Ricktpi

I have the TKO 600 & love it. With 450RWHP & 4.11 rear, it pulls hard in all gears & is a very strong trans. Shifting is somewhat notchy, but the trans has bearly 400 miles on it. My car is not a daily driver, so fuel mileage is not my 1# concern. If it was I would drive a Toyota or Honda. If I had to have a Third gen & get good MPG, it would be a TPI & T56 for highway mileage. Around town stop & go driving 6th gear is useless. You really have to look at what you want from your car & decide from there.

Floor guy

I don't like the direction this thread has taken. We can all appreciate a good debate from time to time, but name calling, foul language and bad attitudes are starting to get out of line. Everyone step back, chill out and carry on. Pm's are being sent as a back up to this thread. Good info here. Please don't make me lock it.

92rs85berlintta

iTrader: (1)

Heres a comparison based on info provided assuming both are goin in a 3rd gen.
Pros of t56:
better gas milage because of 6th .5 OD
lower cruising rpm = less noise
wow factor
strength 400-550lbs tq
interchangeablitlity
upgradability
cheap
cheap parts
smoother shifting

Cons of t56:
heavier by 45lbs
Its a swap so theres more involved in putting it in.
possibly weaker than tko in high hp/tq applications.

Pros of tko:
bullet proof case
light weight
smaller
easier to work on
direct fitment
strong 400-600lbs tq rating

cons:
worse gas milage
no 6th = louder cruising
choppy shifting
expensive to upgrade
cost more to buy

Feel free to add more

Camaero

iTrader: (2)

I don't want to see this thread locked so everyone please keep it respectable here. If you want to voice your opinions then do it without insulting somebody with a differing opinion. I mean come on now.

Now, based on everything I have read here, I am still split on the decision. I want my manual trans to shift nicely and not be a pain in the ***, so the bad remark about the TKOs shifting concerns me a little. Would somebody please elaborate on how bad it is?

Some of you seem to be going back and forth about which one is really cheaper... When talking about swapping for a Camaro that has an auto with a built 350, which one IS cheaper?

Thanks for any response!
-Jason

92rs85berlintta

iTrader: (1)

T56 swaps complete pedals and all can be had for around $1500 with lower milage. You could buy a t56 swap and have it rebuilt for $270 and still save money. If your mechanicaly inclined enough to do the swap its ..IMO the better way to go. I assume this would be another mild 400ish hp 350. If so you never going to break the t56 so thats out of the question. what are you plans for your car?

Camaero

iTrader: (2)

Just that, a mildish 400 hp daily driver that will see the track every now and then. (drag strip and road course)

Also, are you talking about a used T-56 or one of them from Rockland or something?

So it sounds like it would just be good to grab a used one for around 700 to 900 as stated earlier in this thread and then have it rebuilt if needed for another $270? I will be doing the swap myself when I drop my 350 in. As long as it will be reliable and everything then maybe the T-56 is what I want for my application.

-Jason

92rs85berlintta

iTrader: (1)

$700 is for just the tranny. If you have a t5 you just need the tranny but if you have a 700r you will need the complete setup pedals hydraulics ect off lt1 only not ls1. check out the classifieds at camaroz28.com they are on there somtimes for 1500 ish for the whole 9 yards.

Camaero

iTrader: (2)

That's what I needed to know. Thanks bud.

-Jason

383backinblack

i only have one problem with this,,,,,,there is no "wow" factor for a t56......i know about 50 people that have them in various vehicles......its probably the most common retrofitted transmission in the world

Camaero

iTrader: (2)

Actually, I have one more question, I understand I would have to use a T-5 bellhousing for the swap. Putting a T56 in my IROC, my engine should shift around 6-6500 RPMs. Should I be concerned about the bellhousing not having enough strength to hold the clutch in case the clutch exploded? I do plan on using a good quality centerforce clutch.

Thanks for your replies.
-Jason

383backinblack

its very rare for that to happen at the power levels you're talking about......its something the normally occurs in drag racing on a launch on sticky tires too........sfi belhousings are a PAIN IN THE A** in these cars too

92rs85berlintta

iTrader: (1)

you can get a shield to protect from that if your worried about it. however Im not sure on the price of them. you dont have to use the t5 bell you can use the lt1 t56 and bell housing. you really have 2 options when it comes to the swap.

