gta_knight

Hi all,

well ive finished the engine swap, and it starts up straight away but runs like an absolute pig, it feels like its firing on about 3 cylinders instead of 8. If you open the throttle it will rev but still misfires and will backfire a bit too, then if you let off the throttle it will just die. So i unplugged the MAF and it stays running with that unplugged but still runs like utter crap.

Ive set my fuel pressure to 45psi, the timing was way off so i done that tonight, set it back to 6, still no difference.

Just about every sensor is new or nearly new as on the 5.0 engine i had replaced loads of parts over the past few years like the TPS, IAC, Ignition module which is transferred to the 5.7. Ive fitted Bosch 3's from southbay, along with the adjustable fuel pressure regulator. ive had the ECU reprogrammed by Brian (Tuned Performance)

One stupid problem i have is i cant read the codes as the knight rider dash hasnt got my SES light connected, so i know i need to sort that out in order to get some sort of output from the car, but i was hoping it was something simple first of all to at least get it running somewhat smooth.

I pulled all the plugs and cleaned them, some were quite black, some were ok, that didnt make any difference either, all my leads are good, dizzy cap and rotor arm are like new.

Seriously, this car is testing my patientce once again, to the limit this time

84TransAmEU

iTrader: (1)

I do have maybe the same problem right now. In my case I found out today, that all 4 cylinders on the passenger side ignite, the 4 cylinders on the driver side do not ignite. I do have a spark on all 8 cylinders though.

I thought about low fuel pressure - I will check. In your case it is ok.
Then I thought about the injectors - I installed new ones 2 days ago - same problem.

I get Trouble code 22 which is Throttle Position Sensor - low voltage. I replaced the TPS sensor and ECM from my other GTA - same problem. Voltage on TPS wire is ok.

There is no fuse or relais that might be broken?

gta_knight

I dont think a broken fuse or relay is the problem, it feels like something simple but i just dont know what, like its not getting enough fuel, air or spark. I havnt checked all the plugs for spark but i know number 1 is getting spark no problem from doing the timing tonight.

But knowing these engines and the wiring its bound to be something thats a complete pain in the **** to find and fix.

I just dunno where to start

gta_knight

There is a whine noise too which sounds cool like a supercharger ! however i dont have a supercharger...........is that possibly a big vac leak somewhere ?

Im not really clued up on the vacuum system to be honest. the air going into the engine is distributed to other places to create vacuum ? so theres one big hose that goes from the back of the intake to the brake booster, theres a little one on the other side that goes to the fuel pressure regulator and i took off a couple that i think went to the EGR valve as ive deleted that, theres just the little solenoid thing next to the coil with no vac pipes coming out of it, that wouldnt cause a problem would it as its literally connected to nothing in or out.

gta_knight

I got a video of the car running with the MAF unplugged last night....

darbysan

Check the fuses. There are two for the Fuel Injection, one for each bank.

darbysan

A vac leak will definitely make the engine run bad. Easy way to check is to turn the engine on, and then spray starter fluid around all the intake areas ahd hoses that could be leaking. If the rev's increase, you've found your leak. I found the runners very hard to seal on my first try. I'll bet you find some big leaks, based on your "Supercharger" description.

Dakota W.

Sounds like hissing in the video, which could be a vacuum leak. Have you checked your oil?

gta_knight

Oils good, i cranked it over for a while first, then checked the level and it had gone down a bit so i topped upto full

pretty certain its got a vac leak then so that's the first port of call

84TransAmEU

iTrader: (1)

Thank you for the info. I double checked now the fuse and voila: it is broken. A hair crack which I did not see the first time! Now it runs on all 8 cylinders, thank you!

