just thought id chip in my two cents worth...

Manual all the way!!! Wooo
way more fun to drive!

 

Hmn, I've swapped two cars from auto to stick, so you all know where I stand.

I'll take the Pepsi challenge with an auto any day of the week. I've seen a back to back test in the same car with both an auto and a stick, and guess what? The stick was faster. The auto was more consistent.

Downshifting an auto on an autocross course isn't the same as having a manual. Smoothness is what makes for fast times in autocross, and a manual is a lot smoother, because you can heel/toe to bring the engine back up to driveline speed. You can't do that with an auto.

I hear you with the money thing. I've got more cash tied up in my Camaro than I care to admit, and it still looks like a POS (needs seats and paint bad). I bought the parts for my T56 swap a piece at a time. I bought a used box and fully rebuilt it myself. I used the best parts available too. It just took me longer than if I'd done a super cheap swap.

As far as clean goes the swapped parts are about the cleanest part of the car. Everything looks factory. I really took my time and did everything right.

 

I agree with you that said the manual is more fun to drive. i have a speed and a auto i miss my 5 speed alot. the auto i just dont feel in control, it shifts way to late(from the factory) the stick i can choose when i shift, and i shift pretty damn fast! i still dont think i can do it as quick as my friends iroc but we'll see next spring. and my auto is nice because i can drink a pop while im driving! lol i wish i had a cupholder though....

 

You CAN re-use your stock driveshaft and torque arm with a 93-97 F-body T-56. Ask me how I know!

I will never own another automatic tranny as long as I live!
The 6-speed is the way to go!!

 

i have everything down to the last nut and bolt..

counting everything, from degreaser to the missing slave cyl nuts, to the pedals and counting small things like a new clip to hold the master cyl on the clutch pedal........ $1211.89

the only thing i dont have is the shift ball that i want. i want to get one of thoes white hurst 6spd ***** with the red button on the side... (for line lock)

other then that, i have everything... the master cyl and pedals is in right now... im pulling the auto out when i get off work tonight... should have the clutch bellhousing on before i goto bed..

tomarrow, i'll measure and cut the shifter hole, put the trans in, ect.. then just wire up everything and im set.

 

I swapped a t5 in just because I like to shift.. You dont have to cut up your car to do it either.. If you walked up to my car you would never know the differnece.. I didnt cut any wireing I used good connectors and spliced.. IF I wanted to change it back I could, I kept all of the old parts..

 

Manual trannies are for control freaks ...

At Bandimere, they have a "Stick Shift" class so those guys have a level playing field. The only requirement is it has to launch via a clutch (so a Lenco is legal). Of course, it's been won the past two years by a guy who's also competitive in "normal" bracket racing (4-speed 1st gen 454 Camaro).

I often think about converting the Camaro over to a T5 or T56, but my daughter has talked about racing it while I race the '57, so...

 

Hey it's your car...


But as for all these people stating that Auto trannys are better at the strip, more consisent, etc..

That's a FALSE blanket statement.

ALL things being EQUAL, a standard tranny puts more power to the rear wheels....

Now I don't argue that driver skill plays a HUGE Part...

Any of you "auto" guys ever hear of Ronnie Sox? Search on him...


Sure, it's alot harder to correctly launch a stick at the track...

And if you're worried about missed shifts, etc, stay with the Auto..

But it boils down to the DRIVER.


I see it every weekend at the track...

Put a stick 4th gen besides an auto 4th gen..IF the stick driver can launch it, and shift correctly, it'll beat the auto everytime.

 

Yea but I think the minute you throw a shiftkit in the car (talking drag, not autocross) the stick shift gets blown out of the water.

 

Not to mention a proper stall and you'll rape a stick off the line. Ever heard of tq multiplication?

 

You explained the "torque multiplication" theory earlier. The fact remains, it's a fluid coupling and that means slip. STOCK FOR STOCK, A STICK IS CAPABLE OF QUICKER TIMES. Just read any car mag that tests two versions of the same model.

I understand that you can make an auto launch hard for drag racing purposes (converter etc.), and it's more consistent. Why do Pro Stockers use manuals (Lenco?), however?

