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Second crank issues

Old 11-04-2018, 08:25 AM
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Second crank issues

Hi, I have a 1992 z28 5.0 TPI Iím working on. It recently had issues where wouldnít crank, dialed it in to being the pickup coil. So new coil and whole new distributor and it finally runs great. It STILL runs great BUT I recently noticed if I go and start the car, shut it off and start it again it just wonít start, I can get it to start but it runs really bad. It ONLY does it in that matter. I can literally daily drive the car A long as I donít have to move the car quick or hop in and out of it itís fine. Hadnít done a second crank in less than 10 minutes till now and now is when I notice I can duplicate it everytime. It has fuel and spark, so Iím betting itís a computer or sensor issue. The service engine soon light does come on when it goes into that phaSe. I have to check the codes but I imagine have to duplicate it again so Iíll try that next weekend. Mean time, any ideas? Could it be the MAP sensor? Not sure how to post a video here but I have videos.
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Old 11-04-2018, 02:41 PM
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Re: Second crank issues

Just a guess it could be a bad ecm. Do you have injector pulse when it doesn’t start. Is the tach moving, assuming you have a tachometer.
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Old 11-04-2018, 02:53 PM
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Re: Second crank issues

Yup tach moves. I verified with video. Itís just weird as like I said before when it doesnít do it(which is most of the time) it runs great!
smooth and powerful. Itís crazy!
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Old 11-06-2018, 06:09 PM
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Re: Second crank issues

Was very close to making this car a weekend or weekday driver but now Iím having some major concerns with it. May just throw her in garage until I can LS swap it! Lol! Really wanna enjoy the car as is though.
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Old 11-10-2018, 05:04 PM
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Re: Second crank issues

Went to check the codes and it just blinks once, then twice...over and over same pattern
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Old 11-10-2018, 06:38 PM
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Re: Second crank issues

Originally Posted by Tuned Performance View Post
Just a guess it could be a bad ecm. Do you have injector pulse when it doesnít start. Is the tach moving, assuming you have a tachometer.
do you have injector pulse when it wonít start ?
have you checked for spark when it just cranks ?
fuel pressure ok when it just cranks ?
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Old 11-10-2018, 06:46 PM
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Re: Second crank issues

I can hear injectors ticking, I have spark, and yea the tach moves. I run codes and only get code 12 repeated over and over. I can get the car to sort of almost start if I give it throttle but I backfires and/or stumbles. I adjust timing and the changes are minimal so donít think itís that. Itís gotta be electronic. Car went from started up perfect running fine, I shut off to step away for one minute or less, go crank and nothing. Hasnít started since. Fuel pump was replaced recently and I can hear it so somewhat rule that out. Plenty of pressure at the rail too.
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Old 11-11-2018, 12:07 PM
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Re: Second crank issues

maybe try unplugging the ECM and wait a few min then plug it back in?
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Old 11-11-2018, 04:21 PM
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Re: Second crank issues

Yea thatís next, gonna remove it and clean the plugs and make sure all the pins are intact nor loose. Maybe throw some dialectic grease on them as well.
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Old 11-11-2018, 04:24 PM
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Re: Second crank issues

dialectic grease is not needed on the ecm connections.
I would advise not using it.
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Old 11-11-2018, 08:24 PM
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Re: Second crank issues

Originally Posted by Tuned Performance View Post
dialectic grease is not needed on the ecm connections.
I would advise not using it.
Thanks for the tip! Just figured the south Florida humidity and possible leaking t-tops would cause moisture down there. Iíll just make sure connections are good then.

Came across a few posts online of similar issues of the code 12 just repeating over and over and it lead to a burnt ecu. But some werenít even camaros just obd1 cars. So that left me skeptical.
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Old 11-12-2018, 04:13 PM
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Re: Second crank issues



So isnít the computer by the passenger side kick panel? I thought it was remove panel and it would be right there but all I see is a plug. Regardless I wiggles it and same thing. It just cranks and jumps like itís almoat about to start but just doesnít. Itís like if it was completely out of timing or something. I think Iím gonna order another distributor!
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Old 11-12-2018, 04:39 PM
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Re: Second crank issues

The ecm is in a holder under the dash. Passengers side under the dash speaker accessible under the dash.
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Old 11-18-2018, 01:39 PM
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Re: Second crank issues

Checked out the plug on ecm everything looks unharmed or burnt. Looks almost brand new actually all the wiring and etc. Damn car was definitely stored well, always surprises me the shape itís in on the inside lol! Too bad now it donít run worth a damn!

