Dakota W.

Disconnect everything on the wiring harness, let it sit for a day, then plug everything back in.

gta_knight

How will that help? I did unhook the battery before i locked the garage last night

Dakota W.

It will help because you'll go back through everything, making sure you didn't miss ANYTHING, and on the off chance that you did, you'll see it. For whatever reason, sometimes leaving it alone makes it work. I was going through a lot of similar stuff with my car, where I'd get one thing fixed that wasn't done proper, and then 12 other things would break. It sounds to me like you're getting pissed at it anyway, so a break would be good.

keykey

Sounds like when my fuel pump relay connector was broken (backed out conector pins)... ran worse and worse until it stalled, then it didn't start after stalling. waited 'til the next morning and it ran great again, and then repeat same scenario when it had been idling for a while.

gta_knight

i will add that to the list of things to check then mate thanks

gta_knight

Yup im really pissed at it to be honest, i thought i would of been back on the road by now. I have one big show every year in September which i need to be at, so im starting to stress a bit thinking i might miss it if things keep going wrong, i havnt even tried to shift through the gears yet either, and the whole front end is still apart and needs putting back together etc etc

Anyway, my friend who done most of the wiring says next weekend he wants to unplug the ECU and check every single pin against my factory service manual to make sure each wire is going where it should incase something has gone wrong, it might take a few hours but it sounds like a good idea as we can rule out the wiring harness that way.

I got some new plugs yesterday but they were the wrong ones so im waiting for the right ones to come now

gta_knight

Actually if it was the fuel pump acting up would i not get a low or fluctuating reading from my pressure gauge ? ive got a steady 45psi with the engine running

ploegi

What do you get when the engine ISN'T running?

gta_knight

fuel pump primes as usual and the gauge goes to 45psi, maybe just a little under but when running its on that too, and increases a bit when reving the engine

gta_knight

Well i checked all the fuses, i went round the wiring harness looking for anything that might of moved or been snagged with the engine running and it all looks fine, i checked the connectors on the relays and they look fine, nice n clean.

Urgh, im just out of ideas now, i think its finally defeated me. It was running smooth at higher RPM then all of a sudden dropped the RPM's and started acting up and running rough, could some component of failed right then and there as it was running ? and now it wont restart because said part is broken ?

8Mike9

You have to go back to basics now.

Put your timing light on the wires, and while cranking it over, make sure they all have spark.

If so, shoot a spot of ether/starting fluid through the intake, if you have spark, then the staring fluid will try to start the engie(DO NOT CONTINUALLY SPRAY THE STARTING FLUID) just a short bust or two, put the can down, and try to start it.

Dakota W.

Usually running smooth(er) at higher rpms means a timing issue, or a dead cylinder. 8Mike9 has the right idea.

gta_knight

Thanks guys, i will try spraying some throttle body cleaner in while cranking, i just need another person to help.

i had an unexpected visit tonight, the guy from the engine place was passing ad stopped off to see how it was going, and he also came with info.
He read up again on the valve clearance and he thinks the nuts should only be tightened a half turn, but we went off my factory service manual which says one and 1/4 turn ! So im getting conflicting info here

when

8Mike9

For your valves....if running

Back off till they clatter...then slowly tighten until clatter stopps (this would put just past "just tough method I'll describe later)...then 3/4 of a turn.

Now, since not running, I'd back all the valves off a bit, spin engine over awhile (disconnect coil wire "just in case", let the lifters "pump up".

Now, bring #1 to TDC...while spinning the PR on #, JUST as you feel the slightest drag, rotate 1 more full turn (this is "just touch) and how it is done at the factory.

Now, look at your manual, it should tell you all valves that can now be adjusted.

Been a bit, but rotate another 360 degrees, and your manual will tell you the rest of the valves to be adjusted.


I don't know if the engine will start on TB cleaner...but...if you get a can of Ether/starting fluid, and spray a few short bursts into the intake, you'll have plenty of time to get to the car and spin it over...

Just pull the air cleaner housing, etc first, don't worry about reattaching it before you turn it over

8Mike9

PS...No factory manual will say 1/4 turn...at least not a SBC related FSM

Dakota W.

Throttle body cleaner actually makes it harder for an engine to start.

gta_knight

ok i wont use my throttle body cleaner, lol

As for the valves, i dont know where hes got this information from, but i thought using the specs from my 87 manual would be gospel !