As for fuel econ. go check a window sticker on any car available with an auto and a manual. The manual always has a higher rating. Proof positive. As for emissions, no relation there that I know of.

The guy who described F1 trannies as sequential manuals with no torque converter was right on the money. A computer just controls shift points because the races have such high stakes, no room for an error. It's far from an automatic.

I'm glad there's no argument in the road racing department, I'd have to throw a fit.

Later

 

It's not a theory, it's a fact. As far as the gas mileage goes, if you've got a lockup converter the mileage will be exactly the same. The only reason most manuals get better mileage is because they have a higher overdrive gear. The 700r4 has an overdrive ratio of .7, while the t56 has an overdrive ratio of .5. That's a significant difference. If they both had the same gearing gas mileage would be pretty much identical. We're not talking stock either. The original poster was thinking of swapping to a manual transmission which is obviously not stock. Why go though all that trouble when you can just throw in a better stall and a good shift kit which will shift faster than any manual transmission can humanly possible? He asked for the truth and I gave it to him. Stock for stock, I won't argue that most sticks are faster, but a lot of other factors play into that, like the fact that most manual cars came with better rear gears and the autos had weak stalls and gearing. As for why pro stock uses a lenko, which is unlike any manual transmission you will find on a street driver, it's mostly because of the rules of the class and it might have something to go with the fact that they have over 2,000 hp. The fact still remains that a properly built auto will outperform a manual in the 1320 in most cases.

 

Me being the type that enjoys Running a Fast car through its gears one advantage an Auto has over a Manuel car is that you will have less drivetrain problems on hard Launches. Its the same reason that HardCore off-roaders use them, torque breaks stuff...an auto tends to soften the blow just enough to help prevent breakage. Lets face it...your not going anywhere if your driveshaft/axle/u-joint breaks.

 

Wrong. Manuals get better mpg because they are MORE EFFICIENT. lockup only works at crusing speed. What about all the time a car spends accelerating? the automatic is slipping, which is wasting power and fuel. Try using the T5 instead of the unusual .5 ratio T56. A T5 has about a .7 ratio 5th gear, but will return better fuel econ than a 700R4. You're very biased to start with, so you'll argue any point that goes against an auto.

Yeah the Lenco is different than a street manual but it's closer to a manual than an auto....and the driver controls the shift points.

The only advantage an auto has is consistency....end of discussion.

 

All things being equal a manual will always be faster. That being said an auto will always be more consistent.

One major reason that you don't see more stick cars racing is that in a lot of classes stick cars are forced to carry extra weight. Obviously this is done in an attempt to level the playing field, and discourages a lot of people from running a stick, though those that do consistently run faster than the class leaders who run autos, but often are edged out by the consistency of the auto.

Everything that is doen to a racing automatic is an attempt to make it act like a stick. A higher stall converter just simulates a clutch dump at a given RPM. A transbrake is used to allow bringing the motor up in the RPM range at the line without having to footbrake, or use a line lock. No serious racer lets the trans shift itself, they all shift manually. Essentially what you wind up with is a car that launches and runs down the track like a stick car, but does so more consistently, because there is no clutch to modulate.

Stick cars aren't as consistent because the clutch technique is the major determining factor in how the car runs. Track conditions play a huge role in how you have to leave the line, and often how you have to shift. The driver needs a much greater degree of skill to successfully campaign a stick car. However, when the driver is familiar with the car and has the experience to judge track conditions the stick car will always beat the auto if all other things are equal.

Sticks definately given better fuel economy. No slipping clutch plates and no slipping converter means more efficiency. Plus they are lighter both internally and externally, so there is less parasitic power loss and less static weight. Even if both transmissions had the same gear ratios the stick would always win the MPG war.

Ultimately what you run in your own car is up to your personal preference. I drove autos for years, even though I learned how to drive a stick when I was 14. It wasn't until I got behind the wheel of my uncle's '66 SS396 Chevelle drop top and learned how to drive a performance car with a stick that I started to change my opinion. Since that fateful first drive I've owned a stick shift whenever possible, and converted a few cars too. There's nothing an auto can do that simulates a 7,000 RPM powershift that is perfectly executed. The car runs faster and you get that grin on your face knowing that you did it just right. When you pick up that slip and the times dropped a few tenths it's all the better.