1. complete lt1 t56 with bell,hydraulics and clutch
2. your existing t5 parts a ls1 t56 and adapter plate.

If your swapping from scratch I recomend the lt1 t56 and bell setup.

laiky

the stock type bellhousings will do nothing but add to the shrapnel if your pressure plate or flywheel goes. not likely on the street but i have a lakewood just in case. It is a bitch, i had to trim the flange on the bottom for ground clearance and there are around 20 bolts to remove foe clutch replacement. i believe there are lighter duty steel housings available from lakewood and others, might try McLeod they make a universal setup just for adapting tremecs and such. I feel like the sfi sheild is overkill but i would definately get a steel housing if i were doing it.
----------
btw my tko shifts great, a little notchy until break in but slicker than the t5 now. i use the mustang hurst shifter.

383backinblack

ya the problem with the sfi shields, is you aren't allowed to modify them or the sfi rating goes bye-bye.....which sucks, because they make the car virtually undriveable on the street if you don't cut the bottom off

Camaero

iTrader: (2)

With the T-56, is there a certain year that has close gear ratios? Certain model? After looking through CamaroZ28.Com - FULL THROTTLE INTERNET I saw somebody selling one that had just that. It was already sold but this is something I would like to get. Can someone give me any info on this? Also, were they any stronger in say 94 than out of a 93 car? Or were they all pretty much the same?

Thanks again fellas.
-Jason

laiky

Yep, i never realized the stock bell housing wouldn't fit over an 11" clutch/flywheel until it was too late so i scrambled and got the lakewood. I was in a time crunch so i couldn't really research. I had it overnighted for saturday (ouch!). It hit the asphalt 2 times so hard i thought i would have to go back to get the tranny, bent the flange really bad too. so i cut it off. The first time i was racing a turbo supra, we hit an overpass and sparks were flying off my lakewood and his fart can! looked great, scary as hell when your not expecting it.

Tricked-Out-Toy

iTrader: (1)

Ya, I believe 93-94 had taller first gears but dont quote me on that, also from what ive heard they arent as strong as one from 95+. I have a 96 stock and it has held up well it has about 80K on it. My buddy has a 93 rebuilt with steel and kevlar from rockland and it has been fine taking everything he can throw at it with his TPI 355 hotcamed with 150 shot. I dont have much experience with the LS1's w/ adapterplates but if you go with a 93-97 T56 its a direct bolt up to you SBC all you would need is the clutch and flywheel from the 93-97 along with the a cross member.

Sorry Floor Guy, Sometimes I forget were I am

383backinblack

ya i've done that before......only with exhaust......which sucks as well lol......old worn out suspension with minimal ground clearance = bad

Shagwell

kids, kids, kids....( I'm 23...)

- EFI or not, if you get to far below a cam's power band, you LOOSE gas mileage. My buddies 02 GT is laying down over 300hp and over 300 ftlbs @ the wheels(with a power band that looks like a table top) but he still can't use 5th on his TKO500 in town because if he gets below about 2200rpm, he looses mileage. The car was tuned by Dave at superchips(4.6 tuning guru). It's a daily driver. It still gets about 21-23 on the highway, in 5th. The car runs low, low 12's on 17's.
- Yes, I have taken into account the ratios of the 6-speed. The one from rockland comes with the close ratio(closest available). I'll be running either a 4.10 or a 4.56 rear-gear. The 6 speed gives me an in town OD(5th is like .080) and 6th for highway use. - My cam specs are in my sig, and I have 1.6 shaft rockers for my new motor combo, which puts it up to 604/624 lift and slightly bumps the duration.

jrg77

Can someone elaborate on the Lakewood bellhousing bit? I just bought one (still in the box). Is this with lowered cars? Stock height? Wheelies or what?

Shagwell

- most, if not all, aftermarket bellhousings have a large bolt lip all the way around the bell. It hangs down approx 1-1/2", and the aftermarket bells are larger diameter than stock to begin with(allows for all clutch/flywheel sizes). The lip is built for a bolt up "block saver", which is basically a flat piece of steal that keeps any debris from taking out your engine block in the event of a clutch explosion. The lip can come in contact with the ground, because it hangs very low. If you don't need the SFI certification, then just cut it off. If you need the cert, then do some research and make sure you'll have ground clearance.
- I HIGHLY reccomend a "blow-proof" bellhousing to anyone running even a moderately powered clutch car. I like walking. You can blow a clutch at launch, you can blow it changing gears, and factory-type diaphram clutches can explode if they over-extend at high rpm. I blew one up short shifting 2nd at about 5600 running around town once. My bell has the dents and dings to prove it.
- like I said, I like having the ability to walk....

