Here's an idea: You can just send all of your parts to me and I'll put them to the test up here in no smog hickville. I'll send it all right back to you when I'm done, promise.
(can you see my fingers crossed behind my back) Ha Ha Ha!

 

In fact, that you build such serious power while staying within the California smog-legal limits makes it all the more impressive. It's in a situation like yours that doing the math really becomes critical.

 

I saw this thread on Speed talk and it sums up quite nicely as to why I decided to change heads. The poster was refering to a post about heads and airspeed/velocity.

"It's not that easy. If you're supplying more airflow than the motor demands, it will only produce power on the top end. Flow will make you an instant hero, but velocity will make you a genius. If the extra flow in your port reduced the velocity, from what the motor wants, the motor will produce less power, and it will be at a high rpm. If the velocity is more than the motor can stand, it will be very responsive, but die on top end."

The last sentence is what I feel my AFR 195 heads are doing or are about to do. The bottom line it is all about getting the air velocity correct.

 

Yep, sounds like your heads are starting to choke out. AFR makes a great street head to 6500 rpm, and their bigger heads still do well to higher rpms on the right motor combos. Very responsive, but to really push the limits, you sometimes need different port profiles/velocity profiles to get more power up top. Your motor may be in that category now and those new heads you bought should definately be more than enough to feed it. Love to see the comparision, even with the same intake on it and same cam, no other changes but heads.

 

"Love to see the comparision, even with the same intake on it and same cam, no other changes but heads"

Me to but it is not in the cards. By the way I am having Dr J "rub" on the new heads a little. Also the latest valve job which the heads did not have. The velocity at the pushrod pinch is now at 315fps which is about where it should be being that I am running a heavy car.

I went over to Wallace Racing calculators and ran the Mach port velocity numbers on my motor. I am shooting for peak horsepower to be at 6600rpm. The number came up at .5 Mach. That is dead nuts as to where I should be for a street motor. Thank You Dr. J. Also the average fps for the pistons is about 4000fps which is also good.

Things are looking good, "what could posibly go wrong"? Hahahahaha.

 

Redoing the cam too then? IS that cam producing a 6600 rpm peak as it is tho? Its a decent size cam in a 369" motor.

 

I had Mike Jones do the camshaft. It is specified for the 369" motor at 6500 rpm. The specs are 280/280 @ .006 and 233/233 @ .050". Lift on the lobe is .360". LSA is 113 degrees. Happens to be installed at 109.5 as it turns out.

It should be okay and with the higher flowing heads and intake I am hoping to cheat the horsepower peak up another 100rpms or so. I will probably have to wait for the next long tube runner project with the corrections in order to do so. Here are the goals for the next long tube runner intake system.

1. Increase the plenum volume some more.

2. Shorten the runners as required to have the peak of the 2nd harmonic wave come in around 6400 rpm. The dyno results from the present long tube runners will clue me in as to what the engine wants for runner length.

3. Re-do the entry of the bell mouths at the plenum to be uniform with a nice .250" radius. This will give a sharper and stronger wave impulse and help increase the cylinder filling. The entry area bellmouths now are far from perfect in trying to reuse the factory system.

4. Raise the fuel injectors a little more and be .250" higher than the stock ones. This will allow for a better profile around the injector area and into the head for a little better airflow and maintain the proper CSA in the injector area.

Those are the reasons I have decided to build one more.

 

The old "big" slp cam was
490I 510E lift
224I 232E dur @ .050
280I 288E duration.
115* CL

they changed it later to 510 510 lift.. not sure of dur change..

 

"The old "big" slp cam was
490I 510E lift
224I 232E dur @ .050
280I 288E duration.
115* CL"

Hahahaha. Yeah I remember going through the SLP catalog in those days and my thoughts then versus now sure have changed. I keep getting bigger on cams, heads, compression and so on. I used to think what I am running today would have been way too extreme say back in 1990. I also never dreamed of getting close to a 10 second car that would still pass smog and be fully streetable.

Let us know how your project is coming along. It sounds very interesting and I like the things you have done.

