I've always used plastic alignment tools in the past and they always worked...........until they didn't. I don't think that I'll ever chance using a plastic alignment tool again.

 

I guess the good news for me is I've never had a trashed transmission. Hopefully I won't have one, ever!

This experience has made me a firm believer in either a steel alignment tool or an old input shaft from a bad transmission.

 

Time for an update. Things did not go well yesterday.

When I bolted down the clutch assembly with the steel alignment tool earlier in the week, the tool got stuck. I had to loosen up all 6 clutch bolts and try again. The Tilton instructions say to tighten each of the 6 bolts in a star pattern, 1/4 of a turn at a time. Laying under the car and doing this by myself was a total PITA and having to do it twice was PITA squared!! After the second time, I was able to get the alignment tool out but it was tight. Very tight.

Yesterday, my wife and I tried to stab the transmission. The first part went pretty well and with a bit of wiggling of the transmission, we were able to get it to within 5/16". That's much better than the previous 3/4" from a while back. However, as much as we tried, it just wouldn't go in any further. I thought about installing the bolts and slowly pulling it together but then got scared of messing up the pilot bearing and decided against that idea.

We pulled it back apart and I took a look inside and the pilot bearing was just fine. I stuck the steel alignment tool back in. It was a very snug fit and I had to fight like crazy to pull it back out. I'm thinking that I'm having trouble getting both discs lined up just right. One of them must be slightly off creating a lot of friction and not allowing the alignment tool or the transmission input shaft to insert freely.

At the moment, I'm lamenting the fact that I tore down a perfectly good running 350TPI car and turned it into a non-running piece of crap that I can't get the transmission installed into. The PO'd factor is pretty high right now and I need to stay away from the car as I might end up burning it to the ground.

 

You won't mess up the pilot that way. The thing that is most likely to happen is, breaking one of the "ears" off of the transmission.

You might be to the point where you can use the push the clutch and wiggle technique. Even if it only goes in 1/16" or something for each push and wiggle. As in, have your assistant push the clutch, and wiggle it to one side while tightening the bolts on that side finger-tight; then push again and wiggle the other way, and tighten those 2 the same way; until it's all the way home.

Also helps when using the alignment tool, to wiggle it the same kinda way, just as the clutch bolts get just barely tight enough to just barely start to grab the disc(s) to get them as loose on the tool as they can be, rather than just jamming it all together and cranking em down. I.e. make sure that the discs are clamped as perfectly centered as possible on the bushing, and the tool comes back out as easily as it went in.

 

If you're using a pilot bushing you really can't damage it that way. If you're using a bearing, you can catch one of the rollers/cage and damage it. Using the clutch while it's not in all the way can get you into the over travel situation the you had last time. You could try it but there's a reason it's not going in and you dodged a bullet w no hydro fluid on the clutch disks once!

I agree w making sure there is free movement of the install tool. Mine slid in and out easily. As you tighten down the pressure plate constantly wiggle the alignment tool.

Are you using a transmission jack w tilting/angle adjusters?

 

Is this a new or used transmission? If used, and someone ran it with a failed pilot bushing, then the input shaft might be bent. (This happened to me and I could not seat home the transmission. That's when I took time to spin the transmission and saw the wobble in the shaft.)

Given your symptoms of the tool being hard to remove, I would guess your visual estimate of clutch disc alignment isn't close enough to real center, and this is causing the disc to be a "third bearing" that's making it difficult to install the transmission. The transmission will drop in like butter when everything is aligned.

It was very difficult to install my T56 onto my LS7 with a Ram twin disc clutch. But finally it dropped in like butter. Very annoying after huffing and puffing and wrestling for 30 minutes!

I tried finger tightening bolts as I went along, but I think it actually worked against me by holding the transmission in a cocked manner. I backed out the bolts a bit to give myself some freedom to wobble and that's when the transmission went in.

 

Assuming the parts are all good . . .

Insert, wobble up and down, hold just above halfway of vertical wobble, and tighten the PP bolts. A helper can help, but I never needed one.

A steel alignment tool doesn't fix an assembly bolted together while out of alignment. It's just slightly better than a plastic one. I don't even grab my spare TR6060 maindrive because it's not necessary.

