A long time ago I posted threads looking for help with my stock 700R4 not shifting. Well I came to the conclusion that the clutch bands for the 1-2 shift are shot. So, I took this oppertunity to research my replacement options. I decided I wanted to go maunal as its just more fun. Now I have a 305 with supposed mild internal work done and a Edelbrock performer intake. I cant afford the T56 swap at this point in time, so how much modification will a T5 withstand behind a 305 motor.

 

You won't make enough power out of the 305 to kill it, but your driving style can play a big part in a T5's durability.

I have had excellent luck with mine.

 

So its a good idea to swap the transmission then? I should go with it? And maybe next winter I can dear down the tranny and rebuild it? suggestions?

 

I have a built 355 with alot of mods, 3.42 posi and I beat the **** out of the transmission. The t-5 is underrated. It will hold, just not forever. everyday normal driving and it will last as long as you want it to, but if you take it to the strip and hook good than you risk killing it.

 

OK so, in my case I want to use it now just to get accquainted with the 5 speed. I just need it to last till NEXT winter is all when i have the cash moneys to tear it down and rebuild. I know im being paranoid but every car I have ever owned has had transmission issues, and theyve all been automatic... so Im hoping the T-5 will be solid.

 

if you're planning on going back to auto, then I wouldn't go through the work of swapping to a manual. If you want manual, then put it in till you can afford a T56. Unless you abuse it, it'll do just fine.
- I ran 11.72 in my 4001lb vert with a 1.66 60ft on a world class T5. I did eventually break it (3 of them actually) but they all went several thousand miles of abuse....
The non-wc units aren't worth much if anything though...

- just for giggles, I know of several 305's that can easily kill a T5. Hell, there are a couple of 12 sec stock bottom-end 305's on this board.

 

The difference in rated potential in the two transmissions is 30 ftlbs if I am not mistaken. I recently blew up a WC and now using a NWC that happens to be more solid than the WC has ever been.

Automatics are very interesting devices and are usually more consistance in ET's and usually you get better gas mileage since with a manual tranny you tend to accelerate more agressively.

My advice, stick with the auto. If I could, I would put an auto in my car

 

differences in ratings means squat. If you look through the years at Gm and Ford T5's, they rated them all over the place, even though the internals were the same - wc units and non wc units are the only real difference. - Now, going from a worn WC to a decent NWC may seem better, but there's no way torrington bearings can hold near as much as Timken cone type bearings. Torrington bears(NWC models) have no pability to hold the cluster from deflecting away from the main shaft, which is the main problem with a T5.

 

You are right about the bearings, but you are splitting hairs. T-5 is a T-5 no matter what it's potential is limited and you are playing russian roulette no matter what class you have. To me the differences in the two do not make enough difference to go out of my way to get one or the other.

 

ok so then Im not gonna chance it. Ill have the T5 internals redone (by myself or a shop, i have to research it) before I put it in the car, cause it really doesnt make sense to put it in there then have it blow out 2 months later. So I'll just do it the right way so I dont have to worry about these kinds of problems. Now, i am new to manual transmissions so are there rebuild kits for them, and what do shops usually charge for this job. thanks alot guys. great info

 

HI there,

I road race a 1988 Ex-players 1LE camaro, 350 +60 over approx 400 HP. The WC T-5 is a good trans but it's weakness is power shifting and especially standing starts, i.e. drag racing dropped clutch starts. The stock shifter is bad too., it can bend the shift forks. I shift fast but not hard don;t need to, smoothness is the key.

There are upgrade kits availbe for the T-5 and rebuild kits also. The best things you can do is to not abuse it, run synthetic fluid (mobil 1 ATF or Redline) and get an aftermarket shifter with stops, so you can't over shift. Our local race prep shop swears by them. Mine has the close 5th gear, and a tight rebuild. Do this and they are very good.

Good luck and you will enjoy it, the T-5 is an underated trans.
We are getting ready to put one in a Jaguar behind a SBC.

Steve

 

Awesome, thanks alot for the info. I'm feeling alot more confident about the swap now, haha.
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I forgot to mention... I plan on eliminating all the smog equipt on the car as well as switching over the carb/dist. to non computer controlled.... is this gonna make a difference in the swap?

 

I've done extensive research on the T5 in the past few months, and blatant abuse is it's enemy, regardless of how much power you have.

The World class is the ONLY way to go. Disagree? No need to argue. Not my problem.

I have a friend running a 396 with a stock WC T5. After several thousand miles he's bent his forks, but the gears/shafts are fine. He doesn't race though, but so far so good.

I plan on doing the swap soon myself. It'll be stock for now, but I've priced out the Astro Performance kit for when I "build" the motor.