 

Yeah Thats the cam I put in my car right off the bat! (still have it!) Ended up in the 11s with a stock 350 shortblock TFS heads, edelbrock big base and super thin SLP runners. Yeah lots more done to the car but it was a fun combo.
Scary thing is Ive done all this stuff with a STOCK 89 350 chip..
yes it would be faster with a tune but Im just playing... until this next combo

 

That big SLP cam was my first cam as well. It made good power but I felt that my modified intake and G2 heads could support more cam so I swapped to the ZZX(239/239 @.050, .560/.560 lift with 1.5 rockers, 112 LSA). I know it's a bit extreme for long runner TPI but it really does work. I lost a bit of torque below 3,000 but I get it back and then some between 4,000 and 6,000 and the motor pulls strong right to its 6,800 shift point. Or to its 6,900 rev limit if I miss a shift(oops). And it drives well on the street. It will never pass a smog test. Maybe with three cats in series.

 

I ran that cam in an LT1 and I loved it. Didn't excel at any one particular thing but had good driving characteristics and I got over 30 MPG with it and a T56. Made some decent power but nothing too crazy. Wish I never got rid of mine, they are hard to find now. I've used a variety of different cams, some I liked, some I didn't, all name brand...I dont know who did SLP's cams but I think they did a fairly decent job. For it's intended purpose, I'm as satisfied as I was with the GM847. My $0.02

 

When you finish tweaking that thing and verify it's functionality, you ought to look into getting it cast. Casting aluminum isn't as hard as you would think, or as expensive. Sand casting it would be somewhat of a pain in the ***, but it's doable. The base and the plenum would be easy but the runners would still be a fab part (obviously) but once molds are made, the rest would be a piece of cake. I wonder if the folks at first injections would consider it?

 

"I wonder if the folks at first injections would consider it?"

I doubt it. First Injections is working on a 2" runner though. The only one I can think of would be BBK. Maybe a meeting would be in order. Edelbrock could do it but I don't think they are interested.

As to where we are at with the project. I took the heads over to Dr J for a little massaging to better fit the heads to my motor. Well he busted through the bowl in the same spot on each head and only in one bowl per head. He is sending them out for welding and that is the hold up.

These heads should be about as good as I can get for the money as they are being "massaged" for my motor and rpm range. So the long tubes runners are going to be given as fair a shake as can be. I am also having him check the cc's of an intake runner and a combustion chamber to see where we are at. I would think I am around 220cc at this stage on the intake.

 

That would be a great addition to the TPI world.

 

I think it would be a GREAT additon to the tpi world.
I also wanted to do a LTR lower intake runner combo that had the port shape like the 5.0 edlebrock mustang intakes and do the runners the same way with a matching plenum.. they would have a rectangle like shape all the way thru.
And add to the combo 3 dif length (internally) runners to match your combo, torque, midrange or higher RPM.
Maybe even make it all or some of it out of the plastic that LS1 stuff uses.

 

"Maybe even make it all or some of it out of the plastic that LS1 stuff uses"

From what I have read that can be expensive. That is why there is a dearth of aftermarket plastic intakes for the LSX systems. The reason I thought of BBK is that they deal in cast aluminum intake systems.

My thought was to taper the intake manifold down to say a Felpro 1204 but make it easy to open it up to a 1205 or 1206 intake gasket to match whatever head one is going to use. Than again I guess you could have separate castings for that portion. I think you would have to specify Bosch 3 injectors or an equivalent. Or just say screw the stock type heads as it would be for heads with 1205 or 1206 gaskets.

 

Pure 1205 intake with porting ability to 1207 would work, like most cast single planes out there.

 

"Pure 1205 intake with porting ability to 1207 would work, like most cast single planes out there"

I agree in that would be the best route. Just forget the stock type heads and go strictly for the aftermarket head route. I think that is where BBK went wrong with their "turtle" intake in trying to satisfy too big of a market and had to make to many compromises in doing so.

Just say right up front that the intake is for heads that utilize Felpro 1205 or larger intake gaskets and that you have to use Bosch 3 or equivalent injectors. Also that the intake can easily be opened up to a 1206 or 1207 gasket size.

