I'll just requote my self so I don't have to type.



Does our car do this? Nope

We have 2 elbows and what may be MAX 5 feet of tube. The restriction that you are REFERING too in your nuclear power plant example is already been taking care of in that GM made the duct work 2 OR MORE times the diameter of the butterfly and entry hole thus no restriction. It's funny how you guys think that GM fudge the numbers and say "Gee we have an engine that produces 140HP on the dyno now lets put a air cleaner on that takes away hp." Get real they can do CFM formulas. My experirment was to show you how you don't HAVE to over come the WOT short fall that you guys talk about, it's done for you due to different air pressures.

Again the restriction is taken away or made non existant by the filter being the right size for the engine. CFM fomulas size the filter and THATS WHY DIFFERENT cars have larger or small filters so there is adquit supply.

Where YOU WOULD gain on our intakes and has been proven on the dyno is port and polish the intake and exhaust ports.

 

Have you ever looked at the 3.1 intake tubing and the whole assembly? There are little humps and things in there that disrupt airflow and is actually there to be a "muffler" for the air. If you've heard a CAI at much throttle, you can hear a loud hissing noise. GM didn't think people would like that so they made the intake the way they did. This may be a horrible example, but think of a CAI, at least the way mine is, as a major polishing job. I used PVC pipe which is perfectlly smooth in the inside, thus alowing air to flow easier, not be swirled around and heated up, and move faster into the engine.
David

 

Wow...hell of an argument here! OK so, to whom it may concern, I'm not "butchering" my car. I'm not destroying anything original. I'm not cutting up parts on the car. I'm not doing anything that can't be readily undone. That's the reason WHY I'm not doing something like cut part of my air dam up, or my grille, or fender.. Believe me, I have as much respect and admiration for this car as you all do. It's a beautiful car and a magnificent engine..if only it was a lighter body, these things could spank a ***** any time. I get compliments ALL THE TIME on how fast she is, how nice she looks... I'm not going for a look here that's going to ruin the car aesthetically..I'm taking that in with GREAT consideration. That's why I'm using stainless steel and NOT PVC or ducting for it..it'll look higher class. I don't know if you guys can, but I can sure as hell imagine how it'd look...and I think it'd be pretty mean looking myself..a third gen riding up behind you, with a big old air tube and conical sitting in the passenger side high beam slot. I think that's intimidating.

Now that I've gotten that out of the way, thanks for all the tips guys..you've been a big help..seriously. All arguments about whether this will help or not aside, how can I make this thing work and work well? I'm just trying to get as many good ideas as I can here and put them all together into a workable model.
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A few simple questions to that effect...
*Is there enough vacuum to pull larger beads or small streams of water in if they're resting at the bottom of the ducting? Assuming I try to make a SLIGHT downward slope from the plenum to the opening.
*Should I place a conical up front like I planned, or build some sort of a box with a flat 4 banger-style filter?
*A friend told me he heard of some sort of filter material that you stick into your intake, behind your actual filter, that's supposed to absorb water in case you get some in but nothing as widespread as what a bypass valve is designed for...anyone ever see anything like this??
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Ok there, it's officially a novel. Thanks for all your help guys...I know I'm a major P.I.T.A. most of the time but your efforts don't go unappreciated. HOPEFULLY they'll be put to good use as well!

 

I don't see this as an arguement, simply two people of differing viewpoints trying to convince the other that they are right, like preachers of two different faiths trying to convert one another LOL. Ryan_Alswede believes that intake mods on our motors will not improve performance, due to the limitations placed on it by other components, and I disagree. Will a freer-flowing intake on a 3.1/2.8 improve performance? You bet it will. Will it be a noticable improvement? No. (on an otherwise stock motor, that is.) Some of the disagreement, I suspect, is due to the lag in response a message board format presents. It leaves way too much room for misinterpretation. Anyways, that's my story, I'm sticking to it. As far as your car is concerned, Nixon1, I wouldn't go the route of the high-beam intake, simply because it would mess up the symmetry of the car. However, I think a dual setup along those lines would be cool. The whole theme would be form following function. ....Hmmmm....maybe an aircraft paint scheme.....intake markings by the inlets.....
gunmetal gray.....
airbrushed 'rivets'....
"RESCUE" arrow indicating the door handle.....
tail numbers.....
'no step' markers......