 

personally, I don't fully believe in the "upgrade" kits for the T5. The main problem with a T5 is case flex. G-force makes and "upgraded" case, but you still only have so much bearing and so much material between the main shaft and the cluster, so you only have so much strength. Mine all broke 3rd gear, which is the most comon thing to break in a T5, because it's in the center of the shaft, thus the most prone to flex. Stock helical cut gears promote flex, so the straight cut sets would be a deffinite improvement, although you would still have a trans intended for light/mild duty. If I wasn't going for 1.4X 60fts and planning on a 4.56 gear, I might think about running an g-force or astro perf straight cut gear set-up, once the car is down to around 3000lbs, but with a 4.56 gear, hard launches and street use, T56 it is.
I launched mine at 5k-5200, side step, no lift/no clutch shifts running 1.6X 60fts and 11.7's. All three took it for a lot longer than expected.....
- do a search under my name about T5's, I've posted all my results before...

 

Well, even with the the "upgraded" T5, it's still no indestructible beast of a tranny, but I think it's more than adequate for "most" of us here on TGO. Of course, that's all relative I guess.

...yes the cases flex, regardless what gears are inside. The flex causes the gears to mesh improperly and puts to much stress on the outer portions of the teeth. The upgraded gear sets "supposedly" are MUCH stronger, and can handle (to an extent) the added stress of the flexing case. ...and of course like you said, the straight cut gears reduce flexing by not wanting to push away from each other like the helical gears.

Like I said though, it's still not bulletproof, but it IS still cheaper than a T56 swap, and it's stronger too. ...but if you're beatin' the ever livin' crap outta the thing, then no, even the upgraded T5 isn't gonna last.

 

If you think a T-5 (upgraded or not) is stronger than a T-56 you are smoking the herb a little too much.

 

do you think a fresh world class will handle possible 1.7x 60 foots every now and then?? i dont race too much... but when i do, i get 4-5 passes a night..and my 60's have been 1.7x-1.83's on the stalled auto.

i want to do a T5 swap so bad just cuz i have access to a donor car for cheap! lol believe it might be a world class trans, but it may need rebuilt. either way, swap kits are 400-500 bucks...not a bad upgrade

 

I think the Astro kit is rated over 600 ft.lbs. I think the T56 is only rated up to 600.

So call it a wash so not to split hairs over numbers. Would you rather have a newly rebuilt T5 for under $1500 or a used T56 for around 3k?

some how I know you'll say the T56.

 

3k for a used tranny, c'mon...
eBay - t56 transmission, Parts Accessories, eBay Motors items on eBay.com
There are atleast 5 on ebay right this second, from $1200-$1700

Hell, these days you could buy an LT1 w/ a T56 in it for that much.

 

$1200 to $1700 for the trans, new clutch, all the pedals and hydraulics, aftermarket crossmember......I didn't do the math, but it's more expensive. I can swap in a T5 for well under 500. I can do the GForce kit and still be under $1500.

OK, nevermind. Let's go back to the point of this post: Discussing what the T5 can handle. It's important to remember that EVERY single one of us has a different meaning for words like power, abuse, romp, slam, pound, fast, performance, etc. etc. There are over 14000 members on TGO, and we all have different uses for our car. That being said, let's look at the original post:

"can't afford a T56, can the T5 handle a mild 305"

I think that in most cases, yes, it can handle it. If 87Red305 was dumping the clutch at 3800 with some slicks out back and spaying a 175 shot, I think he woulda mentioned that. The T5 is known to suffer case flex, and this breaks gears if regularly run hard. It has also survived in more than a few cars with pretty stout motors. There is no way to give an absolute hard answer.

With that being said, on behalf of all of us here at TGO, I'd like to anwer 87Red305's post:

Yes, it's most certainly, absolutely and undoubtedly a good chance that you'll probably have no problems.

Maybe.

 

I completely agree, chances are you are good to go on the T-5

 

HAHA, well said. Well Im not running NOS for sure ( i dont believe in it) , I might put slightly wider tires on the car down the line. Im not saying that I wont be racing it, because monday nights at rt.6 "racing" is the buzz word. Right now Im running BF Goodrich Radial T/A's and I like them. So as long as I dont abuse the trannsmission it will most likely be around longer. simple concept. thanks guys

 

Well there ya go right there. As long as you remain traction-challenged, your transmission will do just fine.

Put something on there that actually hooks up, and things could change though.

But it looks to me like you've got pretty good protection against traction going on, a good safety system for a T-5. Those tires will make sure the trans can't ever get heavily loaded.

 

My dad ran a 10.5 in his 2nd Gen on BF Goodrich Radial T/A's before switching to Eagle ST's. Car is completley stock trim too. lol

 

so what about the borg warner t-5's? junk or same at wc

 

OK great.

Any idea what he would have run if he'd got better traction? That's a trypical problem with these "my car runs great" type answers; yeah sure, maybe it does. That doesn't mean it wouldn't run better with something else. In other words, "my car runs great" doesn't "prove" anything, without a VALID (single-variable, before/after) comparison.




