Azrael91966669

my 3.1 is stock other then the v8 duel snorkle intake
109k miles
108.6 max hp @ 4600rpm
148.0 max torque @3200rpm
is that a good pull ?
loseing 30 hp and 30 ft-lb of torque? from factory rateings?

87blueracr

NO, only if you have some serious miles on the engine. if that thing only has 75,000 miles or so, you should be really close to the factory specs. chevy does have a thing about over rating all their engines, but not that much, they normally overrate them about 10-15 hp and the same for torque.

AM91Camaro_RS

they are rated at the flywheel from the factory. so, assuming you have an auto tranny, that's about right. if you assume a 20% loss throuh the drivetrain.

Azrael91966669

the reason i asked is because everyone that has a bit of mods like headers/good catback and removed ac/smog
all make 140 or so hp and 170 or so torque

and there modded and they reach the stock flywheel ratings


i just wondering if my pull was really bad or just average

i expected about 115-120 hp and 150-160 torque
then again most everyone there didnt expect it to even pull 100 hp lol
i only had him rev to 5000 "girlfreind screaming in my ear about cars gonna blow up"
lol


btw was replying to the 1st reply i got

but isnt that more then a 20% loss

i have 109,XXX miles and it is a auto tranny
at lest they told me my car runs very smooth

is there anyway to get up to the hp i was expecting?

headers are not an option as im in an emmisions county
and i cant pull any thing related to emmisons
is it worth pulling the Ac system ? would it make that much of a differance?
or would a good catback do that? has a 1.75" muffler on it now its so sad lol

really i just want it to sound better and add a few ponys
im not looking for the missing 30 lol

AM91Camaro_RS

that is slightly more than a 20% loss but not a whole lot more. Pacesetter hopefully is working on a set of headers for the 3.1s, also. Shoot them an email (gotta do KED's job here ) and show them your interest in the headers. A catback should help it, too. And maybe a high flow cat. what air intake are you running? you might be able to help it there, also.

Azrael91966669

well my car is mostly stock

AM91Camaro_RS

oh yeah, i forgot that you said you have the dual snorkel intake. that's good. have you atleast removed the baffles in the boxes? that's a clean looking car, by the way.

Nocturnall

Pacesetter makes a set of I beleive emissions legal headers for the 2.8, 3.1 and 3.4.

87blueracr

true, i forgot that you guys like to run the automatics, i get most of mine through to the ground. it really depends on the year with the hp ratings, cause my 87 is said to have 165 at the flywheel, but the 85 is said to only have 140 at the flywheel. forget the headers at first, start with a mild cam and some head work. maybe a chip depending on how far you are gonna mod it out! maybe a underdrive pulley set(jet chips makes a good one)

Dale

iTrader: (12)

Dynomax cat-back, I belive it is smog legal.
how old is the timing chain? If its stock, replace it (no real hp)
Maybe a crank pully? (are them smog legal?)
msd coil with some nice wires.


I belive all that is currently smog legal.

(btw, 5000rpm is about normal for these engines . Mine has been reaching 6-6.5k lately Tell the g/f to get her pantys out her butt. Its your car, and if you blow the engine you will replace it with a 3.4 )

Doward

Yep, you are right about dead on. Remember, dyno gives you actual power at the wheels, and GM rates their motors by themselves, at the flywheel

Now that you have a baseline, go ahead and do that timing chain, and get the Pacesetter headers/Dynomax catback. Then go back, and do another pull. Go from 10º to 12º base timing. Then do another pull. Get a new camshaft. Do another pull.

redraif

Here are my 87s pulls over the years as we tweaked and modded it...its an automatic

Back in spring 2002 w/ the 2.8L and 140,000 miles...with a out of balance bottom end!
Max Power = 107.8 @ rear wheels (+20%) = 129.36hp @ the fly wheel
129.36hp compared to 135hp from the factory.
Ram Air could do nothing standing still and it was quite warm in the building.
Those were also uncorrected HP #s.
Max Torque = 136.6 @ rear wheels (+20%) = 163.92ft-lbs @ the fly wheel
163.92 compared to 160 from the factory...That should make a little difference on the track
Max speed ran on dyno was 115 MPH

Fall 2002: 2.8L: new cam, but bad distributor with tons of endplay...timing still problematic & still out of balance bottom end

Max Power = 114.1 @ rear wheels (+20%) = 136.92hp @ the fly wheel
136.92hp compared to 135hp from the factory.
Max Torque = 131.3 @ rear wheels (+20%) = 157.56ft-lbs @ the fly wheel
157.56 compared to 160 from the factory...
Max speed ran on dyno was 115 MPH