Might look better, though, on a curvier car, like a C5......

 

First off, you'd want a water absorbing filter before your actual air filter. Otherwise your air filter would get water logged and swell, probably blocking air flow. Second your filter would probably be toast after that.

What I was talking about with using an inline filter would basically be reusing the stock filter from a dual snorkel intake. I would do it that way IF you're hoping to get a ram air effect out of the setup. If not, then a conical would probably work just as well if you're wanting a CAI.

In regards to water laying in the bottom of the ducting, it depends on a few things. One is the amount of space the water is taking up. For instance if you have a 3" diameter tube, and there is 1/2" of water in the bottom, some of it could get sucked into the engine. Now if you have a 3" dia. tube, but you have a 2" valley in part of it that the water is sitting in, it probably won't since it's easier for the air to flow above it. But in cold weather the water won't evaporate real fast either, so if water gets getting into the tubing, you've got a problem.

I suppose you could do place a small hole in the bottom of the ducting with a solenoid that would block it. Then, you would just have to small pins in the intake, and when there was water in the tube, it would allow a current to pass between the two pins. That would open the solenoid and allow the water out, then close it back so you didn't have a hole in the intake.

 

That's what I was thinking, I just don't know if you'd have enough room to fit the MAF in there between all the necessary routing.

 

If you can tell me how to wire up a solenoid, let me know. I've had ideas with stuff like this before but I'm not very good with electronics. Interesting idea with the solenoid...I don't know if I'm capable of rigging up anything that advanced. And Rag, I know it's asymetrical which was a turn-off initially, but after thinking about it, I really don't think it'd look that bad...I just want to put something on the driver's side to even it out. I'm thinking a black number, like the Saleens do it...me and my friends are starting our own car club kinda thing, so I could put my # there...right now there are 4 of us. Also, I've considered the dual setup and the only tiedowns right now are I'd have to relocate the battery somewhere else...perhaps my already-limited trunk space. And I have to work the pipe around all the hoses and stuff, especially the upper radiator hose. Easier said than done when it's a do it yourself with pre-cut pieces job.

Ok Joe, I don't have any of the snorkel intake stuff..I've got the can in the box. For an inline filter, maybe I could pull a filterbox off some junkyard 4 banger and use that... Because I do like the idea of ram air, although I hardly drive past 45 here. BTW, I don't have the MAF system. LUCKY ME! One less thing to worry about. I've got the manifold pressure thing instead.

 

So if it' even a K&N filter, and it gets a good amount of water, it's shot? I thought these things were supposed to be able to handle water...

 

 

It's my understanding that you can clean a K&N, although you use a special oil to do that. But I don't think that it is meant to get water logged. Although I don't have one myself, so I couldn't tell you for sure.

About the solenoid, I was thinking that maybe you could use one that's made for a sprinkler system. It runs on 12 volts, and is desigined to handle water. The only catch is that the pin inside is really small. They're made to handle pressurized systems, so they only need to open a little bit to let a lot of water flow through. So they may not allow water to flow out of the intake tubing fast enough. You could always try something on a similar principle, and use a solenoid to open a door or flapper on the bottom of the tubing.