 

I don't want to overextend this new slave cylinder so I'm not putting hydraulic fluid into it until the transmission is fully installed.

It's pretty hard to hold the clutch assembly up, center the alignment tool and slowly tighten the 6 clutch bolts by myself while laying under the car. I'm thinking that I need to unbolt everything. I'll hold the clutch assembly and alignment tool and have my wife tighten the bolts. I think the two of us can do a better job than I did by myself.

Yes. I've got a Harbor Freight transmission jack with the tilting fore and aft as well as tilting side to side. It's a decent jack but clearly wasn't designed for a T56 transmission. Probably works good with automatics. but the T56 just doesn't fit all that well. Nonetheless, it's way better than trying to benchpress the transmission into place!

 

Pull the damn motor already and put it all together on a bench then install it as one unit like a normal person. Half your frustration is you laying on your back under the car trying to wiggle a transmission into place. Save your sanity

 

The T56 Magnum F is brand new.

I've been thinking that the twin discs add complexity to the aligning process. I've never had trouble in the 10 clutches/transmissions that I've done in my lifetime but this is the first time I've messed with a twin disc.

My wife and I wrestled that transmission for a long time trying to get it to slide in the last 5/16". It just wouldn't go in and I started to worry that the pilot bearing was knocked out of position or damaged. Once we pulled the transmission back out, it was easy to see that the pilot bearing was still in place and not damaged.

 

I told my wife that we need to just pull the motor back out. It would be so much easier to align the clutch and stab the transmission with everything out in the open on the garage floor.

I've never installed an engine with the transmission bolted to it but probably half the people do it that way.

My grown adult son who is about 260 lbs is going to help me on Monday. Plenty of muscle to wrestle this thing. We'll give it one last shot and if the transmission doesn't go in, then the motor is coming out.

 

Yea exactly pull the motor and then put the transmission on. You'll be able to see everything you can't see under the car, you'll be standing and not laying down. Installing the motor and transmission as one is easy peasy just get it up enough to get it into the engine bay and then one guy goes under the car and you slowly lower and move it into place then use a jack on the transmission to raise it up to get the crossmember on.

My brother and I put my iron block 370 LS 4l80e in my car like that and those two combined was not the lightest combination. It was basically inch by inch.

 

Hopefully w slightly more aligned disks and a little more muscle it will go in. The dual disk totally makes it tighter. You may need to walk it in w a few bolts and rocking the trans a little. Idk if it makes a difference or not, I used a dial indicator and offset dowel pins to center my bell housing.

 

With the amount of frustration he's been going thru it's just better to pull the motor and put it together and install it as one unit. This entire thread had been nothing but "you'll get it" opinions

 

I hear ya but he's gotta get under the car again either way. These trans are not light, 2 people under the car will get it done I bet. If he's under 1/2 inch he's pretty much there. I wouldn't be so quick pull the engine. W the engine out you still have the same parts/situation just much better access/leverage.

I angled the block so the back end was lower and the crank centerline was at more of an angle. Then I angled the trans jack so the input shaft was at a similar angle. My magnum was really close to the trans tunnel w the engine at the stock angle. Once the trans/crossmember was bolted in there was only 1/2 inch between the tunnel and some of the points on the trans. So there is the possibility it's hanging up some where else also.

 

This is exactly what I've been doing. I get the engine's rear side angled down as much as possible so that I have some room with the rear (shifter) of the transmission to not hit the tunnel just aft of the shifter hole. I'm working with fractions of an inch here.

 

As painful as this sounds I have to agree. I am living this same situation now. When my engine and trans went into the car I lowered the body onto the driveline. Worked well. I recently had to pull the trans due to a clutch issue and it was a nightmare. The trans tunnel has just enough interference around the shifter that sliding the Magnum in and out is a nightmare. I removed the intake manifold and tilted the motor back and it was still a job. The real pain was getting it all back together only to realize that I side loaded the input shaft too much and cracked the slave cylinder. Fluid everywhere when trying to bleed the clutch. Everything has to come back out. I am not going the same path as before and instead will drop the entire k-member and drivetrain together. I can get have full access to properly slide the trans together without a fight.