BTW, Ronnie Sox = Mr. 4 Speed. I did my homework!

 

25thrss, If the torque converter is the best thing, then why doesn't F1 cars have them, I believe their rules would allow something like that. Why do Prostock and funny/top fuel cars use a clutch? (maybe it's a rules thing, but I doubt it)

I do agree for your average street car in a drag racing situation an auto is better off, due mostly to the softer hit on the tires allowing a auto car with a decent stall to beat most unskilled and some decently skill manual drivers spinning or bogging. Just don't make a blanket statement saying auto/torque converter is best for drag racing.

 

manual transmissions are like a hot looking babe with a real b!tchy personallity- Fun to ride when you need some excitement, but a pain in the A when you need a break.

I like both, for different applications and different reasons.

If I had to have just one, I'd take the automatic. The extra fun of the standard isn't worth the hassle of the extra work it takes to drive the car. for me that is.

My first camaro had a muncie with a v-gate shift. Man that was fun, but I had enough of that.

 

damn there is a TON of <b><i>mis</b></i>-information here. Someone correcting everyone. I quit reading half way down. lol.

:nono: !!?!?

 

F1 cars wouldn't benefit from one. I said autos were better for drag racing, but f1 cars obviously aren't drag cars. Although they combine the best of both worlds. They have automatic shifting with the direct drive of a manual. I'm mostly talking street applications here and pro stock has over 2,000 hp and top fuel has around 8,000 now. One reason would prolly be rules, but another would prolly be strength. Top fuel cars don't even change gears, they just have 1 gear (forward) and pro stock uses lenco trannys which basically eliminates the use of a clutch pedal at all. Also the crew chief sets up, or tunes, the clutch to act much like a stall converter would in a street car. They each have their advantages and disadvantages, but as much as some of you don't want to admit it, for most drag racing applications automatic transmissions are better. Take super stock for example, which is about the best example I can give that applies to us. Anyone who wants to be competetive runs an auto. Just take a trip to your local track and find out.

 

agreed!

 

Actually, historically all of the fastest cars in Super Stock have run manuals. They may not be the points leaders due to consistency, but if you do some looking around you'll see that most of the MPH and ET record holders are stick cars.

The only thing you gain with an auto is consistency, which is why a lot of people feel that they are better for drag racing, especially bracket racing.

I agree that no converter made could handle a Pro Stock car. That's why they run a clutch system. If there was such a converter they would probably run them instead of a clutch. The car would be more consistent, and safer.

 

which goes faster cheaper? Parts breakage counts!

 

Automatics tend to break fewer parts because of the softer hit, but if the car is built to handle the power it produces and is maintained properly parts breakage should never be a concern on any car.

The engine also has a big part to play in parts longevity. NA motors are hard on parts, and supercharged & N20 motors are the hardest. Turbo motors tend to be the easiest on parts because of the way they apply power to the drivetrain.

 

Not if the stick car can hook like the auto car...

 

Yes, even if you could get it to "hook" like the auto car, the auto would still pull easily out of the hole. It will get right into it's powerband quicker. BWT, way to bring an old dead thread back.

 

When CVT automatics can handle more power then this argument will be dead once in for all......

Maybe not, it will be CVT vs superconducting motor generator.

Red cars are faster than blue cars, just ask any cop.

 

Hmmm, sounds like crap to me.

 

hot rod december 2003, t88 turbo 306 mustang with tremec tko 5 spd 3:55 rear gears and over a 1000 hp and a kilo of torque ran 8.99 in the 1/4 and pretty consitently as well. oh yeah, street legal.... like said a few times on here, manual is quicker but with less room for driver error vs a auto, wich for bracket racing is very consistent, but if you want to get to the end first, manual is the way.
thats mw 2 cents......

 

And you are comparing that to what?? Seems like a worthless post. NO matter what, the best driver cant shift as fast as a well built automatic. Regardless the auto is the best, and the quickest in the 1/4. Period.