 

Yes I agree, waaay past time to step away from stock and small CChead setups..
I had talked with the FAST folks at PRI in FL a few years ago and they said the same thing, cost would be a concern..
Even if its just old school aluminum it could be made to work with stock/vortec/aftermarket heads and have enuff meat to cnc the ports to the customers needs.
It could be made as a pure performance setup also.
Time for a conference.. haha

 

I have considered using the rectangle port idea before. That would eliminate the problem with keeping CSA consistent when transitioning to a different shape port. It would simplify things, without a doubt. Problem is the tubes... Not as easy as a mandrel bent aluminum tube. I think the rectangle port idea would be best left to a casting, though it would be a heavy part...

 

Minor update: Dr J poured the intake port and they are now at 222cc. I had him pour the combustion chamber as a double check and they came in at 64cc. He did it twice to make sure. They were supposed to have been milled to 61cc to maintain my current compression ratio.

So off to the machine shop they go. So maybe into Dyno Don' shop next week to install the new heads and intake system. The airspeed at the pushrod pinch is now at 315fps. With the AFR 195 heads and if they did indeed flow 306cfm the airspeed would have been 370fps which is way high. With the 1.98CSA at the pushrod pinch that would have a Mach value of .62 which would be into choke at 6600rpm. My new heads have a Mach value of .50 which is just where I want to be. I can't wait to get this thing on the dyno.

By the way there was a track rental at Famoso Speedway in Bakersfield this past weekend and the DA was 601' at 10am. When I got my 11.57 second run at Fontana the DA was about 1800'. So that would put me in around 11.37 seconds. So maybe another 40rwhp will get me my 10.99 pass? We shall see. Also I need to put my skinnies up front for a little extra help.

 

I'm soooo ready to see this thing moooove out !!

 

Now that combo is moving like it should!

Interesting those heads are now 222cc Makes me feel better about my 245's on my lil 401. What was the CSA on the new heads again?

 

The CSA is 2.46in/sq. Going by the Wallace racing calculators my 369ci motor turning 6600rpm equals a Mach .5 velocity at the pushrod pinch. With your twin turbos you have entered into another dimension.

 

2.5 is what I calculated my motor to need but I was talked into 2.72 in/sq. Abit larger but leaves room down the road in case I want to throw a 4" crank in it

Your motor is gonna be sick!

 

I would follow the advice of those who have the experience in that area.

 

I thought I would post the final flow numbers numbers for the new heads. The feet/second at the pushrod pinch is about 55fps slower than the AFR 195s currently on the car. This will make accessing the available CFM a whole lot easier. These flow numbers are about the same as those posted by AFR @.600" and below on the 195 Comp head but as said the airspeed is way, way lower in the critical areas with the new heads. I am quite pleased how they have turned out. Onward to the dyno.

.100"...67cfm
.200"...145cfm
.300"...204cfm
.400"...258cfm
.500"...292cfm
.600"...305cfm "my limit"
.700"...312cfm
.800"...316cfm
.900"...321cfm
1.00"...328cfm

What is interesting to note is the AFR heads would nose over after .600" lift. These keep right on going. Again the airspeed.

 

Nice. Not very often you see a small block head not take a dive around .600"-.700". You are onto something with the air speed.

 

Hey 1989GTATransAm, I'm gonna buy you a much bigger cam for your birthday. And those heads will "eat it up" I see a 10 sec. time slip in your future my friend!

 

Thanks guys. I hope it turns out that the cam is the limitation. IMHO that will be a good thing.

 

Nice work, I had the same Idea, I did not go as far with it though, and I wanted to keep it looking more stock - https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/tpi/...w-runners.html

 

Congratulations on the fabrication skills... you both are inspiring

 

Did you ever get the engine tuned properly?... How's the rpm range affected with one inch less of length?

 

"Nice. Not very often you see a small block head not take a dive around .600"-.700". You are onto something with the air speed"

I was reading a post by Darrin Morgan stating if the port continues to rise in cfm/flow up to an inch of valve lift it is a very stable port. That was good news.

"Did you ever get the engine tuned properly?... How's the rpm range affected with one inch less of length?"

Hopefully I can get the car into the shop next week and the installation of the new intake system and heads can begin. The intake system with the about 1" shorter runners is under construction and probably won't be ready until early next year. The final tune will be on the chasis dyno and hopefully this month.