But all of this is dependant on a certain set of circumstances. 1. You're assuming that this is not happening at highway speeds where the water is either kicked up with enough force that it doesn't "flow" through the tubing, or you're going so fast that when the water hits the intake, it doesn't have time for gravity to take hold and pull it to the bottom of the tube. Your best way to avoid this would simply be to put a bend right after the openning in the headlight. But like I said before, any restriction that keeps water out also hinders airflow. That's why so many people cut out the splash guards on the dual snorkle intakes, because it allows better flow. It also makes you more suceptible to getting water in the intake. 2. You are not constantly getting a steady stream of water into the intake. What we're talking about here is simply a system that is able to purge itself of water. It's a process that takes a certain amount of smooth driving. Assume that you use an openning that's capable of flowing 1/2 gallon a minute. Now you get 1/2 gallon of water splashed into your intake from a truck in front of you. So the solenoid opens up and the water starts to flow out. But 30 sec. later, you get another 1/2 gallon in the intake. Now you have 3/4 of a gallon of water in there, which is probably enough to flood the bottom portion of your filter. At this point it's going to take 1:30 to completely drain the system. If you continute to get water into the intake, it will eventually flood your engine. You could do this test to figure out how large of a hole you'd need to flow the amount of water you'd expect in the intake. Get a 1 gallon empty milk jug. Punch a hole in the plastic cap, with a hole puncher or screwdriver or something. Put the amount of water you expect you might get into the intake into the bottle. Put the cap back on and turn it upside down. Time how long it takes the bottle to drain. Too slow, try a bigger hole.

There are several options here, and there's a lot of simple things you can do to minimize the amount of water that might get into the intake. But try that test and see what sort of flow rates you get. If you find that it's not flowing fast enough even without the cap, then you need to redesign your system so that it won't let that much water in. I would say thought that in 90% of the cases where you would be getting a continuous stream of water into the intake, you wouldn't want to be driving anyway. And you'd probably be more concerned with things like traction and trying to see through those hurricane conditions to get home, rather than worrying about air getting into the intake.

Damn that was long! Well, I hope it helps.

 

Thanks...and I totally get your point. I'm not really worried about normal rain and vapor..I'm worried about those Florida FREAK days that rain enough to flood my ditch and make the mulch on the side of our house float away. I think I'll put the thing at a slope, and it's got to have a bend anyways to get into the intake...but maybe I'll put the end before the filter box to help preserve my precious filter. I'll try to find a 4 banger filter box with a 3 in. outlet, a 3 in. inlet if I can find it but I'll probably have to cut it.. And I'll just put a hole in the box behind the filter and insert my MAT so the temp is accurate. Sounds like a plan to me! I might pick up the stainless steel tonight...either that or go junkyard hunting in a few days.

 

If you want to do something simple and are gonna be going to a junkyard, you could just get the rubber plug that's in the door frame on camaros (and I'm assuming firebirds too). It's like 3" in diameter, and then you could just cut a hole that size in the bottom of the ducting and when it looked like it was gonna rain, you could just pull out the plug and have a 3" drain hole. Of course I don't know if I'd want to be messing around under the hood in pouring rain. When I went to Disneyworld a few years ago, there was one day where it got cloudly and then it just let loose. It only rains like that here once in a great while. But I guess heavy rainstorms are pretty common in FL? Well, good luck with the intake.

 

Pretty good idea..but yeah, I don't like to be SOAKED...but I guess it's either me or my filter. And yeah, the weather is pretty freakish around here. It's been insanely hot for the past few months, like 90+. Hasn't rained a lot. On a hot day, it'll rain a little..a light rain..and even the rain is hot sometimes so it really sucks. But on a cold, real dark kind of day, sometimes it'll just POUR.. Like I was doing 35 down a BUSY street with my wipers on FULL and defogger on and I couldn't see a thing.
Hey, I've got an idea about that drain plug! How about this.. I take a length of hi-test fishing line, and wrap it arond that little plug..and have like a little bracket to hold the line with, next to the plug.. Cute a tiny hole in the firewall and run the fishing line out..and when it goes to rain, I yank the string!

The funny part is...it's so simple and stupid that it might even work!

 

ok ok ok
so out of (1)replacing the stock filter with a K&N
(2)reworking the air intake to use a cone filter (i.e. home depot)
and just(3) buying SLP's CAI setup which one would produce the most gain for the car?

 

I think that as soon as you got the engine up to op. temp though that it would possibly melt the fishing line. And there'd have to be a lot of pulleys to reroute the cord from the intake over to the side of the engine compartment and then into the cabin. If you really wanted to do it though, you might just try like 18 gauge wire. Heck, you could even put it in a wire loom so that it's look like stock wiring.