 

Lenco.


Most consistent yes. Fastest? No. Quickest? Usually, for the reason of a consistent launch.

Those 5000hp blown Hemis on nitro don't run automatics and those are "the quickest"

Don't make great big blanket statements.

 

here we go again. Autos are better for drag racing. get over it.

 

Hmmmm, im not sure though. I think with the sintered iron clutch disc from spec (its either stop or go, this thing literally is a iron clutch), moser 12 bolt and some pretty big stickies, I definatley think the manual could hang on to a 4500rpm clutch drop and rape the auto out of the hole. But thats just theoretically speaking. I still say manual's are more fun, whats better then turning a corner and a dropping a gear?

Auto's are for the drag track.......and women!

 

Point. Counterpoint.

 

I agree pasky, as far as cruising the street the manual is more fun, but when the timeslips count the automatic is better.

jmd-hmmm. didn't say it would be faster, i said quicker, big difference.

Where did that come from? Do you have a 5000hp hemi in your thirdgen. I'm sure you have noticed this is a third gen website. If you want to debate apples and oranges, go to one of the tuner sites.



Don't come in to pick apart a post, someone will probably make you look like an *** for it.

 

You said quickest. You didn't say quickest third gen. Site or not, and I don't drive a third gen and no one cares but you. I've owned cars of the same chassis with 3 & 4 spd auto, 5 and 6 speed manual, so I derive my viewpoints from that. It's not apples and oranges.

I didn't say you did say anything about fastest. Some people care about races from a roll, and not just quarter mile. If everything but 1/4 mile is useless, than automatics are great. Not everyone views the 1/4 mile as the only measuring stick. If I wanted to have that narrow of a viewpoint, I'd go enjoy a Turbo Buick forum.

Did you call your trans. shoppe and get the PN for the TH350 spacer yet?

Don't call me an *** if you wouldn't call me an *** in person, which you wouldn't. Debate, and don't be an *** about it by calling someone names.

 

I would most definately call you that in person, and wouldnt hesitate. You show that fact in every thread you are in. I have not called my trans shop, because I am getting my new exhaust done there, and plan on talking to them then. Give it up man, you are argueing about stupid crap. You are nitpicking and looking for a reason to argue. For some reason you feel left out. Everyone now knows your opinion, and wrong as it may be it is accepted. Have a nice day.

 

6-speed (Grey Goose Vodka)

or

Automatic($9.99 Special)


Yeah they both do the same thing, but which one is more enjoyable.........

:lala:

Manual > Automatic

 

Not all of us pay 10k for our fun, the point is which one is better.

 

For everything but 1/4 mile, I prefer the 6 speed. My swap cost under 2k.

 

the way to look at it is like this if you own a manual your gonna say its the best if you own an auto your gonna say its the best ...lol......jmd your starting to argue points that have any real point you argue every thing ljnowell or anyone that says different from you says . there are alot of good autos out there and they almost always will run more consistant in the quarter than any stickshift that you or i are going to put in a car ...a stick can be more fun to drive on the street but it can be a real pain in the *** if your in stop and go traffic also in my opinoin your better with the auto 3 or 4 speed depending upon your engine set up .....

 

You're so right.

A lot of times people will get all ego-injured that others view their parts as "lesser than other brands available" and defend what isn't defensible. I've seen people argue their Hotchkis parts as being "just as good" as Global West parts, when they're simply not. For the money, yeah, For their personal happiness, yeah. Getting down to the nuts and bolts, no.

Truth to be told, I've owned auto and manual, and still do; my daily driver had a couple 200-4Rs in it, and now has had a couple 700-R4s in it. Another one of mine had a 200-4R, then a couple different T5s, now a T56, and I've converted others from auto to stick.


True. But I never argued that point. I just said that a stick trans. car would be faster, and what I mean by that is that it can tend to MPH better through the traps. Why do you have a problem with me posting that? If it weren't in reply to your buddy, you wouldn't take note of my post after all.