 

Shifty, you are going through a nightmare! I'm sorry to hear that as I wouldn't want anyone to have to go through this misery!

I've got the same issue you do with minimal room around the transmission shifter stub and the hole cutout in the tunnel. I'm working with fractions of an inch as I'm sure you are as well.

My son and I are going to try one more time this afternoon. If successful, great and I'll move on. If not, the engine is coming back out and this whole project will be put on hold for about 3 weeks .

 

It ruined the availability to use the car all summer. I want to make sure everything is kosher so that is why I decided to bite the bullet and drop the whole drivetrain. Fractions of an inch cannot be understated. The angle between the trans and engine was a few degrees off which is why I am pretty sure the slave was damaged.

 

This has got me a little concerned. I've already ruined one $140 slave cylinder and I'd hate to ruin another.

When my wife and I were working on it early last week, we had the transmission stabbed all the way in but just a bit short by 5/16". That's when we started to muscle it so I'm thinking that we weren't able to get too much of an angle on the input shaft to crack the slave with everything almost together.

 

I also bought the tick machined clutch alignment tool. I am not going to fight with the plastic ones anymore. Anything to improve the slip-in will reduce anxiety. If you have slid the trans in with it being only a little short you should be ok. The angle issue is at its worse as you initially introduce the trans to the engine. They need to be perfectly aligned which is almost impossible on these cars due to the trans tunnel, no less doing it without a lift. The small china freight trans jack helped a lot to be honest. $120 well spent.

 

I used a JEGS trans jack. I just needed to get the car up really high the slide it all under. The adjusters on the jack made it really easy.

dumb question, someone mentioned installing the trans and the shifter stub being an issue. Putting in this trans in w a shifter stub mounted has got to be impossible. Having the entire shifter assembly off and covered in duck tape is necessary. Also, for anyone w stock fuel lines running across the trans tunnel, they are close to the trans. I damaged one on install. For me it didn't matter because I was running new lines at the same time but, just a heads up.

 

I mentioned the shifter stub in post #68. I might've mentioned it earlier in this epic length thread as well.

Yes. In hindsight, I should've just removed it and covered that area with duct tape. I've now done it enough that I kind of know how to maneuver the transmission incrementally to get the assembly to where the shifter stub sticks through the shifter hole in the transmission tunnel.

 

I bought a different shifter exactly for this reason. I bought one of the american powertrain shifters that has a removable portion to it. I can install the base plate, install trans, and then assemble the rest of the shifter through the top. The stock shifter I had to get creative so I could bolt it in once in the general area.

 

UPDATE

Before my son came over, I removed the steel alignment tool and got the transmission in place. In fact, I stabbed the transmission to within 5/16" like my wife and I had done last week. It went in very easily to 5/16".

When my son got here, we tried to muscle it the rest of the way in. It wouldn't go. As we looked closely at the gap trying to figure out what was wrong, we both agreed that the 5/16" gap was about the length of the two dowel pins. We could see that the dowel pins just didn't seem 100% lined up with the holes or something else that I can't explain. At this point, I decided to do what you're not supposed to do; I threaded some bolts in and proceeded to tighten them up. I moved around during the tightening sequence like a star pattern. It all pulled together but it did take some effort so I'm not totally comfortable with it.

Prior to the installation, the steel alignment tool did insert all the way into the clutch and pilot bearing. Even though the alignment tool was a tight fit, it did insert and I was able to remove it. This tells me that the clutch assembly is lined up reasonably well and that by using the bolts to pull in the last 5/16", I don't think that I pushed the pilot bearing into the crankshaft or anything like that.

With the transmission in place, I bled the slave cylinder by opening the Tick Performance Remote Clutch SPEEDbleeder Line by putting the end in a jar of brake fluid. I let gravity work for a few minutes and then after that, it didn't even take 10 clutch pedal pumps and the pedal was firm. I closed the SPEEDbleeder and my wife pushed the clutch pedal while I watched the slave cylinder work from underneath the car. It all appeared to be fine.