 

#2 and 3 will be about the same, the SLP will look nicer, also cost about 10xs as much. Either of those will give you better performance over just the K&Ns.

 

Wow, tons of typing here! Gm actually had drain holes on some of their hoods, like the... oh, dammit, what year was that... 82 CFI? The hood would let air into the air cleaner directly, and it had drain holes for water so the engine woudln't hydrolock. If you guys find a trans am with the functional hood, grab it, and the air cleaner, and you'll make some big money from eBay. I saw it once; too bad someone beat the hell out of it, and took the air cleaner.

The stock piping is very restrictive, and should be shot, torn up, beaten on, cursed at, and replaced with something less restrictive. Since we're coming up with little experiments, run around your house a few times, then try to breathe through a drinking straw... that's how the engine feels. Sure, the TB may only be 2 1/2 inches in diameter, but the bigger the intake piping, the less restriction to the engine, and the better it'll breath.

Going on the "air vs water" debate, right, water isn't very compressible, but air is. Imagine water flowing through a pipe, and imagine the pipe is completely filled, without any air bubbles. You put a drop of water into one side and it will come out the other side. This doesn't happen for air, air is compressible, which is why ram-air works. Sure our TB may only have a 2.5 inch opening, but if we can get more air to the engine, we'll feel it on the butt-dyno. Want to hear something strange? Why do the 85-89 MPFI f-bodies have a MAF with a 3" inside diameter, if the TB opening is 2.5"?

GM also likes to restrict intakes because of noise levels, and situations such as those like even WE want to avoid (water). Ever hear an aftermarket intake? It's much louder than stock... and the general public doesn't want a loud car. If you guys saw the air silencer on the '88 2.5 I-4 mustang I worked on, you'd be amazed how restrictive that was. 'Fact, the Mustang guys usually get rid of that piece for "instant" free horsepower!

 

Now did those hoods build any boost? It seems to me that if there was drainage holes for the water that the air could try and equalize the pressure by going that way as opposed to building pressure in the intake.

 

Joe, the fishing line was a joke...hehe. Ya never know, though! Maybe I could duct tape a midget across my plenum, and tape a set of wrenches and sockets and stuff to his chest.....it JUST might work.. Now THAT'S what I call a pit crew.
[Ok, I think the Smirnoff is going to my head...]

 

Side note.. The general consensus seems to be some kind of opening in the system to allow standing water to drain out....so it's basically in case of some sort of catastrophic curse yourself for weeks thing. So how do I easily make something like this to release water during rain, but not allow unfiltered air in (I figure this is easy, just run the box instead of the conical, and make the opening in FRONT of the box)...but I can't run with the holes all the time, it defeats the purpose.... I dunno, when I think about it it sounds kind of impossible to do easily, like without much wiring or anything..but you know what they say, you think about it long enough and something will come to you. Well ok, no one probably said that...but yeah, it's still true.

 

I believe they had some kind of funky ducting that the heavier water would go into. The holes weren't large at all... air wouldn't go through 'em.

Nixon, I wouldn't worry too much about water unless you're exposing the element to the front of the car. The idea of putting some ducting between the outside of the car and the filter is a great idea. This would put the K&N far enough away so that hopefully the water can't reach it. Plus since the K&N uses an oiled cotton element, it helps keep water away (oil & water don't mix). Plus too, say one side of the conical gets clogged with water- you've still got the rest of the filter!

Have you thought about those choke pull-cables? Pep Boys and similar sell them, they're used to activate the chokes on older cars, and since they're chrome, they're a dress-up item (like chrome valve covers). If you make your intake ducting (between front of car and air filter) flexible, you could rig some kind of pulley setup. Lots of rain? Pull the choke cable, which raises the intake ducting up into the bumper. Rain stops? Push the choke cable back in, lowering the intake duct so it hangs below the bumper. Only problem I see is making the bracket for the intake duct strong enough so a highway-speed wind (55,60,65,105 mph) doesn't rip the ducting off.