Maybe you could teach LJ how to be as eloquent as you. When you guys try & tag team me by just posting more, I really don't care. I'll discuss a point without referring to someone as an "***." But I'm here discussing things on-topic, and just because a post might be in relation to your good buddy doesn't mean you need to jump into the fray, although you certainly make good points; better than he tends to.

Have a lovely humid evening in Central Southern Illinois, and I'll tell Billy to say hi.

-Matthew in Arizona

 

billy???? wheres he from man ?

i think i made a good point on this thread about the transmissions i didnt realize that i was tag teaming you at all i just made a point that about all the threads i have been on you dont take kindly to critisism when your statements are questioned you get extremely defensive about things ..
as for the good buddy thing and me making posts because things are in relation to him, not true, look back at any and all my threads ive posted in we may get into the same arguements but id say 99% of them i have posted usefull information pertaining to that thread before the flame wars get started against me because i questioned someone elses idea or statements that were made then it just keeps going and going .......we dont set out to tag team as some call it on here thats not how i prefer to do things at all but sometimes the arguements get pointed at me as well and ill jump in and state my .02 worth but im here just like you and many many others trying to help and get help with questions about cars and engines or transmissions (as in this case) but im not all about argueing on here im about helping on here as most are ....

 

My good friend and his Dad have been drag racing for over 30 years and have never ever used a stick. They won their races with an auto. I bought an auto because I took their advice. Am I sorry? Not at all. I plan to race with my auto for fun. If I get beat by a stick then so be it. Does it mean auto's are better than stick? According to them they are better for drag racing. I wouldnt know. I trusted their advice and went with auto. I am neither a women nor am I lazy as some others have said. Those are immature remarks. The fact is just get what you want and be happy. Personally I have never driven a thirdgen with a stick but I have driven sticks before. It gets old after a while. Why put in a stick when you have auto already? When I bought my car I knew what I wanted before I went shopping. I didnt buy a stick cuz it was a better deal etc. I kept looking until I found a good running auto. For 2k I could buy another thirdgen. Why spend that kind of money to swap a tranny? To each his own ya know? I've noticed in my area that when I wave to another camaro or firebird guy I almost get no response or a dirty look. We spend way too much time bickering about who's car is better. Our musclecars are an American icon. Lets enjoy them and get along.

 

I've been racing for 30 years and never used an auto. I won my races with a stick shift ( and many of them) Auto's are for those that can't handle a stick. Believe me I watched many switch because they had to....to compete. NHRA changed a lot of rules in those days so they could keep their "heavy crowd favorites" (that couldn't handle a stick). You know, the "factory backed boys".
Anyhow that's my take on it....you know how opinions are......

 

Thats a load of crap. The whole autos are for people who cant drive a stick thing is crap. You cannot shift as fast as my auto trans can. You cant. That is why I have an auto. They are better for the 1/4 and they are quicker. Not faster, quicker.

 

If you're a real real man, you'll use a milk crate for a seat and use a piece of string for the throttle. I've driven over 110 mph using vise grips for a steering wheel. My ***** are brass.

While we're at it, I just want to remind everyone ford is faster than chevy.

 

That is what I input. You type the comment below which has absolutely no bearing at all

Yeah that sound like what we drive on a daily basis

Then you graced us with this:

Hmm, someone is being a little nitpicky arent they. Seems to me like this site is called thirdgen.org.


And then comes this one. You are very true. Seems to me like you have been having a hard time ever since the 700 or 350 thread. Maybe you were defending a less than defensible object, I don't know.

Yeah, because we all have 5000hp hemis stock. You are worsw than my ex wife for contradicting yourself.

 

oh man i spit my tea all over the computer screen and key board on that one you should warn a person before chugging out something like that ....lmao....i almost fried my keyboard .....lol
and the whole ford faster than a chevy thing it depends on what color the car is if im not mistaken ? ....

 

I'm A manly man. I used to have a 1978 dodge aspen that was converted to a hard tail. The dam axle housing broke. POS dodge.

Red fords are the fastest. The ones with the 5.0

 

i thought it was the ones that were blue

5.0 isnt that liters ? i thought liters were for soda ? LOL