Anyway, I know I wasn't supposed to use the bolts to pull it together but I did it anyway. Probably shouldn't have but I did. If you guys really think that I should pull it all back apart, I will. If I pull it apart, the engine is coming out and I'll redo everything on my garage floor then install the engine and transmission as a single unit.

 

Dude, I'm sure you're all good. You're not gonna know till you drive it. Where are you on the rest of the project?

those speed bleeders are awesome. They make bleeding the clutch so easy.

 

Thank you, Firechicken! This transmission has taken me all month and I won't have a chance to work on the car until early December. Engine bay is painted and the front suspension is installed. All of it is UMI including their K member and weight jacks.

The transmission crossmember will be next and then it's time to think about the rear suspension. I already have subframe connectors but they aren't installed yet. I need to start a build thread on this car.

I was really surprised how well that SPEEDbleeder worked! Almost like magic!

 

You're gonna have so much fun driving it when you're done. I have a 550hp/ftlb w magnum f close ratio going to a 9 in w 4.11s. It's perfect. And it's just really a blast to drive. I have a set of 305/35/18 nt01s on the rear and they keep it planted really well. Once the tires are warm the car is really predictable.

that 427 is gonna be so fun.

 

I know that I'm going to have to replace the rear end. Ford 9 inch is the popular option. I did a bunch of research this past spring and read that a lot of people complain about noisy 9 inch rears. Does your 9 inch rear diff make any howling noise?

The current, fairly new 17" Nitto NT555 G2 tires on the IROC aren't going to cut it. I have the same tires on my Fox coupe (in my signature) and I might as well be driving on ice. No traction off the line, whatsoever. With the Mustang, I did some autocross in October and the NT555 G2 tires were the weak link, for sure!

 

I have 3.25 gears in my MWC 9 inch and they don't make a damn sound it's super smooth. I also run a Yukon grizzly locker and it makes a clicking in parking lots which is totally normal operation

 

There are a lot of sounds from my car. The exhaust may be a little too loud. The rear has mostly roto joints instead of poly. The trans you can hear a little while rolling in gear not giving it gas. It's a really slight gear whine. The 9 in when I put it in was slightly louder than the stock rear. But I always felt that was more DT going from stock ratio to a performance gear set w 4.11s. The big noise from the 9in was it hitting the body! I needed adjustable trailing arms to set it back 3/4 of an inch to get good clearance between the torque arm mount and the tunnel. Once that was done it was awesome. It did take a little time to dial in the rear suspension wise. I'm really happy w the rear. It has an auburn race posi from the early 2000s in it. It's totally a pain in parking lots w tight turns but that's to be expected. So I don't think the rear was/is loud, But now all I hear is blower and exhaust

If I had to do it all over, I use a 9in again.

I don't have a rear sear so, I think the rear probably wouldn't have been noticeable if the seat was there.

 

My Trick Chassis 9" also whines, albeit above 45 mph. 4.10's with an S-Trac Posi. Trans also makes noise as when you are not under load. Finally the drone of the exhaust tops it all out. This thing is the opposite of a sensory deprivation machine. Everything makes noise and wants to kill you.

 

thatsupnow, you have a MWC 9" and other than the Yukon Grizzly locker, the 9" is quiet.

Firechicken, what 9" rear do you have? Reading your post, your 9" rear is now quiet with no whine.

Shifty, your Trick Chassis 9" rear whines. As far as your exhaust, I think that you have a true dual 3" exhaust system.

 

Yes and yes. It comes with the territory and I was expecting it to be honest. I really only hear it at higher cruising speeds. Im also not running any rear seats which Im sure help dampen sound as well.

 

As far as dampening sound, I think that the more material there is between the sound source and our ears, the more sound dampening. I agree that not having rear seats will result in you hearing more rear end noise.

 

Yes sir quiet and smooth as butter. It'll handle everything I can throw at it

 

I have a moser. It's pretty quiet but I think that's got to be in relation to the other sounds of the car. I can't imagine my 9 in is magically quieter than the other people who say theirs has a whine, maybe it is(?)! I feel like the trans is much more noticeable coasting in lower gears. I have a 3.5 in exhaust to a spintech dual 3 in out muffler. It's pretty loud. Before the blower I didn't really feel the rear made much noise, now it's not even in the running. I like the comparison to the opposite of a sensory deprivation chamber. I feel like the car is more of a sensory bombardment chamber that is a blast to drive!

