or on any other Camaro board! It's making me very excited...I've got a decent tune on my 383, but it's running rich and I haven't messed with it in a while. This 411 ECU sounds like a godsend!

Thanks for all the excellent information guys, I always look forward to getting another new thread email notification!
- Joel

Mkos1980

iTrader: (8)

From my Car I went from the Maf which was tuned but theres was always glitches. Moved on to SD and alot was sorted out but it still drove like a car that wasnt tuned perfectly. Moving to the 411 with the bone stock Van tune and my motor was like firing up a new car at the dealer and driving. There is absolutely not 1 driving issue. Starting car ice cold takes literally 1 revolution and I can say that cause on all 3 of the cars I have converted allll were the same. I dont know how I even put up with this car before the 411 lol. Some people gauk at the grand or so to convert but this PCM takes years and alot of time away from tuning. More time to enjoy it!! A few hours dyno tuning and your done. The drivabilty is already there.

1989GTATransAm

iTrader: (3)

I have vacillated some but now there is no doubt I'm going this route. I should be doing it in the 4th quarter of this year. Maybe MadMax and myself can join forces for the Southern California contingent.

S10Wildside

I made some time today to put together a summary of information found in this thread. I've also got a lot of part numbers for items needed to do this conversion.

http://www.eficonnection.com/eficonn.../12200411.aspx

Here's an image of a universal stand-alone harness I built for this conversion on a TPI engine.

Anniversary-Z-man

iTrader: (2)

For right around $1000 that would be awesome...I would have no hesitation on that! I've found a couple 411 ECU's for around $60-$70...you can get the timing cover and vortec dist. on Ebay for cheap. The main thing for me would be the harness...
Scuzz mentioned some guys on a truck board re-pinning their harness for this though...now this intrigues me. I know Mike does AMAZING work on building his harnesses...I've just spent so much cash on the Camaro already I'd like to accomplish this swap as cheaply as possible LOL! So if it's possible to pickup a truck harness and convert it over to use with the 411 I'd have no problem doing that! Any info you could share on this???
Mkos you're description pretty much sums up my car to a T! The car runs OK right now on the SD tune, but there is still alot to be desired...and I'm sure ALOT more tuning to getting it running to where I'm happy.

Thanks for sharing the knowledge guys!

scuzz

http://www.pacificp.com/forum/viewto...69082758b57fc3
This forum thread is great on what the truck guys are doing. There's info on www.monodax.com also. I've posted the cal files for 4l60E and 4l80E L31 0411 PCM there.
Some have picked up a 2001-2002 Express van harness from junk yards and used them with only mods to the injector plugs.
See this post for changing over L31 truck to marine intake for the injector plug conversions. The same deal goes for TPI as the marine injector conversion.
http://www.pacificp.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=317
Mike builds a wonderful harness. He built one for my 41 Chevy pickup with Ramjet/4L60E setup that I'm working on now.
My thoughts on the thirdgen conversion would be to get him to make the conversion harness for that car for you.
Ron

S10Wildside

There are really no secrets. With all the necessary wiring diagrams available, it just takes time to discover the differences between the 96-99 truck harness and the 01-02 harness. From what I remember, the biggest difference was the shared ground for several sensors on the earlier harnesses. The 01-02 PCM has one wire for each sensor ground...none are shared.

The truck harness is going to be too short for a 3rd gen f-body (probably 3 to 4 feet short). You're going to be splicing a lot of wires. The other problem with the truck harness is that it does not branch out near the distributor. This was the point where I decided to build Scuzz a new harness rather than modify a used one. With enough time and rework, you can make the truck harness work.

Mkos1980

iTrader: (8)

My theory is that we spend wayyyyyy to much time and engergy on pathetic results with these cars. I personally would save the $$ and buy one of mIkes hanresses. You know for 100% that EVERYTHING is wired correctly and that when you turn the key its going to fire up in a sec. I would hate to turn the key to find no this or no that and say, um did we wire that in correctly?? Was it suppose to be in this pin or that pin? Or even worse, a break in the wire throughout the loom somewhere.

Anniversary-Z-man

iTrader: (2)

I completely agree with you...if it involves splicing the harness to add 3 feet of wire that's definitely not something I'd want in my engine compartment! That could cause alot of headaches...none of which I want with a swap like this. I hope to have some time this weekend to give a call to some local junk yards to see if I can round up some Vortec parts! Bye Bye SD...hello 21st century technology!

Lextech

Z-Man, You live about 7-8 miles away from me---Oak Forest. The 12200411 PCM is an amazing upgrade. I think it is even worth upgrading on a stock engine. My truck--98 GMC ran perfectly but, with the 0411 PCM it runs much smoother and gets better mileage.

Anniversary-Z-man

iTrader: (2)

Hey Lex...yeah you're probably 15 minutes from me...I'm down the block from Moraine Valley! Good to see a local bro here. I recognize your screenname from other boards I've been reading about this conversion on...I think Monodax and EFIlive....
BTW...any ideas on local junk yards to hit up for Vortec conversion parts this weekend? I was going to check out A-Reliable in Blue Island...
Shoot me an email when you get a chance drabicki2@comcast.net

I'm all in for this conversion...once I start gathering the parts I'll be speaking with Mike @ EFIconnection for the harness and hopefully get the car tuned well and ready to roll after a nice long 6 years LOL!
I'd like to keep my double roller chain so I''ll have to contact Craig to inquire about the thickness of the spacer he had machined between the reluctor and sprocket.

- Joel