- yes, there are about 3 differnt ratio T56's available. I'm going with the one thats like a 2.97 low gear(maybe 2.67? - CRS again). With a 4.56 rear gear it should give me about a "move the car, shift 2nd". If you're building for drag racing, 1st gear is ment to move the car. Once it has physically moved, you should be in 2nd.

Wickedrock

OK. I am totally new to this trans. combo. I have a 90 that has a TKO II 5 speed in it. What kind of power is this good to? I am thinking of changing to an auto for drag racing but kind of have fun with the stick. The car makes close to 600hp at the rear now on pump gas. Race fuel tune up is at 800+.

90% of the time it will have the pump gas tune on it. Car will also be on drag radials (M/T). This may be an issue with the stick also.....

Any help? what's a good price for a combo like this? TKo, Mcleod twin with alum. flywheel, Blow proof bell, ripper shifter...etc.

Thanks

laiky

Wickedrock:

before you decide to get a really grabby clutch checkout the post on G-Force T5's. You may want a softer clutch for tranny durability. My exprience ends at street clutches, but you may want somthing you can soften up the hit on for tranny longevity.

Shagwell

Bottom line, it's not the clutches fault. If you're trans won't handle it, your trans won't handle it. Whats the point of putting a clutch in that you're gonna drive through to make the trans handle the power?
- I'm not sure what the power rating is for that trans. Check with TKO. I switched from a badazz auto to a stick. They're just too fun to drive. I'm going for 1.4X 60fts with the new chassis and suspension. That's on 17" dr's and with the stick, so it's all in what you want....

laiky

Whats the point? Softening the hit and avoiding the tremendous shock to the tranny. Also it gives you another way to tune your launch. The faster you are the more it can help. You won't be giving up any accelleration just avoiding the initial shock.

Tony89GTA

iTrader: (7)

My

T-56

Pros:
Fits nice
Easy to rebuild

cons:
choppy shifting
expensive parts
Useless 6th gear without new Rear gears
crappy 1st gear ratio unless you have a 93
god damn expensive clutches! if you can find one that works
Super heavy (try installing it yourself 7+ times)
crappy crossmember design and are to low to the ground

Pros of tko:
better gears ratios


Also like to add that you might get a good used t-56 for cheap but if I had to do it over again I would get new if I could, would have saved me a ton of money and headake. And if you ever had to rebuild it don't kid yourself the hard parts for these trans are not cheap.

Tricked-Out-Toy

iTrader: (1)

I dont understand why everyone one says 6th gear is useless???? im running a 230/230 cam with 601/601 lift and always use 6th gear for any speed over 60-65 which is great for cruising. I have 3.42 gears and LOVE them wouldnt dream about going with anything lower. I can blow the tires off all the way through 3rd and chirp 4th. I personally think a 3.42 with a T56 is the ultimate street setup

Shagwell

- So why have that much power then? If you have to soften how hard the motor hits the tires, you're either wasting hp. Time to either de-tune or make your suspension/tires work better. I side-step at around 5k, turn 7200-7600 and ****** 2nd. I could run better tires, but I don't have any traction problems as it is. I don't think my 3200 roller assist pressure plate ans my street/strip disc soften the blow too much. - If you need to soften the hit to the tires, adjust you suspension to do so. Not trying to argue, just my opinion.
If you think a T56 has "choppy shifting" you obviously haven't driven a TKO car. Also, you can get basically the same 1-4 ratios in a T56 that you can a TKO. As for $, as I said, 750hp rated with a warranty for the same $ as a TKO, and built so you can straight shift.

laiky

one of the reasons automatics last longer than manuals and don't break as many parts is that the torque converter absorbs shock. when you stall a converter you also preload the drivetrain. It may not be necessary in EVERY case but in general a softer clutch can add longevity to a drivetrain. You can also tune with other means such as tires or suspension but it does not help gears crashing into each other.

92rs85berlintta

iTrader: (1)

LOL seriously theres no way the tko shifts smother everyone knows that. You want to see choppy drive the stock t5's LOL Thats choppy.