8Mike9

GTA...recheck your firing order.

gta_knight

Firing order is correct, and with the balancer at 0 the rotor arm is pointing towards plug 1, could the dizzy still be a few teeth out or does that sound right

Kennerz

It's a TPI, you need to check EVERYTHING, to make sure all the set ups are correct, TPS, IAT stepper motor, re-check the distributor, recheck the wires, make sure everything is plugged in, and all grounds are good. That would be a good start. Took me months to get my car sorted after a rebuild. Went through all the set up basics and it starts on a half crank after sitting for months. Got to have a manual and get the basic stuff tuned. otherwise you will throw parts at the car that are not needed. You may need to adjust the rockers, who knows - you have to check. I guarantee if everything is sorted properly they will run good. one arching plug wire can be the difference betwen running strong and running rough. TPI is the worst when it comes to set up & getting the basics in tune, before even chip tuning. I've had one plug wire that wasn't snapped on fully make it run like your video. Got to be meticulous with a TPI. 6 degrees timing to start too. if that brown wire is not unplugged when you set base timing your timing will be off. seriously get a manual & do it right. You still have a problem after all that. You got a real problem. Vacuum lines all need to be good too. that is the pain of these cars - all these lame old systems need to be in synch, or else you will have less than desired results, guaranteed. every time. (I've owned a 5.7 TPI since 1990) Good luck!

Kennerz

[From my experience it's got to point(distributor rotor) to the exactly right spot, you could very well be off a tooth. One tooth off the timing gear and it runs like crap, guaranteed. Check and recheck.... I;ve had times where I THOUGHT it was right, was very careful, and it wasn't right. Check and recheck.... My car runs very good for a TPI now. Everything has to be right on the money..(They are hard cars to get set up when it comes to the basics I've found) Get a jumper wire and a digital volt meter to set the TPS. Make sure you follow the procedure to set the IAC stepper motor up right. Make sure to follow the correct procedure for setting the base timing. You can do NOTHING until these are set right. Then chase down everything else...Process of elimination. Run the firing order from plug to cap while looking at the manual, make sure you have no dead wires, in fact ohm your wires to make sure you don't have a dead wire. These are the 1st steps in ruling out other issues.

gta_knight

Hmmm i will check the distributor again, i guess its just trial and error? If i set it back to TDC and see if i can lift the dizzy and turn it one more notch and see of that helps

ive definitely got air escaping somewhere too so that's on the checklist

my leads and plugs were on the 5.0 engine and are fairly new and that ran great so hopefully it is the dizzy and vac leak combination

thanks for the input guys its a great help, so i will report back if i manage to get it running better

Joe Tag

iTrader: (4)

Adjusting the valves is certainly in order....clackety clack.

gta_knight

They were just done last Tuesday, so i dunno what the clattering is this time, unless its just the engine not firing properly that's making it sound like its a bag of bolts !

8Mike9

Doesn't matter where the distributor is, as long as:

Plugwires coming out of the cap are going to the correct plugs in the firing order

#1 plug is firing @ 6* BTDC (w/est disconnected)

gta_knight

So some are saying it doesn't matter where the dizzy is and some say its critical to be in the right spot.

i found my vac leak, and a sensor on the underside of the intake was unplugged so i sorted them and it was still crap, although the whine / hissing noise had gone that was about it.

i put the engine back to TDC and took the cap off and it does point to plug 1 but if you ran a straight line from the rotor arm to the plug hole it wouldn't be totally lined up..... So i dunno

one other thing is how do i know ive got the right injector plug on the right injector, they seem to sit right so i just went on that, if i swapped them around they would look to he sitting wrong if that makes sense

8Mike9

Also long as you have right bank injectors and left bank injector together, it won't matter as all the injectors on each bank fire at the same time...hence "batch fire".

Trust me, as long as it's timed off #1, and the firing order is correct....you could have #1 sitting against the firewall, #8 at 1 oclock...etc...

Edit:

You are disconnecting the EST bypass, and setting base timing to 6 degrees BTDC?

gta_knight

Yup, the connector with the tan wire is disconnected.

8Mike9

I still think you need to triple check the firing order...engine miss with a few black plugs...

And you're sure the cap/rotor and wires are good?

roger55

Timing chain jumped a link? It's a possibility.

gta_knight

I checked and re-checked today, i took each plug wire off and inspected it, they are all fine, and in the correct order, cap and rotor are like new, i managed to keep it running with the MAF unplugged again and the timing is dead on 6* with the EST disconnected

Ive got 45psi on my fuel gauge with it running, ive checked the injector fuses and they are fine. How do i know if the injectors are in properly or spraying ? they were pretty easy to install, they just pushed into the intake then the fuel rail popped ontop and it felt like they were nice and snug.

