thats really amazing how you have all that power with all the emissons and stuff hooked up and still being able to pass the tough CA laws out there..... im really impressed.... ive deleted nearly all the stuff out of mine and still dont have the power anywhere near yours i bet..... i know i wouldnt even pass CA laws out there

 

Yup, other than the black paint its just like the one I've dreamed of since 91..

 

Seriously...you could hustle sooo many guys with that motor...as long as the exhaust doesnt give it away too much you'd get stock SS/5.0 coyote cars trying to run all day long and getting beat bad

I wouldnt hesitate to run you at first glance when I had my 383 motor running mid 11's. I'd never expect a TPI to run same as me and that ported HSR

 

I'm guessing it should have enuff power to go 10s..

 

now if only someone could make that intake a special made to order item for us thirdgen guys would be awesome..

 

Agree 100% and do it at a reasonable cost.

 

Looks pretty stock to me. That's outstanding!

 

Yes ummmm. Can you super size my order please?

 

How and where did you get the runners made?

 

"How and where did you get the runners made?"

I have a friend with a machine shop and had the "plates" made up for the top and bottom. I cut the 2" diameter, 3" radius aluminum bends to the correct length and had them welded up to the plates and I did the final grinding and finishing. So three people were involved. The machine shop, me in my garage and the welder. Can't forget the people who did the ceramic coatings but that is optional.

 

Well done. One more question, how did you make the large tubes? Sounds like a project that I would like to consider in the future.

 

The large tubes are made up from U-bends and are readily available. They have a 3" radius, 2" diameter, 16 guage and 6061-T6 aluminum.

 

I just noticed the electric water pump in the picture and the belt that runs all the other accessories.......how cool is that?

I'd be half tempted to put the stock valve covers on it and paint the intake the original silver.

 

I like Rumblin70ss idea, except put on an aluminum water pump with an underdrive pulley, all painted stock colors.

 

So where can I get these readily available 6061-T6 aluminum tubing from?

 

Here is one place. I found quite a few with a quick Google search. This is one of the cheaper places I found. The price is $17.75 each.

http://www.evolutionracewerks.com/node/124

 

Thanks man. I can imagine how excited you where when you began to modify. Have you thought about getting into making these as a means of making money?

 

No way I could make any money on this. It would take someone like BBK or Edelbrock to do it and make a profit.

 

Yeah, I read the older posts where you mentioned that you where investing about $300 a month. That's way out of my budget. At least you got an intake that you can proudly say that you designed, helped fabricate, and claim that it is one of a kind. Good job man. I envy you. Lol

 

Minor update. I dropped by Dyno Don's shop to have Kevin adjust my idle a little lower today. It was set at 875rpm from playing around with it last week and with the stock torque converter installed it wanted to creep at a stop light and I would have to add a little more pressure on the brake. Anyways it is now down to around 800rpm in gear and that seems about right with a lot less break pressure needed. The idle is surprisingly smooth.

Anyways I have not gone full throttle until today as I did not know what the AFR would be. I wanted Kevin to check things out before I did it. There were maybe 5 knock counts with the 91 octane so we lowered the spark advance in the 4400 to 5200 range to 28 degrees. The rest of the table is at 30 degrees. The 28 degrees should cover the peak torque area. I might have to richen up the fuel tables in that area but I will wait until we get on the dyno and look at the wide band and see what it says.

One thing I did do was take it up to 6600 rpm in 2nd gear and it rev'd right up there with no hesitation and with plenty of pull. This car just scoots right long and is a blast to drive. IMHO this is the way it should have come from the factory.

 

I just got done reading this entire thread and all I can say is WOW. To do something like this and stay within the smog laws is just downright sickening.

 

...are you trying to make me cream the inside of my shorts? This is like getting a lap dance from a hot stripper and not having the extra $20 for happy time after work...

 

A little update. Waiting on a club member to put his new intake system on his car and when that is done we will be off to the dyno. Hopefully in a few days. Meanwhile the 2nd long tube runner project is going full speed ahead and is proceeding nicely. Here are some pictures. The first picture shows the nice new bell mouth entrance from the plenum. This will replace most of the plenum side wall with the bellmouths facing inward toward the interior of the plenum naturally.

The 2nd picture shows the plate that the two inch OD runners will be welded to. In the 2nd picture you can see the counter bore that the 2" tube fits into. I believe correcting the bellmouth entrance to a nice smooth radius versus the irregular entrance of the factory plenum to the runners will create a nice sharp and stronger harmonic wave and theoretically boost the power some more.

 

Just when I think I have seen it all, you come up with something new. Is there anyplace we can see your whole combination, including cam specs? I'd like to know how that motor manages to make all that power and pass CA emissions.

If you do post the combo in detail, it should become a sticky. That way the guys that would like to build cars like this would have a much easier time doing it.