I continue to get the code 12 when I try to run diagnostics. Any place I can maybe send the computer out to for them to check it out that you guys know of? I saw hawks has some computers but I donít imagine they fix them. Just donít want to go and buy another for it to do the same thing. Or worse itís sometbing else that is burning up the ecm and itíll just burn the new one.
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Old 11-18-2018, 01:59 PM
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Re: Second crank issues

I don’t know of anyone who does refurbishing on the ecm. I do have a good working ecm for your car for $55 shipped in the states. I just don’t know for certain that’s your issue.
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Old 11-18-2018, 02:33 PM
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Re: Second crank issues

Originally Posted by Tuned Performance View Post
I donít know of anyone who does refurbishing on the ecm. I do have a good working ecm for your car for $55 shipped in the states. I just donít know for certain thatís your issue.
I am willing to try that out but my worry is itís something shorting the ecm out and then I install a new one and ruins that one too.
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Old 11-18-2018, 08:38 PM
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Re: Second crank issues

It sounds like the ecm is resetting. Just a guess I’m not positive that’s your problem.
if the ecm was shorted out with a 5v reference line the car would run horribly.
The code 12 is normal but if I’m reading the first post right the check engine light stays on at times?
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Old 11-18-2018, 09:31 PM
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Re: Second crank issues

Would never come on at all before. But now the car wonít run and if I get it too run by giving it gas it does indeed stay on. Itís also stays lit and blinks while I try to start it. Things I never saw it do when it ran fine.
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Old 12-21-2018, 09:41 AM
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Re: Second crank issues

So still at the issue. Car wonít run. I changed the distributor. Took me a while to get a warranty. Same problem. Iím getting spark Iím getting fuel cuz I can smell it. Just donít understand whatís going on.
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Old 12-21-2018, 10:01 AM
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Re: Second crank issues

Now Iím smelling fuel, I can hear the ticking but itís not a constant tick pattern. Thinking it can be injector issue. Which what controls the injectors? The ecm right? The injectors themselves should be ok, they were running nice and smooth before why a bunch go bad now all of a sudden. I definitely have spark although the wires donít seem that old they are flimsy and probably cheap ones. So Iíll order a nice set anyways but highly doubt itís the spark wires.
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Old 12-21-2018, 10:15 AM
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Re: Second crank issues

Sorry for so many responses just troubleshooting the thing. I tried unplugging the tps and the IAC and that helped but still no idle. So plugged them back in and removed the vacuum that goes to the canister on the driver side and now the car idles. High, but it idles!! So now what? Iím confused. Could it be the IAC valve?
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Old 12-21-2018, 07:43 PM
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Re: Second crank issues

Unplugging the iac and tps isn’t going to diagnose your issue. Making a large vacuum leak is helping the idle. Have you set the minimum idle speed ?
is the check engine light still on but no codes available?
there is only one injector driver so all the injectors pulse the same width.
if they sound different you might have a few bad injectors. You can always ohm them with the engine warm.
If they are the original multecs they are junk and should be replaced. The coils are notorious for failing.
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Old 12-21-2018, 07:58 PM
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Re: Second crank issues

Well now that the engine is cranked and running. No check engine light. Itís literally running perfect but with that massive vacuum port open lol! I went ahead and ordered the IaC valve as it was nasty and Iím gonna clean the throttle body letís see if that helps.