Ive been told that maybe my knock sensor is too tight, or not tight enough ? would that really cause this terrible running situation ?

One thing that is worrying me is the longer i keep the engine running i can hear it popping / backfiring but its not coming out of the exhaust, it sounds like its coming from the passenger side of the engine at the front ?!?!?

8Mike9

After you plug the EST bypass back in, does the timing go back up to 20+degrees?..it should.

Well, assume it does and is pretty stable, I'd make some chalk marks on the balance every 15-20 degrees.

The while the engine is running, go to each plug wire and find a chalk mark..

#1 I'd want to know that each plug is firing
#2, I'd want to know each plug is firing consistent ...i/e chalk mark not "moving"

Should take but 10 minutes to do the above.

The knock sensor along with the ESC, takes timing out...I don't *think* it would cause erratic timing, unsure.

One thing...you had a 305 before?

I do think the ESC module is different between the 305 and the 350...something to look into.

Tuned Performance

iTrader: (92)

ESC numbers

16126761 (ANRZ) is discontinued. Replaced with HKR for the 4.3l & 5.7L engines, and HKM for the 5.0l engines.
16022621 (BLH), is for 2.8l, 5.0l, and 5.7l engines.

Knock sensors are frequency based, IIRc the torque should be 14ftlbs If the sensor is to tight false knock can be reported.

8Mike9

I just checked on RockAuto

5.7tpi is standard #SF1000
5.0TPI is standard SF1010

gta_knight

I didnt bother to check it after i plugged it back in because after restarting the engine it was still just the same, but i will do that.

I did swap from a 5.0 yeah, however i even pulled my wiring harness as it was in rough shape, and replaced it with the one from the 5.7, the only thing that was wrong was the connector through the fender had to be cut off mine and soldered to that one as thats where the guy had the crash and it was crushed in behind the fender so he had to snip it there.

So the ESC is the one that was already attached to the harness for the 5.7

I have reused other parts from my 5.0 engine though

* The distributor, with ign module
* The TPS
* The IAC
* MAF sensor

I hope those are interchangeable :/

85Special

I've had that hiss, double check your IAC if all your vac lines are good. Mine went bad with no code, new IAC adjusted properly and the hiss was gone. Yours my just be out of adjustment or dirty.

MAF is not interchangeable between the 305 and 350. I have a 350 in a 305 car computer and MAF are 87 rest is 85 and she runs well... well when the cam is good anyway... She's broken ATM

gta_knight

I sorted the vac leak, it was the one that goes from the back of the intake to the inside of the car for the heater controls, the rubber connector was split on the underside so i couldnt see it, but thats sorted now

8Mike9

Your '85 had a different type of MAF, '87-'89 are the same for 305 and 350's..pretty sure.

Tuned Performance

iTrader: (92)

I hope those are interchangeable :/ They sure are, It sounds like ignition timing or valve adjustment. You can watch the timing with a timing light for the ecm retarding the timing or if you have access to a obd1 scanner or aldl to usb cable. Win aldl works in a pinch Im not a huge fan of it but making a cable is easy. Just make sure once you connect to the program if you try it take out the 10k resister after the data starts flowing from the ecm.

http://winaldl.joby.se/

gta_knight

Nah i havnt got a scanner or a cable to plug into the laptop im afraid, i might invest in one if i get it running though !

gta_knight

Ive seen a few posts of rough running TPI's relating to fuel.......... my car has been sitting in the garage since October last year so the fuel in the tank is from back then.

It couldnt be that could it ? i think fuel stays good for a couple of years, maybe just the octane level drops a bit but still useable.

85Special

Fuel stays good for a couple years if it is treated with a stabilizer. stay-bil or another fuel product for storage. Otherwise I think it starts to drop off rather quick... never really looked into how long.

ploegi

Airplane fuel stays good for a couple years. Automotive gas starts breaking down at about 3 months, and after 6, is pretty nasty. Add some premium gas, or, drain what's in there, and then put in some fresh gas. Eliminate one possibility at least.

gta_knight

Thanks guys, i will be putting fresh fuel in for sure, however...