MAy 2003: 2.8L : dist fixed...timing bumped up...still out of balance bottom end

Max Power = 116.3 @ rear wheels (+20%) = 139.56hp @ the fly wheel
139.56hp compared to 135hp from the factory.
Max Torque = 130.5 @ rear wheels (+20%) = 156.6ft-lbs @ the fly wheel
156.6 compared to 160 from the factory...
Max speed ran on dyno was 115 MPH

dec 2003: swap to 3.4...still working out bugs like fuel and timing

Max Power = 121.5 @ rear wheels (+20%) = 145.8hp @ the fly wheel
145.8hp compared to 160hp from the factory.
Max Torque = 208.2 @ rear wheels (+20%) = 249.84ft-lbs @ the fly wheel
249.84 compared to 200 from the factory...

2004: 3.4 & got headers

Max Power = 125.9 @ rear wheels (+20%) = 151.08hp @ the fly wheel
151.08hp compared to 160hp from the factory.
Max Torque = 203.1 @ rear wheels (+20%) = 243.72ft-lbs @ the fly wheel
243.72 compared to 200 from the factory...

2004: 3.4 & installed cut out...open for run...

Max Power = 134.1 @ rear wheels (+20%) = 160.92hp @ the fly wheel
160.92hp compared to 160hp from the factory.
Max Torque = 207.4 @ rear wheels (+20%) = 248.88ft-lbs @ the fly wheel
248.88 compared to 200 from the factory...

These last 2 runs pin pointed an exhaust problem...it was too restictive...I got a new system now...as I looked at my old one laying on the ground...I can see crimp bends so bad that they have reduced the 2.25inch pipe to more like 1.5 inch...now wonder the cut out helped the car...

Now to go test with the new exhaust!

Then I have 3 new proms that are looking for a home in my computer! Got to pop them in and see who is better!

91greenbird

iTrader: (4)

I think 3.4's are rated at 160hp and 200ft tq @ the flywheel

ThePooper

The timing chain is less than 6 months old, and it's a bare bones RS, with the only options being air and auto. We're on a low budget right now, but we were going to try a Flowmaster catback system; does anyone think it'll make a difference? We're looking for the most bang, with the least amount of buck.

AM91Camaro_RS: Thanks for the compliment; he worked his *** off to get the car looking that nice.

Dale: Yes, the car is his, but I bought it for him. Sure, it's in my name only because I get better insurance rates, but he blows up the RS and he won't have a car. Unless, of course, all you nice fellas and ladies on the boards want to help him repair it when he blows it up on the dyno. Hell, when (not if) he blows it up we're replacing the motor with a V8, not a 3.4, and slapping in a manual tranny while we're at it.

For the record, I wasn't "screaming in his ear" about blowing the car up. I'm a cool girlfriend; I like cars. You can check out the video I made of the dyno run here: www.thepooper.net/RSDyno.AVI

redraif

For em the flowmaster has been well worth it! I'm very happy with it! Sounds amazing as well!

Dale

iTrader: (12)

oo, now we get the real story, its not all his car . Must be nice to have a woman buy a man a car. I bought mine for my woman, but we broke up, so its mine now

Ok, then you have every reason to wine. If the engine is kept up, it should have no problems reaching 200k (mine was still running when I pulled it at 193k).

So unless its not taken care of, and drove like a mad man, it should last a while. And if your on a budget, the 3.4 swap is easier and faster then a v8 swap. But its yalls car. And if the plans are to swap to a v8 later, dont waist money on anything that wont swap to your new engine.

Cat-back will still work.
coil may still work.
Err, think thats it.

redraif

A v-8 swap is a pretty heafty undertaking, but a 3.4 swap can be done in a weekend. Just swap the 3.4 block for the 2.8 or 3.1...no wiring or computer changes!

ThePooper

Dale: The RS is his, just mine on paper alone. I would never take the RS from him, or try to tell him what to do with it. He's only 23, and I'm 25, so I still get better insurance rates even with my speeding tickets. He's a pretty good boyfriend, so he deserves a Camaro. Besides, he really does love the FBody, and I'm glad I could make him happy. He bought me a Firebird in March, so we're even.

Any kind of swap is a huge undertaking for us. We have no tools, and really nowhere to do an engine swap. That's why it's so important that he be easy on the Camaro until we're able to tinker with the car on our own. We both have the knowledge, just no means.