Last edited by liljon285; 12-21-2018 at 08:05 PM.
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Old 12-21-2018, 08:07 PM
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Re: Second crank issues

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Old 12-21-2018, 08:14 PM
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Re: Second crank issues

Originally Posted by liljon285 View Post
So still at the issue. Car wonít run. I changed the distributor. Took me a while to get a warranty. Same problem. Iím getting spark Iím getting fuel cuz I can smell it. Just donít understand whatís going on.
what did you set the timing to ?
did you do it with the est disconnected?
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Old 12-22-2018, 02:21 AM
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Re: Second crank issues

Almost sounds first off to me like you have weepy or bad injectors causing a fuel rich condition.
You might want to try a fuel pressure leakdown test.

I'll keep thinking while I review the previous posts again.

Hope that helps.
Tim
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Old 12-22-2018, 12:22 PM
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Re: Second crank issues

I ordered a new IAC valve gonna clean throttle body and start with that. Injectors are pulsing right and with the engine revving it donít denote a rich or lean smell from the exhaust. Also the SES light went away, not that it was much help when it was on anyways. The injectors I have to doubt, itís never low on fuel, the fuel pump is fairly new, and it always ran great. The problem is now just at idle. Adjusting the timing wasnít helping, so I set it back to where it always was. Need to pick up a timing gun to dial it in, but engine revs up and runs really smooth. Iíll update soon. Valve should be in by Monday.
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Old 12-23-2018, 03:58 PM
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Re: Second crank issues

Well I installed the IAC valve after a good throttle body clean. And low and behold that was it. She cranks up every time now. I will dial in the idle now when I get a chance to continue working on it as I ran out of time. The timing is still a bit off so will need to get a gun to dial that in. Big headache is gone for now at least. One step closer to making it my weekend car and not a yard ornament lol!
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Old 12-29-2018, 02:35 AM
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Re: Second crank issues

Awesome! Well done liljon. Great to hear.
Enjoy your ride.

Mine has been keeping dry and warm in the garage but given the current forcast
I just might be able to take her out once more on a dry and sunny day next week one
last time before her comfy winter hibernation

All the best
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Old 12-29-2018, 03:24 PM
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Re: Second crank issues

Yea little by little. Itís still starting a little rough when cold. But I havenít done a full reset to the idle. Gotta remove the factory cap on the throttle body as well. Want to remove the IaC valve and put a drop of oil on the stem as I only cleaned the throttle body and through it in. Didnít even do the full reset by jumping the obd port and etc. I also timed it to the recommended 6 degrees. But I feel it running a tad sluggish. Read somewhere a few ppl advance it a bit for smoother power? Is that closer to the zero or further away like at 8-10į? Just got the ac working well luckily so thatís also another plus. Iím thinking for sure next year itíll be ready to drive every other day haha. I also finally put some wheels I have been painting, gotta get fatter tires and the proper lug nuts tho. But feels good to progress the car a bit. Hard these days with a busy lifestyle!

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Old 12-29-2018, 03:25 PM
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Re: Second crank issues

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Old 12-29-2018, 11:38 PM
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Re: Second crank issues

Yep, yep sooo busy. I totally understand.
Thanks for the pic! Nice.
I'll think about what you posted and add anything I might suggest later.
But just off the top, consider pulling the spark plugs and maybe replace them.
When you get them all out, lay them in order so you know what cylinder the plug is for and take some pic's.
Note if any smell or are wet with gas or oil.
Consider changing the plug wires. I used Taylor 8mm pro series and I like them so far

Here is one pic of mine:
Hmm, pic not working. I'll try again later. May need it to be on a public server ?

Last edited by TAbracadabra; 12-29-2018 at 11:42 PM.
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Old 12-30-2018, 12:11 AM
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Re: Second crank issues

Yea I was thinking of doing the that next as well as n oil change as the pressure gauge does fluctuate a bit more than I like. But before I bought the car the old lady that had it, had a mechanic give it a tune up so everything is new. The wires are new but the typical cheap auto parts so maybe even just doing the wires will suffice. Car does run great, but maybe before with the first distributor it was advanced a bit and felt more powerful not sure. Definitely doing Taylor wires, always used them, theyíre great.
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Old 12-30-2018, 07:13 AM
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Re: Second crank issues

Glad to read you got going again. A little tip that just might help you out. I was having a similar problem a couple years ago. My car runs great, almost as good as the day it rolled off the line. Just like you stated in your first post sometimes when hot and I would turn it off for a few minutes and start it back up, it would stumble and stall. It also smelled bad when It would finally fire back up. Ran great again once running. This was also a random thing as it did not always happen. Well I started using non-ethanol Rec 90. My problem went away and has never come back. It also starts much quicker when cold. The car idled smoother and It felt more responsive. Our cars were built when ethanol was not around, the computer program is written accordingly. The gas is a little more $$ but I think it is well worth it.