PROGRESS !!

i found another vac leak and once i plugged that one there was zero hiss, and more importantly i can now run the car with the MAF sensor plugged in ! its idiling a bit low and still feels sputtery down low, but if i rev the engine up once it gets past 2krpm it feels nice and smooth and sounds great

It sounds like my exhaust is blowing at the header from the back on the passenger side as there is that sort of chuff chuff sound, but i know its not, could that sort of sound be caused by something else ? its almost as if it needs new plugs and it will be fine sort of thing

VincentZ28

iTrader: (2)

Did you stop that valve from ticking?

gta_knight

Yeah the valve lash was done last week

gta_knight

Well its just not firing on all 8, it idles ok though and revs good so.im hoping that's the lady hurdle

now in wondering if my ignition coil and module are compatible with the 5.7 that i took from the 5.0 because they were new too

ive also ordered some Champion plugs, quite a few people have said the NGK ones ive got in don't agree with these engines.

i need to check for spark though

Dakota W.

Accel makes really good plugs, champions are cheap junk. Accel & Delco are all I buy for my domestics.

gta_knight

Well i get different opinions on plugs off everyone i talk too so its hard to choose, and i did have champions on my first plug change years ago and had no problems with them.

I checked each lead with my timing gun last night to make sure spark was going to each plug, which it was, so either one of the plugs is bad, or theres something else going on on one or two of the cylinders, which is causing the mis and the popping noise.

Please god just let it be a crapped out plug

8Mike9

Scary moment here, I'm thinking...

Okay, if you were to to line up the mark on the balancer to the timing tab, then take a piece of chalk and every 90*'s, put a mark across the balancer, you'd wind up with the original mark, and 3 chalk lines.

Now since the V8 fires every 90*'s of crankshaft rotation, you should then be able to disconnect the EST...start at #1 and see the original mark, move the light to # 8 and see the next mark...and so on, all should be at the 6-8* (or where you have #1 set) if you went spot on with your chalk marks.

Make sense?...again, just thinking here...scary.

This would tell you if all plugs are getting voltage/spark and at the correct time.
Ofcourse it won't rell you what shape the plugs/wire/etc are in, but might give you a piece of mind.

VincentZ28

iTrader: (2)

U have crossed plug wires. 1 8 4 3 6 5 7 2

gta_knight

That does make sense yeah, im pretty sure all thats ok, im getting spark to the plugs, the timing is at 6*, with the EST plugged back in it looks like its sitting at around 18-20* as its off the timing tab on the balancer

All my coil, module, cap, rotor arm and leads are less than 2 years old and my 5.0 was running great before i pulled it out.

Ive been told it might be the valve timing not right and thats why its not firing on that cylinder, even though we checked that with the engine guy there, but who knows he might of got it wrong as he said he'd never worked on an American engine before and just used my manual ! didnt look hard to do though

My plug wires are fine, ive checked them twice to be sure

87hellbird

Check your rocker arms!!!! In the video the tapping makes me think a rocker arm or a few are coming off, in that case the valves wont open= rough running.

gta_knight

Yup they have all been done since that video. It now sounds like its only the cylinder on the back passenger side, #8 i think

Dakota W.

Were the lifters new?

gta_knight

No they were the ones already in the engine as they were checked and all good, apparantly

gta_knight

Ok guys, me and my mate had another look at it today and its sort of gone from bad, to good, to worse.......

We checked for spark at the plugs which i had, then he checked the injector pulse and that was also fine

we were sort of scratching our heads then the car on its own increased RPM's to about 2k and was running real smooth, i got back in the drivers seat and gave it a few revs and it felt great and the revs came down to about 800 so i started smiling. By time i got back out of the car and walked round the front it dropped the revs quite quickly and started stumbling around sounding like it was going to cut out so i shut the engine off.

And now, it wont restart, it just keeps cranking over and over, even after i left it for an hour it just cranks. What in the name of all that is holy is wrong with this P.O.S car

I even pulled the codes after it wouldnt start and nothing, it just keeps flashing code 12, no saved codes.