RB83L69

Sounds like a real mess.... you're not the first one there, you're following behind somebody else that broke the bolt and gave up and just stuck it back together

Confuzed1

iTrader: (4)

Thx for the link RB......

It's not like I was trying to break any bolts. Actually I kinda think it was broke already.

Not like it could've been prevented anyway, and as I said, someone's been in there before I think. I took a couple pics of where I'm at:

OK - for some reason the file is too big, and I can't post the pic....

Chickenman35

Ooooohhh.... this can be a horrible mess. Yeah the bolt broke. Quite common. I put a new one in everytime I pull it out.

Here's how I got my broken bolt out once. The pin is magnetic...but it's pretty hard to find a magnetic pickup small enough to get it out....so I made one.

1) Position the cross pin so that is free in the bore...IE no load on the lock pin.

2) Remove the right bearing cap to get some working room.

3) Get a long thin screwdriver that fits down the hole. We're going to make a strong electromagnet so make sure that you have room to wrap some electrical wire around the screwdriver shaft.

4) Cut the "blade" end off the screwdriver and grind it flat. Wrap the screwdriver on the handle end with 16 or 18 guage wire . The more coils the better. 10 or 12 at least.

5) Yah gotta make some kinda " load " for our contraption or the wire will burn up. I used one of those Emergency 12 volt trouble lights that hook up to a car battery.

6) This is gonna take two people so grab a buddy right now. Get a 12 volt Lantern battery. Hook up the trouble light in series with the electromagnet tool, leaving the negative end unconnected for now.

7) Buddy connects last wire to battery...wires gonna get hot so work fast. Gently pull the pin out....and pray!!!


Note you can use car battery in a jiffy...but it's kinda risky. Lantern battery much safer.

Good Luck.

Tom 400 CFI

Chickenman, that was a great post! I like it!

Confuzed, Between RB and CM35, you pretty well covered on the broken pin dilema.

RB83L69

Here's the parts in question.

Confuzed1

iTrader: (4)

Here's what I pulled out...

Confuzed1

iTrader: (4)

See if this works...

RB83L69

Well I guess you now know how much is left behind.

Confuzed1

iTrader: (4)

Chickenman35 -

Thanks for the reply! What you're saying sounds kinda "MacGyver" like - ....I woulda never thought of that one myself!!

I suppose if it doesn't work, I may have to remove the whole rear and see if gravity will work, and see if the pin falls out -
maybe...

What a mess. If you see the large pic I posted, there's plenty left in there. No wonder I could'nt tap out the pin!! I'm a little concerned that there may be part of the threaded section of the bolt in there too....

And thx for the pic RB83 - Don't feel offended when I say "I didn't want to see that"!!!

I'll try what you guys say with the magnet. I already tried using an awl and scribe - no workee......

I'll post back.

CamaroMike

Lightly skimmed the post and did not notice anyone addressing a potential problem. What kind of bell housing are you using and have you checked the alignment between the bellhousing and crankshaft. Side loading the input shaft will easily cause a vibe but you said the vibe came through the clutch pedal. Does your seat vibrate also or just the pedal. If just the pedal, then I would head to the tranny/engine assembly. If the seat vibrates, head the the rear end. The jack stand idea sound very good to me. A bent axle or worn diff bearing could easily cause your problem. Take the driveshaft out and insert an old yoke without the driveshaft attached into the tranny, run the engine/tranny assembly through the gears and see if there is a vibe. If there is not then the rear is the only place to go!

Chickenman35

Usually the threaded end comes out intack. The weak point is the just below the threads.

PS: When I said wrap the screwdriver with wire at the handle end I wasn't quite clear. I should have said wrap the screwdriver SHAFT with wire near the handle end.

McGyver used to be one of my favorite shows

Confuzed1

iTrader: (4)

I hope it makes a strong magnet!! I just tried using a regular magnet and an allen wrench. No work.

I'll try your electro-magnet tomorrow.... Did you see the pic I posted below RB's??

I hope it's all of the threaded part that came out. I only have like 7 1/2 threads showing..

Tom 400 CFI

You need to read the whole thing.

The vibration has been isolated to something REAR of teh tailshaft at this point. That eliminated the clutch, flywheel, inputshaft, bellhousing, etc,etc.

CamaroMike

excuse me!!!

Confuzed1

iTrader: (4)

I don't think it was meant as a bash, CamaroMike.

It's turned out to be a long post. Thanks for the advice though.