8Mike9 that is what we done first time, you can adjust some intake and some exhaust at TDC, then you turn the engine 360 as you say and you can adjust the remaining ones, and they were tightened 1 + 1/4 turn as per the manual.

For the short time the car has been running, especially on the last run where it was idiling a bit high and was actually sounding good it felt good and smooth, nothing like the initial startup.

8Mike9

Sorry...I now see the "one" in your post.

But "one" full turn will be fine at static (not running)...what can (and often does occur) is the lifters will bleed down (these are hydraulic, not solid like you mechanic may be used to?) and if adjusted when compressed some, then they will bee too tight...and the valves-while running, will not fully close.

Back to my "back them all off a bit...start it (if it will)...back off to clatter, tighten to no clatter, then 3/4 a turn."

Good way to ensure you have all the lifters pumped up and adjusted properly...messier...but has worked for longer than I've been alive

gta_knight

Cool man, ive never adjusted them with the engine running, my only concern is keeping wires out of the way while doing it.

So can you safely just loosen each nut and then tighten up 3/4 one at a time with it running, theres no specifc order of doing it as they are going up and down anyway?

I just need to get the engine actually running to do this now ! when my mate pulled a couple of plug wires with the engine running it made no difference in the way it ran, and because i checked spark going through the wires im hoping its the plugs that arent sparking themselves, i read someone elses problem on here while researching as he had a similar problem to mine with the car just cranking over, and he was getting spark from the plugs so couldnt figure it out, however he found that the plugs werent actually sparking when in the engine as they were failing under compression ! so he put new plugs in and it was fine, it would be nice if this was my problem but i wont hold my breath

One other part ive been told that might be at fault is the pickup coil in my distributor ?

8Mike9

Yes, could be dead plug...but still leads me back to firing order

Heck, could even be a bad wire(s) but having a few go bad at once is a long shot.

Again, if you'd mark the balancer at 90* intervals, then chase the firing order around...i/e 1-8-4-etc, you'd know for sure spark is happening at the correct time.

Now, don't mean to insult you, but you do know from front to back on the driver side of the engine is 1-3 5 7 and front to back on pass side is 2-4-6-8.

Just covering some bases.

gta_knight

No insult taken mate, explaining things in their simplest form is the way to go sometimes, lol.

Ive got the firing order down, i used my manual to make sure as i havnt memorised it yet. Ive hopefully got a few hours on sunday to work on it so im trying to think where is best to start, if my spark plugs arrive in time i will stick those in, then mark the balancer and take it from there then spray some starter fluid in the intake and give it a go

Just going back to adjusting the valves with the engine running..... can you just do each rocker one after the other, theres no specific order to do it ?

8Mike9

Correct, no specific order.

gta_knight

I had a spare hour tonight so i stuck my new plugs in and thought oh well, why not and tried it and...it fired straight up !

felt a little bit of a miss with it idling but i still havnt had a chance to fine tune everything yet, so definitely a step in the right direction

ploegi

When you adjust the valves with the engine running, you will want the little clips that go over the pushrod side of the rockers, to deflect the oil that will otherwise be spraying everywhere.

Keoman

iTrader: (3)

Just use cardboard for adjusting your valves. Done it many many times, makes little mess and is the cheapest route.

Like this

gta_knight

cool, that will either work or my headers will just set the cardboard on fire straight away lol

Dakota W.

You put the cardboard in the top of the heads, not on the headers.

gta_knight

Well i didnt get a chance to do anything tonight, i went into the garage with high hopes, started the car up and it was quite rough, i let it run for a couple of minutes hoping it might warm up and smooth out but it just wasnt happening so i switched it off for a bit while i had one more check around the engine bay.

When i tried to restart it a few minutes later it just kept cranking over and over yet again. Back to square f*****g one !!

jamon8

iTrader: (3)

what did your spark plugs look like. that should tell you everything

gta_knight

I took no. 1 out and it was still clean, just a bit of discolouration down the middle part, and it was dry.

my new plugs have probably seen a grand total of 5 minutes worth of use.

jamon8

iTrader: (3)

what did the old plugs look like

gta_knight

Quite black, so after the first few runs, so i wire brushed them and they remained fairly clean, but were starting to go black before i changed them

Dakota W.

black means it's running rich. I still think it's timing.

gta_knight

Not surprising if its not firing at the right times etc

ok, i need to know for sure if my dizzy is in properly, in another thread someone had there's a full 180 degrees out and had to turn it right round, how does that work? I think i need to check TDC again

Keoman

iTrader: (3)

Take valve cover off drivers side, rotate engine until the intake valve shuts on number 1 cylinder, keep rotating until number 1 piston reaches TDC.