What does that have to do with t5 vrs t56? Not trying to be jerk i just think it will start an auto vrs manual debate and i dont want this thead to get locked.. theres a ton of usefull knowlegde here.

I really dont think GM designed the car with swaps in mind but either way if your doing a tranny swap to get strength I would tend to think the rear would have come first as far as gears. Also 6th is fully functional unless you have like some insane 2.77 gears with a monster cam with no low end. The 6th gear being useless is an exageration by far.

Tony89GTA

iTrader: (7)

Got a link? Cause you can get a TKO for a not bad price.

And when did I say TKO shifts smoother? You guys think a t-56 tranny is god or something, I seen enough posts of people breaking their t-56's. Also yeah even with 3.27 6th gear is useless

Shagwell

I don't want this to go auto/manual debate either. - That said, I will say one more thing. Yes, the TC softens the blow, but not by much if you have a trans brake. I personally enjoy a clutch car for street/strip duty. Then it's just a matter of putting in a strong enough trans to handle what you have/do. Once I get around to setting up my 10.5 outlaw car, I'm gonna run a Jerico and a Bruno's converter drive.

- The T56 can be slick shifted pretty easily, and after about 10 tries with the TKO, it just ain't having it. My T5's all went easily. - Yes plenty of people have broke their T56's, but A LOT of that has to do with how they drive and whats in the trans. I never broke a basically stock WC T5 in low or in sec. I never broke one during a shift, even though I don't clutch or lift. I broke them under power in 3rd, due to the mainshaft deflecting away from the cluster. This all in a car that gets 5k clutch drop launches and runs in the 11's. IMO if a T5 could take that even a stock T56 will probably be fine. A smooth clutchless shift is usually easier on a trans than clutching. Everytime you release that pedal you shock the trans. - as for price, rockland standard gear gets about $2300 for a 750 rated T56 delivered, and a TKO is around $2100 shipped. - I do agree that unless you're geared for it 6th isn't gonna help you any.

laiky

i only metioned automatics as an example!! I don't have one, nor do i want one!

Tricked-Out-Toy

iTrader: (1)

Ok I need you to clear up one thing, what do you mean by "unless your geared for it 6th isnt gonna help you any" A stock 4th gen has 3.42s with a 6speed and they are fine. what is the actual limit to how tall of a gear you can run and why?

Shagwell

basically anything steeper than a 3.42 will get you in trouble. You could run slightly more with like a 383 TPI with a very low duration cam, but it still might lug too much. The problem is, even with a perfectly tuned efi, if you get to far below the powerband of your cam the engine lugs and burns more fuel than if it were at a higher rpm. Besides, since you have the 6 gears with good ratios, you might as well run a lower rear gear and enjoy the performance of it, since it won't cost you mpg.

tt 383

i must say that this was a very good read. i really dont think you will see 8 mpg difference going from .6X fifth, to .5x sixth., not to mention how often you can realize that gear. i would also say that for close to $2100 (not shipped) you can have the d&d performance tko900/750. i know some1 with the t56 and stock rear and he also says its useless unless on the highway @75mph. i could care less either way what anyone does, both are good. both can be built to handle more power. i believe d&d makes the shift smoother somehow. remember though, "buyer beware" when buying used. also as was mentioned before tko has nothing to do with t5, they are completely different. last, do the ratio math. @.5 sixth ratio, a 4.56 gear final drive is 2.28. if you have 3.42 your final drive is 1.71. to me that is useless..... remember if you have 3.42 rear and t56 5th gear .8X your final drive is 2.73 already a highway cruiser. 3.42 with tko 5th is 2.2x, livable. my mach 1 cruises around 1300 rpm @60 with 3.55 rear.

tt 383

carbs have come a long way. C&S Racing Carburetors - C&S Specialties has a carb that will come very close to what a fuel injector will do. pricey, but not really more than a "name" carb shop.