Do you happen to know any other tricks to get the rest of this pin out?? I'm all ears! (so to speak).

my3rdgen

I have a similar problem with my T/A, it has the TH700R4 though. I am asuming that it was the torque converter, I started rebuilting the tranny yesterday and am finishing it today. We'll see, I hope you can figure out what is going on with your car.

Tom 400 CFI

As far as getting that pin out,

I think the things RB and CM35 have offered up are great ideas, which is why I haven't added anything. If I were in your shoes, I'd be doing what they said. Here are two more suggestions:

1. I'd want to know how "loose" the pin is, and you could find that out by using an angle drill to drill into the bolt remains. If it spins immediately, then it should be easy to get out. If it doesn't spin, drill until it does, then pull the drill out, hopefully w/the pin.

2. Heat is an option too, but once you heat it, it will be awhile until you can handle the parts again, should the heat not work. I'd save that for last.

I like the magnet idea. I think I'd persue that first. MacGuyver used to be my favorite too!

Confuzed1

iTrader: (4)

I'm not discounting either RB's idea or CM35's....I plan to work on it tomorrow. I tried an awl and scribe to see if it'll spin.....doesn't seem to.

Next - electromagnet!!! If that doesn't work, then I'm kinda screwed, and I resort to drilling. No doubt I'll mess up the lock bolt threads doing it too.

Heat?? I'd definately have to clean all the oil out of it or I'd burn my garage down!! Not cool....

But - on a happier note:

I just spent 3K on my new engine!! Can't wait!!

Confuzed1

iTrader: (4)

Well, the rest of the Pinion Shaft lock bolt is not coming out.

Really, as far as I see it - only other option is to pull the whole rear, tip it on it's side and see if gravity will allow it to fall out. I can't get a good angle on it to drill it out. I'm almost certain I'll find a shot passenger side axle bearing and possibly a scored axle....127 bucks for a new axle???? Might be rear end swap time.

Gonna be a long expensive winter.

MrDude_1

yea, at this point id be shopping around for a diff axle... probly a 98+ one so you get the bigger rear disc brakes.... *shrug*

Tom 400 CFI

What about RB's idea of chopping the pin w/a torch, and buying a new one?

As far as a damaged axle from a bad bearing, they make sleeves that you can press on over the damaged shaft, to give a new bearing a new "inner race" so to speak.

Confuzed1

iTrader: (4)

Sure - I could chop the locking pin in half, if I blow torch through the side of the carrier. I'd have to get a new carrier etc. then.

If I chop the pinion shaft in half I could then remove HALF the pinion shaft. The other half would still be held by the locking pin....Yeah, I could cut low enough to allow me to pull the axles.

Or maybe I don't understand what "chopping the pin with a torch" means.....

I don't own a fire knife. Would a shop normally do this if they break a locking bolt??

Tom 400 CFI

I think you've got the right idea about "chopping the pin with a torch".

IMO, if you cut the pin low enough to remove the axle shafts, you can then remove the carrier, and that will allow you the room/mobility/access to really get after that locking pin.

What do you mean by cutting through the carrier? Does your carrier not have a window in it that allows you access to that pin? My old 10 bolt (Waaaay back when) did.

I don't know if a shop would "normally" do this, but I do know that I manage a shop, and if I were presented with this dilema, and all the above ideas had failed, I would do what ever I have to do to "make it work". And right now, this idea is all I can think of, short of replacing the entier rear, which seems rather expensive.

Confuzed1

iTrader: (4)

Well - yeah, for the pinion pin itself. I could cut it in half and get the half out that doesn't have the broken lockpin in it. Is that what you mean?

OK....another possibility I thought of. What if I drill right into the bottom of the pinion shaft, but near the edge where the pinion lock goes through??

Then I'll eventually drill right through the pin that's holding it in, then maybe I can knock it out w/out damaging anything else??? How hard is a pinion shaft?? Can it be easily drilled through??

RB83L69

Once you cut the cross shaft (not the pinion shaft!) you can get the axles out; once you do that, you can take the carrier out of the housing, and then you can actually work on it, like drill it or whatever.

On the other hand, your rear is now almost 20 years old, and has however many of whatever kind of miles on it, and has 26-spline (weak) axles, and IIRC isn't posi, and IIRC also has drum brakes. In other words, not a real good candidate for spending gobs of money in labor on, only to still have a weak, old, one-wheel-peel, drum brake rear when you're done.

If it was me, I would go find a PBR-equipped rear from a 90-92 car, and put my 3.73s in it, since it will just slap right up in your car.