Take distributor cap off and point rotor at number 1 cylinder.

Your ignition system is now in the correct phase.

Dakota W.

Take the number 1 spark plug out, have someone bump the engine over while your finger is over the spark plug hole, when air pushes against your finger you'll be close to TDC. That way you know you're on the power stroke and can't possibly get 180* out.

gta_knight

Right then...., took a few plugs out to rotate the engine so i could recheck TDC. So i got the balancer mark set of 0 with air coming out of the plug hole so i know thats right, then i took the dizzy cap off and the rotor arm is as pictured below.



Ive drawn a line showing its pointing at cylinder one, sort of? i took the dizzy out and tried rotating the rod in the engine then lining the notch in the bottom of the shaft to get it to sit right, but it would either sit facing dead ahead, or where it is now. So i dont know if this is right or if its a little off

I put a jerry can of fresh fuel in the car, then put it all back together and it started straight up.....but it ran really rough, i took my foot off the gas and it just died, then when i tried to restart it, guess what.... crank crank crank.... urgh. It wasnt even running for 40 seconds.

So, im really starting to get annoyed now. Could it be the distributor, like the pickup coil or module, maybe they have let go or been damaged while being transferred from my old engine to this one, even though i just put it on a shelf while doing the engine swap so i dont know how.

I dont want to just start throwing parts at it and wasting money if theres something i can check or test etc.

Im really clutching at straws now though

Burnout91

The rotor must point at the Distributor Cap Terminal corresponding with #1 cylinder.

Bill

gta_knight

It is pointing to the right terminal when the cap is on im sure.

Is there a way to test the pickup could and ignition module with a multimeter to see if they are bad ? the problem doesnt lie within my distributor then im all out of ideas i think

gta_knight

Ok, i took the dizzy out again and checked the pickup coil and it tested good. I cleaned the terminals on the ign module too while i was at it, they looked ok but it never hurts to clean them up i guess.

I checked TDC again, that all checked out, and it fired straight up, and again ran awful, however this time it idled fine and didnt want to cut out, it wasnt sounding so good though just idiling, smoothed out a bit when increasing the RPM's though

So im either getting TDC completely wrong each time, or something else is screwed up with it. I couldnt find out how to check the Ign module with a multimeter so thats still questionable, although when my old Ign module let go, the car didnt do anything like this, it was idle up and down and cut out but it didnt misfire or run like this.

After all that i was sort of scratching my head a bit as you do in these situations, and i pulled plug no. 1 out to see what it was like and it was fine, i thought id rotate the engine one more time while i was at it and i swear to god, i could hear air escaping from the passenger side of the engine.

I was on my own at this point though so i couldnt turn the engine over and check for where the air was coming from on my own. All the plugs are in on the passenger side though so if this is actually happening what the hell could that be ?

I need to ask my dad to come back down and help me out again as i need another pair of hands for this one

riche

Didn't read through all your tread but I watched the video and it really sounds like a bad exhaust leak not a rocker tapping. If it is an exhaust leak then it could cause a false lean condition. Which would explain the black plugs and it running ok with the MAF unplugged (would ignore the O2 correction)

gta_knight

That video was the first start up, but it was the valves clattering, its still a bit noisy so i thought the exhaust does need tightened up a bit but it doesnt sound like that now

riche

The noise it makes is not as relevant as the leak itself. If there is a leak and it is letting air in then the 02 will read lean (0 to 0.4 volts) and cause a false lean condition. A good scan tool would tell you what your 02 voltage is. You already know you are rich bc of the plugs are carboned up. You need to see if the 02 is telling your ECM it is rich or lean. That will let you know if it is a leak or something else.

Have you tested your fuel pressure?

gta_knight

Yeah ive got a gauge fitted along with an adjustable FPR, ive set it at 45psi

riche

Ok good. New regulator? Does it hold 45psi after the pump goes off?