 

"Is there anyplace we can see your whole combination"

I will turn on my signature. If any questions just ask. I have not updated the heads and intake yet in my signature. I will after the results are in. Heads are now AFR 210s that have been ported. Intake as seen in this thread.

There are four areas of improvement/goals I am making to the 2nd LT runner project that I have previously stated.

1. As shown in the pictures is getting the bellmouth entry correct compared to the factory method.
2. Adjust the total runner length in order to make the 2nd harmonic wave peak at 6400rpm. Shift 6700+rpm?
3. Raise the injectors another .125" so I can expand the CSA in that area. Smaller than I would like at present.
4. Expand the volume of the plenum even more.

 

Likely power will hold to 6700 so shift by 6800-7000 sounds nice. If you recam for the new heads someday, I'd have it peak 6600-6700 and shoot for 7K+ shifts If it will still pass emissions by that point. So surprised its working now

 

Hi Orr

Yeah I would have to re-cam it to peak higher. From what I have read the 2nd harmonic wave falls off pretty fast once the ramming effect is over and that will determine my shift point. The dyno will tell the tale when that happens.

 

Thanks so much! That definitely helps! You said ask questions if I had them, so here we go......

Cam specs.......lift/duration/lobe separation?
Why a 368 rather than a more common 355/383?
What are the readings when you do an emissions test?

Not sure I understand how the harmonic waves work, but that may be a question for another time.

The new head/intake combo is amazing. I love a 'stocker' making this kind of power and just like everyone else am dying to see the new dyno numbers.

 

The cam numbers are 233/233 @ .050, 280/280 @ .006, 113 LSA, .360" on the lobes. With the 1.65 rockers that is .594" lift at the valve.

I got somewhat of a deal on the crankshaft. Joe Sherman wanted to sell the crankshaft from his winning motor at the 2003(?) Engine Master Challenge. The rules at the time were that motor had to be under 365(?) cubic inches so the reason for the 3.562" stroke crankshaft. It is from Scat and of the lightweight design and has all the bells and whistles including a special coating so that oil is less likely to stick to the crank. Also has 2.00" rod journals instead of the normal 2.10". If you are wondering his winning motor had a 4.030" bore and mine has a 4.060" bore. I need to change my signature as the motor is actually closer to 369 cubic inch or about 6.0L.

As to the emissions I don't recall the numbers but the motor did pass with margin to spare. It was not borderline.

 

Thanks again for the info! That clears up alot about the size of the motor you went with. If I had an oppurtunity like that, I'd jump on it too.

For all intents and purposes, I'm surprised a cam that large actually passes emissions. I was assuming something in the mid 220's was as large as I could go and here you are in the 230's and able to pass with a margin. Any ideas why its so clean? I just don't want to make a mistake when I go through my motor.

Are you using the factory computer to tune or and aftermarket DFI?

 

"Any ideas why its so clean? I just don't want to make a mistake when I go through my motor."

One thing that helps is that it is a single pattern camshaft so the overlap is less than one would think. I believe it is actually less than the Comp Cams XFI 280/288 camshaft which is 230/236 at .050". Also the compression ratio is 11.12:1. It also idles a lot better than one would think. The LSA of 113 helps in both areas.

 

While doing some research I came across this statement on Speedtalk. This is in regard to harmonic wave tuning and the length of the intake track.

"A bent stack affects the effective tuned length; it shortens it. Compare the stack centerline distance to the short side distance. The ratio of lengths is the change in tuned rpm."

I have seen statements alluding to this before when using curved runners but this is the first time I have seen it written with the actual changes. Sooooooo, maybe my runners are close to the correct length as they are. I will just have to wait and see what the dyno results say. Also it confirmed what I have seen written on the bell mouth entry I am using giving a sharper and stronger wave pulse. So I am on the right track there.

 

The bell mouth design you have pictured will do alot to improve flow at the runner entries by preventing turbulence. The smoother transition we can provide for the air as it flows from the plenum to the runner, the more volume we will achieve at a given pressure differential. Think "fluid dynamics"

Now WHEN will we see some dyno results? I have been with you on this almost from the beginning and the suspense is becoming too much to bear.

BTW, when you do get around to building the next version, I will be more than happy to dispose of your current prototype at no cost to you whatsoever.

 

x2

 

Here is the "problem" with the dyno results. I am still waiting on "someone" whose name I can't say to finish putting a new intake system on their car. This car is also above 400rwhp and is looking for more. We are going to rent the dyno together. Could be another car too as it is ready to go. As of today I think we are talking sometime next week. I don't think it will be this Saturday.

I will be going over to the machine shop this Thursday and Friday to work on the next LT runner project. A lot of progress has already been made on that front.

Some of you may not know that Bryce Mulvey the above poster is known as Dr J and has a premiere porting shop. He has played a big role in this project with the porting of the base and the AFR 210 heads.

 

Hello Bryce Mulvey. Your work on the AFR 210 heads is impressive. Continued flow increase up to 1.000 lift is not something we see everyday. Good Work!