86irocterror

look at the gear ratios. the t56 to the 5 speeds have or can be ordered with the same or very close to the same ratio for your over drive gear, be the 6th, or the 5th gear. the one big differece is more gears to shift threw if your racing.....and the 6 speeds are more of a touring trans....meaning the shift pattern is alot bigger and slopier then a 5 speed from tremec. the 5 speed is a very tight pattern. it is a lil easier to put the 5 speed in then the 6speed. but its all about prefference. i have a tremec 600 5 speed and my 5th gear is i think a.62 and most 6 speeds are between .64.and .58 big deal maybe 200rpms......lol. my car is more for racing so i went for the tighter shift pattern. plus the tremec 600 is rated at 650hp.......but they handle 1200hp before the input shaft will brake. so i like the strength with the tremec 5 speed

UnstableAviator

1994+ T56 ratios:

1st 2.66
2nd 1.78
3rd 1.30
4th 1.00
5th .74
6th .50
Reverse 2.90


In 6th gear, with 28" tall ET Streets and a 4.11 rear gear, I can turn about 1700 rpm and run with 65mph traffic. For me, 6th is pretty much useless except for those long flat stretches of road.

However, 1-4 totally rocks. I love my T56.

383backinblack

where the hell do you do 65??

around here if you're not doing 80 you get rear ended

Roymaxhp

I've broken 3rd gear in both a TKO-500 & a TKO-600. My '86 Firebird small block makes 480HP & 460 ft-lb peak torque. Tremec claims I must be wheel hopping in 3rd gear. I ran BW-T10's for 14 years & never failed a 3rd gear. I compared 3rd gear in the TKO600 with a third gear from a BW-T10 (Richmond). Both trannys are 83mm center line to center line. Gear teeth helix angles are the same. The TKO gear is thicker (1" vs 0.82") and has more teeth (26 vs 21). Unfortunately the TKO gear is 4615 steel. The T10 is 8620. 4615 has lower yield strength, lower tensile strength, and lower impact strength. Impact strength is critical if you like to bang shifts. My TKO gears shattered like they were made of glass. The T10 was rated at 350 ft-lb. Under the same test conditions there is no way a TKO-500 or 600 will met it advertised ratings. In fact the Tremec shop manual states that the TR3350 is good for 350 ft-lb while the TKO-500 is rated at 375 ft-lb. This is a lot closer to the truth.

383backinblack

funny, mine made over 500hp at the flywheel and launched wheels up ever pass last year, and i must have had 500 passes on that transmission since i bought it

so its definitely something odd with you.....because i beat the BAG out of that transmission every single day of its life and it never made a peep, including the 500passes at Ne dragway on sticky tires and the 1000's of miles of street driving

Roymaxhp

I run a Ford 9" with 3.50 gears & Detroit Locker & 325/50R15 BFG drag radials. My driveshaft is 3" dia steel. I got tired of swapping clutches so now I run a modified Zoom 11" which I haven't touched in 2 years and hundreds of runs on the street and strip. My car weighs 3670 with driver. My rear suspenion is still a torque arm but modified. I'd like to know more about your combo.

383backinblack

most of the passes are on a spec stage 3, the first 2 seaons were on a centerforce df2......the car weighs over 3600lbs with me in it, my rear suspension is hotchkis lca's and panhard rod with south side machine lift bars (no torque arm) and eibach drag launch springs with koni adjustable shocks.

the motor was an afr headed 383 that made about 420hp at the rear wheel, through a moser 12 bolt with 33 spline axles and 4.11's.

now its the same combo, only with an intercooled/alky injected f1-R on it obviously with different pistons and cam.

92rs85berlintta

iTrader: (1)

L.I.N.Y.92CAMARO Good to see you went with the right choice and got the 6 speed. you wont regret it!

383backinblack

until you twist the input shaft

92rs85berlintta

iTrader: (1)

Yea, like thats ever gonna happen with a mild 350... I doubt he could if he tried.

L.I.N.Y.92CAMARO

Yea i highly doubt ill twist the input shaft with around 400 HP... Maybe 600HP will twist it, even though ive never seen that before.

Im not too worried.

Thanks,

383backinblack

seen it twist with 650hp 3 times

92rs85berlintta

iTrader: (1)

Thats the point it doest apply to him, with 650hp anything can happen. It also must not have had a upgraded shaft because ifit had one meant for that amount of hp it wouldnt have happened. vipers and the vettes have ran allot more than 650 through these with great success. Not sure if anyone on here watched the last episode of hp tv but they built a supercharged ls1 and used a t56 with upgrades and 12 a bolt rear. That dang car was making 541hp at the wheels with a quik dyno tune. They never ran it at the track because it didnt have a cage. i imagine they could have hit 700hp on N S.