 

I'm very excited to see the results.... you truly have taken TPI to another level.

 

It has been confirmed that my car is going into Dyno Don's shop tomorrow to get the new heads and long tube runner intake installed. We have a club dyno day set for November 19 so we should have some results that evening.

 

I'm very anxious to see the results.

 

I got the money for your heads right now!

 

Hi Vincent

Pat already has them in hand and paid 50% up front. I no longer have them. By the way I am not sure you want them. Pat is going to have Dr J open them up for his 383 motor and make some corrections to the ports.

Apparently there was a flow problem from the git-go with the heads. Pat had Dr J flow them today on his bench and they went 280cfm @ .500" lift and started backing up at .600" lift and went turbulent right after that.

Those results back up Joe Shermans flow bench from a couple of years ago when I purchased them new. I had taken them up to AFR for a check and on Tony's bench they flowed 306cfm @ .600" lift but that is a different flow bench than what most everyone else uses.

So the new heads flow 305cfm on Dr J's flow bench. So there is some potential to pick up some good power from the heads along with the new intake. We shall see. By the way good progress is being made on the car. Dyno Don and Tony are doing a fine job.

 

Time for an update. The week before the car went into Dyno Don's shop for the new heads and the long tube runner intake system to be installed. We also put back in a stock torque converter so we could match the last dyno pulls. My Yank SS4000 torque converter does not do well on the chassis dyno.

Anyways last Monday the installation was complete but the car was not running right and had a surging idle. To cut to the chase we found that the timing marks on the dampener as put on by someone else were not right. We corrected that today and the car runs like a champ.

I don't want to get to enthusiastic but the low end power is awesome and will break the tires loose in a heartbeat. From previous experience with the last combination I new I had to be careful about getting on the car as the tires would break loose and the rear end would come around. Well being careful it still did it and that is not fun on a city street with cars around.

So I would say even with the large tube runners and the AFR 210 heads that have now been massaged up to 222cc I have not lost a thing down low. In fact it is possible I have gained low in torque from the way the car handles. Dyno Don will be upgrading his car shortly and we will both go and get our cars dyno'd. This should happen within one to two weeks. I have my fingers crossed. The car is really running great and is fun do drive.

 

What happened to Dyno day on the 19th ?We over at the Corvette Forum are waiting for the results on Dyno Don's L98 Corvette headers.

 

That's what I want to see. Dyno pulls.

Make sure they do one as low as you can so we can see how she pulls down low.

By the way, what are you running for a pcm?

 

Thats great news! Glad to see those heads are working well right now. I would have expected slight loss on the low end but not enough to worry about. Port must be very good and still getting great cylinder fill. Cant wait to see what it does on the top end. I expect some more rpm to peak power point and with rpm comes more hp.

 

Regarding the dyno pulls on the 19th the Covette had ignition problems. It will have to be rescheduled. There was a Camaro with a ZZ4 crate engine which has the Corvette heads and he made about 300rwhp and 400rwtq with Dyno Don headers. That was amazing in my book. He was really happy.

I am running the 7730 factory ecm. Making the dyno pulls low is why we put in a stock torque converter. With the Yank SS4000 it would flash to 5000+ rpm before it settled in. Yes we are all looking forward to the dyno results.

Orr, I would have expected to lose some low end grunt but that does not appear to be the case. Hopefully I don't lose anything on top and gain some power. Hard to imagine gains everywhere but I have my fingers crossed.

 

I thought I would take a picture of the final installation. To someone just walking by it looks like your typical TPI intake system.

 

That's a really good looking "Restoration" you have going on there 1989GTATransAm. I'm glad to see one of you Hot Rodders finally taking a nice F-Body back to STOCK condition

 

That's so sick!!!

 

that car looks damn stock besides the black paint... im jealous... i think we should trade engines lol....

 

Hehehehe. You guys are too funny. Yep, the retro look is kind of sneaky.

This is the best shape this car has been in for awhile. No issues what so ever. Just idles so nicely at a stop light. Everything working as it is supposed to except hooking up the rear tires. I have to tend to that.