I appreciate the info about the Flowmaster. We've heard good things about Flowmaster systems, and the Iroc has a Flowmaster system. But comparing an Iroc to the stock V6 RS is like comparing the Firebird to my old VW GTI; apples to oranges. LOL

He does maintain the RS, that's one good thing. He just started a new job today, so hopefully we can start throwing way more money at the RS. He really does want to do the V8 swap, but we're starting to realize it's a lot more than we thought it was to complete. In all honesty I'm worse on the Birdy than he is on the RS, so the RS should be OK for a while longer.

We'll dyno the RS again once we get the Flowmaster system, and we'll look into the coil too.

Thanks everyone!

Dale

iTrader: (12)

Thats cool, really, the engine should last a while if its maintained. 3.1 has the revised mains with balanced crank. But yes, power compared to a v8 its nothing. Just a zippy daily driver that should be reliable.

If the car is "stripped" and no intentions of ever putting a large stereo system in it, you can get a crank pully. Its somewhat cheap. Wont swap to a v8 though. The coil needs to be installed with better plug wires at the same time, along with a good distrib cap. Wires and cap would then become a bottle neck with a hotter spark up front.

If you click on my site below, I have a 3.1 with alot of work done minus a cam shaft. I think its almost everything over the counter you can get for the engine. But tools and place to do some of the work becomes a big problem.

Anyway, both welcome to the site. If you have a question, search first then ask if you cant find the answer.

87blueracr

91 greenbird, i think that you need to do more research, cause the gen 3 2.8L put out 160 hp flywheel and 180 torque, same numbers as the fiero of the same year (87)

cooltc2004

iTrader: (4)

Where in cleveland are you and where di you get your car dynoed?

Dale

iTrader: (12)

The gen 3 is the FWD version which has better flowing heads and intake.

The reason the fiero had higher numbers is because of the exhuast.


2.8 135/160
3.1 140/180
3.4 160/200

I'm tired, them are right off the top of my head numbers

87blueracr

3rd gen camaro with 2nd gen 2.8 makes same power as fiero, look at any site that has history and specs on it for 2.8L that was also quoted to me from a dealer on my engine which came stock for my car.

87blueracr

please realize that that was on a engine dyno, not a chasis dyno, so the exhaust was not hooked up in it's final layout. that was just complete engine and headers with a standard piece of pipe. going to the outside via ducting. not like the chasis dyno where they put the car on the stand and hook up ducting to the exhaust tip.

please farmiliarize yourself with different types of dynos and how to use them properly before replying.

Doward

You, sir, are correct.

AM91Camaro_RS

yeah, the 2.8 RWD motors never came with 160 hp...that's more than the 3.1s had.

87blueracr

i can't find the link right now, but when i do i will show it to you guys, hell maybe you are right, but i could have swore that the 87 and up camaros and firebirds had a hi-po version that was only available in the f bodies and the fireo's that made 160hp and 185 ft lbs of torque. i gave my engine codes to the dealer to find out what kind of numbers it put out factory and i know that they said 160hp and 180 torque. maybe i got a diff motor that someone ordered from the factory with some better parts, but i don't think so, though that would explain alot including how i could take it before doing anything to it and smoking a similar 2.8 from redlight to redlight. i know that everything else on the car is factory(tranny and rearend) but they were rare parts on the list of how many 2.8's had them. i know that chevy quit making the berlinetta in 85 but mine got berlinetta badging everywhere and it wasn't put there aftermarket. i already checked p/n's against each other and those from the factory build sheet and they match the factory build sheet that was sent to me from the factory (via the dealer)when i went to them for some other stuff involving the car i had to take care of. i have had wierder happen with cars. hell my mustang was never to come with a 351C from the factory but the numbers match and they are consistent with what the factory stamped on the cleveland blocks. don't get me wrong if i am wrong, then i will say i am wrong, i am just trying to put 2 and 2 together to come up with the answer of 4 and finally things are beginning to make sence on some things that seemed weird to me when i bought the car 2 years ago in va.

anyone else got an idea as to what might be up with this car that it would have all this uncharactreistic stuff on from the factory.


by the way i bought the car from a old lady that kept it in her garrage(had it since it was new)

ThePooper

cooltc2004: We went to GMR Speed's grand opening on Saturday and Back Street Racing had the dyno there. GMR Speed is right off 303 in Hinckley. Pulls were only $15, so I guess it was worth it. I heard a lot of people saying the dyno was low on the torque end, though, so I don't know how accurate it really was. I know nothing about dyno's, having never had a car on a dyno before Saturday.

Morgan lives in Strongsville, and I live in Louisville (suburb of Canton.) We may be moving to Cleveland soon, closer to Ganley Chevy on Lorain.

redraif

Wow $15 is cheap...though ours usually charges $50 for 3 pulls, so not much different when you look at it that way! Though we know his is accurate. It knid of addictive once you start. Want to see what everything does.