 

That is a very good observation. Darrin Morgan on Speedtalk commented about the flow numbers above the intended use. What they do is indicate how well designed the port is do to the lack of turbulence. Paraphrasing of course.

 

It appears we will be on the dyno next Tuesday or Wednesday. Dyno Don took the previous intake system with the First base and SLP runners over to Joe Sherman's today to be flowed. It turns out that port #1 which is the one we use to test with flowed 311cfm.

Not bad and it provided me with 420rwhp. Remember the new long tube runner with base, runners and plenum flowed 336cfm on the same bench. Also on the same flow bench the new heads flowed 305cfm and the previous 195AFRs flowed 285cfm. My fingers are crossed.

 

1989GTATransAm,

"And the previous 195AFRs flowed 285cfm."

Not any more they don't

Thanks Bryce Mulvey!

 

Subscribing, I cant wait to see the numbers.

 

"Not any more they don't

Thanks Bryce Mulvey! "

Hehehehe. Next time we get together you will have to show me the numbers.

 

DYNO RESULTS!!! Well kind of. Had problems with the car but did get some information. We only got two good initial runs and the others were with the car bucking and the SES light coming on. Changed the ECM and got one of the two good runs than back to the same problem. Anyways as one might expect the initial tuning was lean across the board with over 14:1 AF ratio. We did manage to get it down to around 13:1 across the board but that was hard to detect with all the problems. Spikes galore on the dyno graph.

One thing for sure is we managed to gain around 3 tq and 3 hp over the previous best. That would be 420rwtq and 423rwhp. Now if we could have made a good run without all the problems it could have been more. One thing it did do was nose over right after 6500 rpm which indicates the end of the 2nd harmonic wave. That is exactly what the math said it would do. So I am on the right track with the 2nd Long Tube Runner project. I need to shorten the runners about an inch. I want the power to fall off after 6800rpm. There were two power peaks with one around 6200rpm and one at 6500rpm.

So, one thing this proved is that yes you can make power with long tube runners at a high rpm. If one considers 6500rpm high. The torque did come in earlier around 4300rpm which is what one would expect.

By the way driving home I got on it some and there was no breakup by the car and no SES light like it was doing on the dyno. Go figure. We will schedule another dyno day. I thought I had copied the charts but when I got home they were not on my Lexar drive.

 

So even with better tune, you dont suppose it would increase much more than 10-15hp at most? 13.0 to 1 aint bad, lean is mean. Abit richer may pick up some power but is this a sign the old heads werent as bad/tapped for power as originally thought?

Wonder what caused the problems?

 

Hi Orr

I think with this set up we might be talking 10 more horsepower or so over the other intake. With the new one I am hoping for more with the improvements that will be made. By the way you could see the slight dip in the curve between the 3rd and 2nd harmonic. The big dip was after the 2nd harmonic which was expected and the reason to shorten the runners.

One thing about it is we have increased the peak power range from say 4500rpm with the stock TPI to 6500 with a moded TPI.

So next time on the dyno I think we will bring everything and burn the chip on the spot if the Moates Ostrich won't do it.

 

Interesting results.. sounds like you need more cowbell..
Hows the fuelpump holding up? what are you running for a pump?? Just wondering?
keep plugn away you'll get it !!!

 

I have been crunching the numbers on the intake system length. For the 2nd harmonic wave pulse to die off at 6500rpm that means the effective length of my total intake runner system is 22" long. That would also mean that the peak pulse of the 2nd harmonic would be around 6000 rpm. Those numbers are way below my goals. I want the peak to be around 6400rpm and the die off above 6800 rpm.

I think part of the problem is the bellmouths inside the factory plenum are not that well defined and in fact in some cases the bell is acutally the roof of the plenum. This is contributing to the total length of the intake runner and increasing it. The right way is to do what I have constructed as shown in post 323. This will give a well defined entry and a sharp wave pulse with increased energy. I will also get increased wave energy by increase the rpms where it comes in at.

So it looks like I am on the right track with the construction of the next LT runner project. My preliminary numbers appear to be right on tract as proven out with the dyno results of the first Long Tube runner project.

 

"Hows the fuelpump holding up?"

It is a factory pump as used in the Typhoon pickup. I think the number is EP-381. I have the fuel pressure cranked up to 4 bar or 58psi. So far so good.

 

It would be very cool if a adj length runner could be made some how..

 

unreal amount of hours you have in this, anyone tell you youre insane?


BTW youll like doing the Eddy base better I think. It has a few minor obstructions in it but overall I think it has good potential.

lol

 

Hmm, would have expected alittle bit more than that, but perhaps like you said, the intake was the restriction and the heads were not quite done yet. The old 195's likely could have supported abit more before dieing off as long as the intake could hold it.

I agree, you need to shorten/straighten the runners a few inches to push peak up into the mid 6K range. Power will definately jump up then.