What part of SoFlo are you in?
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Old 12-30-2018, 11:44 AM
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Re: Second crank issues

I am in Fort Lauderdale. Actually have a Wawa near me with rec fuel but itís 87 octane. Iíll try that.

So so this morning I attempted to reset the IaC and set the idle....but weirdly enough after jumping the adld for 30 seconds then disconnecting the valve, I go to start the car and it just wonít idle down. It stays at like 1200-1500 rpms. So I did my best to tinker with it, and also timed it up to about 8į, itís running and idling fine. It still has trouble cranking on second tryís but Iím starting to think itís the mix of gas, shitty spark plug wires, and a weak battery.
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Old 12-31-2018, 03:03 AM
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Re: Second crank issues

Another thought, If you bump up the initial timing above 6į BTDC it will idle higher so you would need to pop that cap and adjust the idle speed.
There is a great tech stickie/article in the forum for adjusting the TPS, IAC, and idle speed.

Found it:
https://www.thirdgen.org/tpimod2/

Optimial initial timing depends on many factors and will vary even between the same engine configurations. You just need to find out what she likes!
Be sure to disconnect the EST Buypass connector near the blower (Tan wire with Black stripe) before you set the initial timing.
Note, that may throw a code so just reset the ECM when you are all done.

I'm currently running 11į BTDC initial timing, seems to be closer to what she wants
Typically running Sunoco 93 octane with 10% Ethanol.
I do use the Lucas Fuel Stabilizer, especially when she sits for a while.

Hope that helps,
Tim

Last edited by TAbracadabra; 12-31-2018 at 03:22 AM. Reason: Fix typo, add info
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Old 12-31-2018, 03:31 AM
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Re: Second crank issues

Originally Posted by TAbracadabra View Post
Another thought, If you bump up the initial timing above 6į BTDC it will idle higher so you would need to pop that cap and adjust the idle speed.
There is a great tech stickie/article in the forum for adjusting the TPS, IAC, and idle speed.

Found it:
https://www.thirdgen.org/tpimod2/

Optimial initial timing depends on many factors and will vary even between the same engine configurations. You just need to find out what she likes!
Be sure to disconnect the EST Buypass connector near the blower (Tan wire with Black stripe) before you set the initial timing.
Note, that may throw a code so just reset the ECM when you are all done.

I'm currently running 11į BTDC initial timing, seems to be closer to what she wants
Typically running Sunoco 93 octane with 10% Ethanol.
I do use the Lucas Fuel Stabilizer, especially when she sits for a while.

Hope that helps,
Tim

Yea I definitely followed the stickies. I noticed that as well the changing in timing factored the idle a bit but the more I advanced the the higher it would go. BUT at 6į and now the 8 it seems to idle perfectly in drive. Itíll prop up to 1000 in park but kinda settle in. As I said in previous post trying to reset the IaC and adjusting idle manually didnít quite work as i thought it would. Gonna try some new wires and fresh fuel and see how she behaves there. Gonna change the fuel filter as well although it looked pretty new last time I was under the car if I remember right.
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Old 12-31-2018, 03:47 AM
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Re: Second crank issues

Fuel filter is a good idea. Cheap and knocks that out of the equation.
Hope your fittings cooperate. PB Blaster and sharp knocks on the wrenches (Use 2, one to hold it )

Sounds like you know what you are doing and this is not your first rodeo, Hahaha.

Just wanted to cover the bases and provide info for any new readers of this this thread.