That's what T-5s all are. The T-5 was a Borg-Warner product. "WC" simply adopts a popular management seminar buzzword of the day to refer to the 2nd design, with the tapered roller countergear bearings and all that, instead of the straight rollers in the 1st design. The 2 designs aren't all that different in terms of power handling. They have the same size gears, the same diameter shafts, the same thickness case, the same clutch gear bearing and the same main bearing. The differences were mostly designed for improved gas mileage and driver "feel", and have little to do with strength. There's no more than 10% difference in their "power handling" capability, which has little or nothing to do with "manufacturer's ratings", it's a whole other matter.

 

haha thanx alot. learned somethign new today haha

 

Ok, fair enough! I was just trying to say that the tires cant be that bad if you can run a 10 second 1/4 mile. Hm, I wonder wht he'd run with a set of fat slicks...hmmm....theres always next spring!

 

Not to go toooo far off topic, but I happen to like my BFG TA's. Like I mentioned earlier in the thread, everyone has different needs and expectations.

To discuss the unmeasurable breakin' point of a T5, and then throw in a variable like traction with a certain brand tire is like discussing how much butter is needed to make pees taste good!!!!!!!! It's ludicris I tell ya!

 

how much traction do you think it takes for the tranny to start flexing and breaking gears? 1.7 60 foots is where i'm at now, and would be concerned if i had a T5.

 

Well ya can't have your cake and eat it too.

If you regularly race, and you PLAN to race, and you're doing the Auto/manual swap, I don't know if the T5 would be my first choice. Of course they're cheap enough you can afford to break 'em assuming you don't mind spending an afternoon to replace it! ...but if racing is what you're into, you might wanna keep that automatic regardless of what manual tranny can handle whatever kind of power.

 

I smoked the first 4 or 5 of them in my car with the stock 305. That was after I took off the lousy Radial TAs that I screwed up and bought (I still to this day can't believe I actually paid money for that crap), and put something on that hooked up a little bit. Then another dozen or so with a 400. Then I finally got a glimpse, and quit speed-shifting them, and the last one lasted about 40-50,000 miles, until I put a T-56 in it.

It's all in how you drive them.

Some people scatter them with 2.2 60's. Some people get years of life out of them with hard launches. It's just luck of the draw, I guess.

 

What's your street tire preference sofakingdom?
Radial TA's are so common, everybody and their dog has them. I'd like to hear what the educated minority runs?

 

Our Super T-5 Gear Kit is rated to support up to 500 Ft. Lbs. of Torque @ 650HP in a 3,400 Lbs. Vehicle. This figure is given that the customer upgrade the Output Shaft, and install a H/D Cluster Support Plate on the Rear Part of the Main Case. I feel that it is a good idea to even upgrade to a 28 Spline Output Shaft if someone is border line of the 500 Ft. Lbs. of Torque we rate them at. The only problem with doing this is that your Speedometer will not hook up. We are currently in the process of manufacturing a Output Shaft that has Multiple Locations of being able to hook up Speedometers.

I personally don't feel that the Case is as big of a concern as others. We have put 700HP through the Factory Case without having it fail! I have more Tremec TKO Repairs with the Ears busted off due to the transmission "twisting" under load. There are Aftermarket Companies making Girdles for the Tremec Case due to these problems. In our history of building T-5's we have only seen 1 T-5 Case completly "blown apart". This was due to it being a G-Force Straight Cut/Dog-Ring Gear Kit that was being shifted at 8,600 RPM with a 29" Tall Slick with 5.67 Rear End Gears, not to mention 600HP @ Rear Wheels! The Clutch in front of it was a RAM 3-Finger Adjustable Pressure Plate with a Solid Hub Sintered Iron Disc.....needless to say the T-5 was on borrowed time.

The Super T-5 was manufatured as an Optional Step for the F-Body Customer to consider if they didn't want all of the modification associated with converting to a Tremec 5 Speed. Granted, there is a point where the T-5 "fails" (500+Ft. Lbs. of Torque), this is where the customer needs to take the next step. But, what we are trying to market is a Drop-In Replacement Gear Kit that requires virtually no conversion that will support up to 500 Ft. Lbs. of Torque.

Thanks,
Tony
tony@astroperformance.com
(866) 253-0019 Natl.

 

^^^^^ I'd say that about sums it up.

Just for sh*ts and giggles, my first one came out without unbolting. The case was 3 piece. My torque arm is a remote mount, so after pulling the x-member, it fell out. - Pissed me off(vss wire got f'ed up).....
1.66 60fts on stock WC t5's. All three of them. Actually, usually 60ft isn't the problem, it's 3rd gear that hates life.
I flat out abused mine. No clutch/no lift shifts, 5-5200 side-steps at the line. They took it for about 8-10k ish(it's been a while, I posted proper mileage figures in another post) - atleast 6 passes a month - I'm not comlplaining.