 

Probably like my LS376/480 swapped Foxbody coupe, your car is loud and just has a lot of sounds. Typical of older hopped up muscle cars with aftermarket performance parts and very noisy; the opposite of a modern, 21st century car.

The plan for my IROC's exhaust is a 4" single. Probably the 82-02 Camaro/Firebird "Sinister" Exhaust System 4", HAWKS

 

w this exhaust I wouldn't worry about gear a little noise from the rear!!

 

I guess all that exhaust noise would drown out any gear whine.

If I buy the Sinister system, I probably will buy a muffler for it to quiet it down some. My wife won't ride in the car if it's too loud. Before I had tailpipes installed on the Mustang, she wouldn't ride in it. The dumps were just too loud. I imagine that the Sinister without a muffler would be similar.

 

Yeah, my wife says it's literally a sensory overload.

my kids love it thought, one of my daughters asked if she can have the car when I'm too old to drive it. I was pretty psyched she's that into it. We're building an old Bronco together. That will be quieter so maybe my wife will like that more!

 

ANOTHER UPDATE

Over the past 10 days, I've been thinking about this and I started to get real uncomfortable thinking that I may have to pull everything back apart later on if things aren't right. I decided that it would be super easy right now for me to remove the transmission to bellhousing bolts and slide the transmission back and away so that I could look inside and confirm that the pilot bearing was undamaged and still in place. I did and it all looks to be perfectly fine !


Not the best picture but you can see that the pilot bearing is still in place and doesn't look like its damaged at all.

When disconnecting the transmission, everything came apart easily with no binding. When putting it back together, it went in easily and smoothly like it should've gone in weeks ago. I don't think that I need to be concerned with this any more. It's good!

 

UPDATE #3

After dealing with a steering center link to engine oil pan clearance issue, I have been made painfully aware that I purchased the wrong $450 Holley LS swap pan (302-1.) I should've purchased the 302-3. This pan requires windage tray modification. Another $450 for the new pan and $30-40 for a new gasket ***and*** I get to pull the engine .

 

You can get the saturday special castings on Amazon which appear to come out of the same holley molds. I've done this with a few of thier parts and they appear the exact same for way less.

 

Originally, I was going to purchase the correct, 302-3 oil pan. Here is a picture of my notes from this past spring/summer:

The price was less then than it is today "on sale."

I'm pretty sure that I'd called the Holley tech line and the guy on the phone steered me to the 302-1 pan. I should've stuck with my original plan but I thought that he knew better than me.

Back in the spring/summer, I did look into these other, inexpensive oil pans that are probably made in the same china factory. Shifty, I know you've had good luck but some of the reviews talked about lots of rough, sharp edges, machining debris and even casting defects. With my luck, I knew that I'd probably get one of the bad ones so I bit the bullet and purchased an overpriced Holley like I did for my LS376/480 swapped Foxbody coupe.

 

I get it, honestly, I would probably do the same thing. You should be able to sell whatever you end up not using and get some of your money back. What motor mounts are you using with your UMI parts?

Here is a comparison of the two pans that I had in my notes. May be helpful to those reading this thread.

 

Wow, this thread is long...

 

I'm using UMI 2409 – 1982-1992 GM F-Body UMI K-Member LS Motor Mounts along with 2329 – 1998-2002 GM F-Body Engine Mounts, LS, Poly all bolted on top of 2407 – 1982-1992 GM F-Body K-Member, Road Race

The Holley 302-3 has a similar footprint as the -2 but it can accommodate a longer stroke and it has oil drain back provisions for a turbo.


The -3 oil pan is in green.

 

Those threaded ports for oil drain back would be pretty nice to have with a Provent oil catch can (like what Lingenfelter does). Closed loop, never have to drain the catch can.

 

The Condensate and Particulate Materials that get collected by a proper Oil Catch Can system are very NASTY stuff! ...And you absolutely DO NOT want that stuff going back into the Oil/ Lube system.


That Stuff needs to be properly disposed of, and never, ever returned to the Engine!