Reading through your timing questions I am still confused, are you disabling spark control and putting a timing light on it to verify 0 degrees of timing? It doesn't matter which way the distributor rotor points as long as it lines up with plug wire #1 and is sync'ed with a timing light.
** I just read through your tread, it looks like you are using a timing light properly, as long as you are not 180 degrees out and your timing tab is correct and your engine timing chain hasn't jumped you should be good with the timing.

Have you ever replaced your timing tab?

And why were your valves tapping so bad? Have you been in the engine?

I see you have headers, where is your O2 sensor located?

gta_knight

The pressure stays up there after the engine is turned off yeah, it must take a while for it to go back to zero. Yeah new everything just about, AFPR from Southbay, new Bosch 3's from Southbay, ECU memcal has been done by Brian of Tuned Performance to delete my EGR valve plus a few other tweaks, new knock sensor, new MAT sensor. The TPS, IAC, Ignition module, cap, rotor arm, leads are off my 5.0 engine as they were only a couple of years old and havnt even seen 2000 miles.

Ive pretty much established my timing is fine now, the cap is lined up with the rotor arm and its at TDC, i get 6* with the connector unplugged then it goes upto about 18-20 with it plugged back in as its off the timing tab, thats never been off the engine.

The engine was sent away to be overhauled, it was a good strong runner but needed the valve stem seals replaced, so i had a rebuilders strip it down, do the valve stem seals, headgaskets, new oil pump and flywheel along with all the other gaskets too as i bought the complete kit.

they hadnt adjusted the valves properly when putting it back together so one of the guys came down to mine and put that right last month

The o2 sensor is where it should be, ive got the hooker headers with the threaded part for the o2 sensor, and had these on my 5.0 engine before doing the swap with no problems at all, i put a new o2 sensor in when i fitted the headers too so thats only 3 years old and was totally fine before removal.

I was getting the crank and no start situation with the 5.0 engine before i pulled it and the only thing i had done before the problem started was fix my cracked fuel filler neck on the fuel tank, which stopped the smell of fuel and also made the vacuum HISSSSS present again when remove the cap, as it had disappeared before which i why i suspected something was wrong.

riche

Ok, This is pretty interesting...
If you have new injectors and FPR nothing should be leaking and causing a rich condition.
So I think it is imperative to get a reading from the O2 either with a scantool or voltmeter to see if it shows rich or lean.
The only other thing I can think of is the timing tab. Since you seem to be setting your timing properly what if the tab is in the wrong place?
Where is it located? directly under the water pump? Or to the drivers side a little?

riche

Something like this will help you Verify Top Dead Center.
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/pr...FQIT7AodhhMA_Q

You might be able to check TDC with a screwdriver. Line up the tab and slide a screwdriver in the spark plug hole till it stops (shouldn't go far). Then turn the motor at the crank with a wrench clock wise a little. You should have to slide the screwdriver in to touch the piston again bc the piston should have dropped.
Verifying TDC could really give you a piece of mind since you are setting the timing right. But if the cam was installed wrong and the timing gears were not lined up properly it will not show that.

I still think it is a fuel issue, false lean... but I have been wrong before...

gta_knight

thats the thing though they only stripped it to the heads, and didnt even take the timing cover off so that hasnt been touched.

Ive done TDC twice now, once by feeling the cylinder coming up, then the quicker method of feeling air coming out of the hole telling me its approaching compression, so then i just turned the engine a bit more until the mark was at zero on the timing tab. Im positive its correct, it was a smooth as anything when it was still in my friends car before he crashed the car, and actually afterwards too ! it still started and idled lovely and he could move the car around before deciding to part it out.

I did wonder if i had messed up installing the fuel injectors so i even emailed Julie at SouthBay and she said if theres no leaks they are fine, as they only go in one way !

Im still concerened about being able to hear air escaping from the passenger side even with all the plugs in ? so ive got that to check tonight and also the o2 sensor. Can i just unplug it and check the resistance on the connector ?

86iroct5

i think its your tune.... i had the same issue with my h/c/i car, every tune i got for my car that was a mail order it didnt work, from multiple people.... ran like **** sounded like it wasnt timed. put my stock tune in that was tweeked by a local guy and it ran, not 100% but better, im waiting to get it dyno tuned now, done with mail orders.. talk to your tuner again

it sounds like you have thoroughly confirmed that it is timed correctly mechanically