Oh wait.... I wouldn't do that, since actually I already did do that! I got a 91 or 92 disc/posi rear. The only adaptation I had to do was to get the last 6" or so of the newer car's steel brake line (with metric fittings to match the rear) right before the junction to the rubber line, and splice it onto my car's (SAE) brake line. Your car is a 84 so you might not even have to do that. I didn't have to change the master cyl or prop valve, and the parking brake cables just plugged right into my 83 car's actuator. While I was at it, I added LCA reloc brackets to the newer rear, and had its axle tubes welded all the way around.

Confuzed1

iTrader: (4)

Sorry - you're right - I keep saying pinion shaft, but it's actually the cross shaft I can't get out of this stupid thing.

Can't argue that. As you know - I also have to take into consideration that I'll have a 400 in it by spring. I need at least a factory posi. The only one I've found around my area is a 3.23 (I think) posi from an 88 GTA....how big a diff will that ratio make in my cars performance as compared to a 3.73:1 ????

RB83 - You should know by now my car is NOT an '84.....it's a '83!! Darn near identical to yours!! (At least stock)....so it IS 20 years old!

So I have SAE brake lines and if I get a 91-92 posi with disc brakes the lines are metric?? I thought if I changed to discs in the rear, I'd have to change the proportioning valve?? - Thanks!!

RB83L69

Duh, my bad about the year, it even says so in your sig. Maybe I should learn to read.

Anyway, as it happens, the PBR system has very similar hydraulic requirements to drums; so similar in fact that in 91 & 92 IIRC the factory used the same MC & PV for both systems. The iron-caliper rear discs are very different though. So, it seems logical that if using the same parts was suitable for the factory, it should work well in our case as well. It seems to be just fine in my car.

As far as the lines, if you go back to the rear of your car, you'll see the steel line running back along the tunnel to the rear; and it will turn upwards and hit the bracket where it mounts along with the fitting of the rubber line. I cut mine along that upward stretch, flared it, and spliced it to the equivalent piece from out of the later-model car. Voilà. No other modifications whatsoever were required.

I did add LCA reloc brackets to the other rear, and had its tubes welded up, and then powder-coated it while it was out and all torn down; and the addition of the brackets required a corner of the parking brake bracket on the PBR calipers to be ground down. So maybe I should say that there was at least that one mod that my setup required. I'd recommend that you get the brackets and do the p-brake mod, because your car will probably wheel-hop violently from the 400's torque just like mine did.

The 90-up rear isn't the easiest thing in the world to come up with; you might need to just put yours back together like it is, and drive it till you find one. Then take your 3.73s out and put them in the newer rear when you get one.

ONEFINE8T9

heres one for you gu8ys, starts vibrating at 80 harder at 90 fells like im about to break something at 100 plus, heres the odd thing, put my foot on the clutch and the vibrating gets harder and faster???? someone please help, its a mostly stock 92 camaro RS v8 WCT-5 please help thanx

Tom 400 CFI

Follow the systematic, diagnostic steps outlined in this thread, and let us know what you found. This thread contains all the steps you need to take to diagnose a vibration.

This thread also contains a **** load of WAG's and decent but random suggestions, but if you read through these two pages carefully, you can separated the WAG from the "Step 1, step 2, step 3," etc. Good luck.

Confuzed1

iTrader: (4)

Hey RB83.....Do you mean I can actually take the ring and pinion gears out of my open drum rear and install those same gears in a posi rear??? If so, that's good news!!

As I mentioned above, I did manage to find a 3.23:1 posi that's in a 88 GTA auto right now......can I put my 3.73:1 gears in it and be done with it??

Sorry if that's a dumb Q - I know little about rear gear work.

Regardless, I've decided to do as you say and put it back together for now. I need to get my car a 1 time smog check before the snow starts flying so I can get my "Collector Plates"...

I'll have a lot of stuff to do to the car over the winter, like install a 400 sbc, SFC's, and now put in a posi rear to name a few....

No doubt, while installing all this stuff, I'll have many more silly Q's to ask you, Tom and others.

EDIT: I notice the number of people that have viewed this post....It's gotta be some kind of record!!

Confuzed1

iTrader: (4)

Anyone? Doesn't have to be RB83.....

Tom 400 CFI

Yes, you can re-use your nice gears and carrier in any 10 bolt.

Confuzed1

iTrader: (4)

Thanks Tom!!

At least there's a little bit of good news out of this whole thing!!....

CamaroStud1988

my car was doin that when i installed a new clutch. we had no idea why.we took out the clutch and rotated the pressure plate 180 degrees since we had no other clues,and resurfaced the flywheel n it was gone,but mine was more rpm than speed. it sounds like maybe a loose motor mount or warped pinion gear..

