Well it turns out my heads are cracked on my 91 t/a, So I found the patriot heads wich I am going to get, That I'm not worried about, I read somewhere that someone said the 91 MAP sensor cars do not like changes a whole lot, like better flowing heads, and bigger cams? Is this true? I havnt looked into a cam yet, but I can go up to .570 lift I believe, and I want to make use of that with a big cam, but not sure on my tuning abilities. This car is crazy, I am used to the ease of imports, I had a datalogger, and an Air fuel controller for my 91 eagle talon, and it was EASY to tune, didnt have to burn chips or any of this stuff, Some advice would be appreciated thanks.

 

Go to DIY Prom and read the stickies.
You'll be knowledgable in no time.
It's not that hard to start if you use the wisdom that is in the forums.
Start at DIY Prom though.

 

Sorry should have clarified, I have read them with no luck, I am not asking HOW TO TUNE, I am asking if I will have to tune it with this setup. If I have to tune it I will figure it out, with all of the knowledge on here, but once again will this car run good without being tuned?

 

MAF oriented applications are a little more forgiving than Speed Density when it comes to changing valvetrain components. Your definitely going to need a tune to take full advantage of any H/C/I install, as well as everyday driving conditions. If you don't tune it right away, the ECM's prom will be trying to run the modified engine based on the factory's original settings....

 

So, would that be a bad thing if the ECM is going to run it on factory settings? I mean it should learn wont it? I have been reading up on tuning and think i can figure it out, but the car doesnt run very good right now, like hardly at all, and am going to build the engine up, so I think initial start up is going to be CRAZY, especially if it doesnt run right, I was thinking about going to some 24lb injectors also, 'cause I just dont trust the ones I have.

 

Block Learn Mode restores data to it's original settings. Installing, for example, a 224/224 camshaft, air/fuel/spark parameters would still be set for the stock camshaft, as the ECM isn't really programmed to "adapt" to such changes. The learning function merely restore's lost information, it doesn't literally adapt to new ones. If it did, there'd be no reason for us to be burning chips in the first place....

 

Don't get me wrong, the engine will run, it just won't run "right". Larger injectors, bumping up fuel pressure, while altering timing, will definitely aid in smoothing out the idle (in comparison w/doing nothing as an alternative), but I wouldn't recommend WOT, or even putting a load behind the engine, for that matter, until a properly burned chip is installed....

 

Ah ok, so when I get the engine rebuilt with the heads and cam, and headers and injectors, I should set up all the tuning software? and Datalogger? I have a few months before she's done so I can try and figure it all out. But I do have a better understanding of what I need to do. Thank you. And also any input on/about the subject would be appreciated, I am basically re-learning a whole new car. Import to muscle car.
----------

Ok, well that is the answer I was after, I am in no hurry to drive this car, I just want it to run right when I am done.

 

Plan the build carefully, distinguish dynamic/static compression levels ahead of time, as well as duration and lift specifications. It shouldn't be too hard for you to initially put together a base tune (based on your particular mods). You'll definitely want to reach out to RBob over @ Dynamic EFI Click Here, when your ready to start tuning hardcore....

 

my opinion:

if you only change the heads, intake, and keep the factory cam, factory injectors, I think the car will run okay.

if you change the cam, I think it will run like a dog (i.e. not good).

if you change the injectors, i.e. 30#, then I think it won't run at all, unless you have a custom chip preferrably burned yourself so you can fine-tune it.

 

Well, I was planning on using an LT1 cam, with 24lb injectors and the patriot heads, 1.5 Roller rockers, and headers. It seems like with all the newfound air flow that it should need bigger injectors.

 

if the LT1 cam you're selecting is kinda mild, it might be okay, the milder (closer to stock), the more your computer will be able to handle it.

you computer will recalculate the req'd fuel-air based on it's sensor inputs. it will detect the increased airflow and will do its' best to adjust the fuel-air requirements. it will ASSUME that it still has stock injectors. I think if you substitute bigger injectors and it has no way of knowing this, then that will screw up the computers' adjustments.

I think the computer can only do so much from the O2 sensor being lean-rich, and the injector change will probably be beyond the range of what the computer can do. but you could always be adventurous and try it.

the only way to tell the computer you have bigger injectors is to program this into the chip. that's why I said you'd need a reprogrammed chip if you changed the injectors.

I think the factory injectors are about 22-24#, and the jump to, say, 30#, is to big of a jump, that's more than 30% increase, not exactly a fine-tune adjustment.

24# might be okay, since that's close to stock. are your stock injectors 19# for your car?

 

Well, I believe stock injectors are 22lb from what i have been told (L98 350) and I figured with all the extra air flow from the heads and cam, that bumping up the injectors a couple pounds might also compensate for the extra air flow from the stock LT1 cam, and 195cc heads, plus headers and BBK throttle body, Thats alot more airflow, more air needs more fuel right? I just looked up burning prom stuff, and it went up in price from $150 as posted in the forum, to 295 on the website, that's way to much for just a deal to start burning chips, If i have to I will probly just get a mail order chip.

 

going from 22# to 24# is probably small enough that your car ought to run okay. probably a similar effect as boosting the fuel pressue a couple of psi.

I think the cheap way to get into prom burning is using a lot of the free software that's available, (and/or the darn-near free S/W) and it's good stuff. I started off with TunerProRT, the Moates Flash-n-Burn, and an AKM cable.

 

Please do a little digging on the subject before throwing out false info. When I had my stock 305 TPI, I ran 30lb injectors and an extra 5psi of fuel pressure with no problems. That was without any change to the prom. The computer compensated just fine with what the O2 sensor was reading. Never once did I even throw a check engine light.

Now a head and cam change will greatly effect drive ability. Will it be drivable? More than likely...it just will not be anywhere near what it could be. I have gone as far as putting a 350 block and cam under a set of 305 heads and still retained the factory 305 computer in the past. The result was a motor that liked to detonate, but with the right fuel it was still fine to drive on the street (at under 4500 rpm).

 

When I built my 388 TPI I used Bruce A. Bowling, and Al C. Grippo's Injector sizing script http://www.bgsoflex.com/pwcomp.html which suggested a 29lb/hr injector for a 13 AFR @ 5500 rpm at an 80% duty cycle.

When I calculated injector size for 400hp, the estimate was 29lb/hr. So I went with a 30lb injector and it works just fine.

 

Well, I cant seem to find a decently priced "prom burner" If I have to spend 300 on it, I will just get a mail order chip, where do I get/find all this stuff at a decent price, I know I can download the software, but I just dont want to spend 300 on a burner.

 

I'm using a Transtronics Pocket Romulator -$179.95 (chip emulator,) Moates chip adapter (didn't see it on their website,) and TunecatRT/TunerProRT programs. For the cable I use Moates ALDU1 and CABL1 XtremeALDL and NewCABL1 USB Combo ($80.)
Either way you go, it's not less than $300, but a mail-order chip will definitely cost you more in the long run because IMO it's impossible to tune a car by mail.

 

And what website are you reffering to? I dunno, why do we even have to burn chips, isnt there just a piggy back tuner for these cars? Like the A'PEXI S-AFC So much easier than jacking with all this stuff!

 

My engine builder and tuner has some sort of set up that he called an Ostrich. Goes between the prom and the ECM and allows manipulation of in real time. Then you use what you came up with to burn a prom with the correct info. A lot less time consuming I am sure!!