 

Good ideas Tom, good ideas.. I like the choke part...that's intriguing...but the intake is coming from the headlight...in order to move it out of the opening path, it'd have to go BACK substantially. But I think that could be done. Here's one.. How would you go about placing a CONICAL in the middle of a ducting system? I was just going to use an airbox with a flat filter, but I hear the conical will help the intake air velocity out... I was thinking maybe build some sort of casing that expands over the front of the conical, that holds the shape of the conical but connects at the end into the ducting..so the duct air expands slightly into the space and goes into the conical from several angles, and back to more ducting. But the problem is right there....I don't have parts or equipment to fabricate anything, especially something that elaborate.

 

Do you have a drill? If so you're all set. Just get some sheetmetal, acrilyc, or whatever you want to make the first part of the ducting out of. Cut a square section that is slightly larger than the bottom of the conical filter you want to use. Then get a drill bit that's say 2" in diameter and drill a hole through the center of the square. Then take the ducting that will attach to the conical filter, we're assuming that this is a 2" diameter tube, and put it through the hole. Now attach the filter to this tube, and then pull the tube back out so that the bottom of the filter is flat against the square. Get some caulking and seal where the tube comes out. Then build a box around the filter, with the top of it having a hole that matches the shape/size of the ducting from the headlight. Just seal it all up good, and you should have a good setup if you want to use the conical filter. Just think of building something like the SLP cold air intake, only you have a tube connecting the box for the filter to the headlight so you get ram air.

 

I have been following this post for the past couple of days. Admittedly, this air vs. water theory is boggling my mind. However, If your using the high beam area as the entrance point, why not have a set of blackouts in the back seat in the event that a rain shower pops up? I really am not sure if rain really gets back that far due to the hood hanging over it. Next time it rains (whenever that happens) I'll check to see how much water actually gets back that far.

 

MD..there are many ways that in the event of rain, I could cut off the possibility of water going in...but the problem is, I want to be able to do it from inside the car cabin..so if there's a sudden outpouring of rain, I won't have to get SOAKED to keep my engine from getting soaked. That's what half of this discussion is about! It's crazy how something so simple can be so difficult...

 

Hey if it's gonna rain in the next few days, try this. Get the ducting that you would use just for front of the intake where the highbeam was. Install just that and then get like a gallon ziplock bag and put it over the open end of the ducting with a ruberband. Talk a drive through town or around the block or whatever, and see how much water you actually accumulate on the trip. FYI, if you get home and the bag's not there, you probably got a lot of water

 

DAMN good idea..why didn't I think of that? OH YEAH! I'M AN IDIOT! I might try that tomorrow...well ok maybe not until I get my paycheck. Ok, so...Saturday or Sunday?

 

Woohoo, 200th post! (shouldn't I be upset over the fact that I'm now wasting away my life on the internet instead of celebrating? Oh, well)

What were you planning on using for the ducting? I know you had said earlier about using steel, is that still the plan? You know, the more we talk about this, the more I want to actually do it myself. Although I'd been holding off cause I was kinda hoping to do a turbo setup sometime in the near future, although now it's looking like NOS might be a better route. Which means perfect excuse for a Ram air setup. I dunno, I was thinking of going and buying a welder and learning how to weld. Maybe I should get some sheet metal and have a go at it. I dunno, we'll see. I've had trouble making up my mind lately.

 

Ha..yeah, join with me man, let's start a trend! Yes, the plan was stainless steel so it'd be more professional and sleeker looking. Stainless steel with probably rubber PVC joints, or small lengths of regular ducting, wrapped in blue tape (the signature CAI color). The steel gets a bit pricey, but not bad...it pays for the look. Now here's an idea...use hi-temp engine spraypaint to paint the tubing. What do you think...a deep, bright blue or really shiny chrome?

 

Also...how do the headlights come out? I know there's the connector in back..which I tried to wiggle off but it didnt seem to work. First, how do you get that off, and second, do you take out all the adjustment screws or what exactly?

IGNORE THIS...I saw an old POS Camaro with a missing headlight and saw how that works. The clip is just on wicked tight.