CamaroStud1988

oh,ever looked at the rear drums or rotors,maybe warped,or the e-brake is barely applied,maybe u moved in on accident?

Confuzed1

iTrader: (4)

Yeah, I've haad the clutch in/out of the car and reinstalled it in every position you can think of....it's strictly a speed related vibration. And it's in the rear.

I highly suspect that the pass. side axle bearing is shot, but I can't prove it since I can't get it apart!!

No reason to suspect clutch/flywheel anyway since it doesn't vib when car is in neutral and I can hold at any RPM - stays smooth...

I had the car up on stands and spun the drums with the tires off....they seem fine. There is a slight rub on the pass side though. But it doesn't seem to be the brake causing it because there's still a weird noise on that side even with the drum off.

Besides, like most Camaros in the 82-85 years, the e-brake doesn't work anyway! Cables shot....

Thanks for the ideas though!!

Confuzed1

iTrader: (4)

OOOps - double post...

CamaroStud1988

oh. hmm. maybe driveline outta balance, or bent input or output shaft of trans..could b a bad pinion bearing,or bent pinion. it could be tons of things.

Confuzed1

iTrader: (4)

I know it's a long post, but you should really read it.

You'll see I've done EXTENSIVE tests to conclude that the rear end is causing the vibration problem.

Tom 400 CFI

I second that. We've got some more WAG's going on here. Thoughtful, but not all that helpful.

How's the rear coming?

Confuzed1

iTrader: (4)

I gave up for the time being. I put it back together so I can get the car smogged in order to get Collector's plates. That should open the door for the 406 I'm putting in.

I'm keeping my eyes peeled for a 3.73:1 posi, with disc brakes. Preferrably a 9 bolt, but if I can find a 10 bolt for a reasonable price.....

Really, even if I do manage to fix the one in the car now (and I will), I still have a one-leg, drum brake rear.

I plan to push over 400 HP and TQ with the 406, so I'll end up replacing the rear no matter what!!

Steve

I have been reading through this post and there are some great ideas here. I have a 91 camaro with a new/rebuilt tranny from the dealer and a just recently rebuilt rearend with 3.42. I had vibration before my tranny went out at 90 or so and they did get worse with the new tranny. Now with the new rear end they are bad. I had the shop straighten/balance the driveshaft and the problem seems much worse now. When i first bought the car in 97 it was fairly quiet to speeds well over 100. How can you tell if the pinion angle is off or the tail shaft is bent? Also, how do you know if the rear end is ligned up straight with the tranny from left to right?

Thanks,
Steve

anesthes

iTrader: (12)

Almost all the stock 10 bolts i've pulled apart, the bolt holding the cross pin snaps.

A magnet usually gets it out in 2 minutes, if you tap the cross pin a little up and down.

-- Joe

LetsRock

Theres reason for that, this has to be the most informative thread on driveline vibrations Ive read at least!

This thread still needs closure though with a confirmed elimination of the vibration issue.

Dont let this thread die! This is the kind of thread you hope comes up first in a search!

Confuzed1

iTrader: (4)

Yeah, it'll get closure this winter. I plan to drop a F*RD 9 inch in, and I'm hoping everything with get smoother. I'm 99 percent sure it will.

I finally have my new engine in, and I need a posi bad - and a bigger exhaust!

If the thread helps anyone, then it's well worth it! There's good diagnostic info from guys in the thread, that's for sure!

maroguy1

Are you in need of a rear end. I am in Milwaukee and I have a rear out of an 88 rs with a posi and a high 2 rear gear. You can have it for 50$ complete.

abcx09t

What happened, this is like reading a great book only to find the last page missing? Did the vibe get fixed, did you get a new rear, did they ever find out who killed the Mr. Smith?

RB83L69

What he said.

Post it here when you get your 9" in (as I seem to recall you were planning on).

And what about Naomi?

Confuzed1

iTrader: (4)

Wow! The timing is impeccable for this old post to show back up!

Reason I say that is because I just got off the phone with Moser today, and the 9" rear is slated for shipment Tuesday..... I ordered it 3 days ago!

I decided not to waste a whole lot of effort to replace the axle on the 10 bolt because, after all, what do I have after its repaired anyway? A silly 3.73 open rear that would still need $$ to upgrade or replace.

After I get the new rear, engine and tranny back in this spring I'll know with 100% certainty whether it was the axle causing the vib problem or not.

But as I posted above somewhere, I'm 99% sure that axle was causing it. I think the butler did it.

abcx09t

The Butler did it with the WRENCH no less!