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Old 01-13-2019, 11:13 AM
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Re: Second crank issues

Finally made some time and swapped out fuel filter which looked like the oem one. Was full of gunk. And also did spark plug wires, wow what a pain those last cylinders. Car is running much smoother. Now all thatís left is oil change. Oil seems a bit thin as it came from up north. So pressure at idle drops down more than Iíd like. I drove it around a bit once it warmed up and runs very smooth. Good smooth power even through the shifts.

Now one thing I noticed is Speedo is not working. And I canít for the life of me remember if it did or not. I do remember checking the miles making sure those worked since it has 92k miles wanted to verify that. And I remember that working. These come with an electronic speed sensor right? Because I donít notice a tv cable either at the throttle body.
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Old 01-14-2019, 01:48 AM
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Re: Second crank issues

I believe the speedo in your 1987 IROC (per your profile) is cable driven. From what I recall the electronic VSS speedo on Z28`s
and IROC-Z`s were for post 1989`s. The Pontiac`s started electric speedometers earlier.
I could be wrong on the dates, maybe another forum member could chime in and verify.

Maybe look at the tranny and its tail shaft to make sure what you have. I know my 1986 IROC-Z is cable driven.

Last edited by TAbracadabra; 01-14-2019 at 02:00 AM. Reason: Add caveat, request for verification
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Old 01-14-2019, 07:03 AM
  #41  
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Re: Second crank issues

Woops gotta update that. Itís a 1992 Z28 5.0 TPI. I checked again and saw the cable, itís just routed under the intake so didnít notice it at a quick glance.
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Old 01-15-2019, 04:54 AM
  #42  
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Re: Second crank issues

Originally Posted by liljon285 View Post
Woops gotta update that. It’s a 1992 Z28 5.0 TPI. I checked again and saw the cable, it’s just routed under the intake so didn’t notice it at a quick glance.

Ok, so I'd guess the cable under the intake is the TV cable.
Good to know. The speedo is something different all together.
Given that you now have a 1992 Z28 it should be electronic VSS.

A quick search on the forum or using the site:thirdgen.org then your search terms
on google will return many results.

Please review them and post back with any questions and/or your resolution.
Thanks!

Hope that helps.
Tim

Last edited by TAbracadabra; 01-15-2019 at 05:20 AM. Reason: Add info for google site: option
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Old 01-15-2019, 11:12 AM
  #43  
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Re: Second crank issues

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Old 01-15-2019, 12:27 PM
  #44  
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Re: Second crank issues

And where is C1 located? I read on a few posts itís most likely the speedo as if itís the ecu or the vss itíll throw a code?
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Old 01-15-2019, 12:55 PM
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Re: Second crank issues

C1 is a optical signal. I’m not sure how to measure it hz maybe. The connector is at the ecm.
lack of Vss signal should throw a code 24. With a automatic transmission you will loose tcc lockup. The most common failure is the instrument cluster itself.
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Old 01-15-2019, 01:38 PM
  #46  
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Re: Second crank issues

Yea thatís what Iíve come across a lot. Weird that just the speedo gives out due to that design. Is there a company that fixes them or have to salvage one and risk it not working too?
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Old 01-15-2019, 01:41 PM
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Re: Second crank issues

I’m not sure if there is a reputable company that does repairs.
You might want to post a ad in the classifieds wanted section.
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Old 01-15-2019, 03:17 PM
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Re: Second crank issues

There are a few places that fix speedometer/odometers on this thread. If your tach is messed up that’s a easy fix.
https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/inte...roken-but.html

https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/tran...ds-double.html

http://paspeedo.com/

http://www.scottspeedometer.com/



Last edited by Tuned Performance; 01-15-2019 at 03:25 PM.
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Old 01-15-2019, 04:56 PM
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Re: Second crank issues

This one says all gauges work on the item description

https://www.ebay.com/itm/90-91-92-CH...ty!20876!US!-1
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Old 01-18-2019, 12:05 PM
  #50  
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Re: Second crank issues

Wow thanks guys. I try to go on here as much as I can but I tend to disappear very busy. I ordered a speed sensor as it was about $30 to give that a shot. If I see no changes Iíll jump on a cluster. I have a dash pad to install there anyways so Iíll hold off on throwing it on that way I just use one whole day to take apart whole dash ha.
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