In fact I'm going Thurs, just to test the exhaust...then going on Sat or Sun to test thenew chip with the Show crowd (f-body Gathering here in GA this weekend)

Can't wait!

SSC

Doesent make sence, when I got the GMPP 3.4L crate engine for the blazer it came with a dyno tag rating of 180hp (carb) and 210-212 tq. I always figured it was basicly the same engine they put in 4thgens except it had GMPP stickers on the VC's which wouldent work in the blazer anyway.

LT1guy

iTrader: (1)

Thats a GMPP crate engine, not a production engine. They're typically rated a little higher, since they usually assume its a non-emissions application.

Dale

iTrader: (12)

GMPP create had a totally different cam in it too. Cam is a VERY aggressive one for a carb application.

firebird45331

Not just the exhaust, I believe it had a different cam in it with different heads, not sure for fact, but I do know for a fact when I was looking for a motor for my fiero. The 2.8's had a completely different part number

firebird45331

I have seen independent dyno reports where the fiero's motors dynoed 160 at the crank

~87Bird~2.8~

no stock 2.8 makes 160 hp....my 87 bird didnt...no cavy ever did...and sure as hell no fiero...thats just some wishfull thinking...

firebird45331

dont know. Just stating what I read that was at the crank they put it on a dyno and they said they consistently got 170 hp out of it. I know my fiero has raced vettes, 300z's, camaros, firebirds, and mustangs and won.

redraif

Heads are the same 100% sure! Cam the same 99.99% sure! TB and plenum were diff, but not enough to really be significant in gains! PLenum is backwards compared to ours! TB is Holley! This is why the 2.8s had diff part numbers! 2.8s in the s10 are also a diff part number...different oil pan...diff heads (not as good)...they prob have a diff cam (not sure here)!

redraif

Those are flywheel numbers...yes they do! I have a friend that restored a Camaro with a new 2.8 crate motor...somehow she got it before they were gone! I talked her into dynoing it to see what a new 2.8 would do! Yes it will pull stock numbers! We figured the 15-20 percent lose in and she pulled stock HP and TQ numbers!

Yours and most on the street now will not becasue they are tired with 100,000+ miles and are in need of a rebuild! Heck at 50,000 motors really need a refresh! That is partly why my car is probably so low on the HP side...the heads were junkyard heads...(blown head gasket cracked heads...you know) Supposedly they were cleaned up and a valve job done, but whether it was really done or not, the car now has 66,000+ miles past that valve job! Just a nrew valve job could restore my low HP numbers to where they should be!

Azrael91966669

thought this was a Fbody site ?
and my dyno pull was on a Camaro not a Fiero

LT1guy

iTrader: (1)

Yes, its an F-body site but since their 2.8s are so similar Fiero guys and sites are a good source for information. They generally do a lot more with these engines than F-body guys, so better parts and info are usually available through them. Besides, a lot of us here also own Fieros!

redraif

Heck the s10 guys come here too! With not much aftermarket and with so little info ut there on these engines, its sometimes good to collaberate with others who have similar engines

firebird45331

The fiero could've been one of the greatest success stories in GM history, but they killed it off just when it started to get interesting. I saw somewhere that in 1988 the fiero out performed the corvette in every area except top speed. My fiero was an 87 and it didn't handle too bad. had a little bit more body roll than what I'd prefer, but with an after market roll bar set up that would take care of that. I loved that car. With the 5speed it was an incredibly agile car. There used to be a Fiero Store that had alot of 2.8 engine parts. Doing a lot of reading I found a few 2.8's putting out nearly as much as an LT-1

redraif

www.fierostore.com? was that the site? Still exists!

Had not heard of 2.8s in Lt1 territory dyno wise, but perhaps oin the track in the light bodied fieros...this I can see!

Can't wait to start playing with my Fiero!

~87Bird~2.8~

i dunno i no a guy who got a 2.8 crate motor from gm....acually i just bought it off him($500 CND)....and it only has 15,000 km.....it dont feel like no 160 hp...at the crank or the flywheel...maybe he was way to hard no it...but it didnt really feel much diff then mine.........

dose anyone no if the bottem ends in those r any better then the ones that came from tha factory

p.s. i hate fieros with a passion...sry to offend...but there just seem like a firebird with traning wheels....im srue they work good...small cars r just no my cup of tea tho...

redraif

No it feels like 128HP...remember the 160 is flywheel numbers as you stated! With the 20% reduction for an autos drivetrain loss, you get 128! No to mention the accessories robbing power so 128 is a generous figure!

firebird45331

the muncie 5 speed is an efficient tranny. I never driven a GT with an auto, but with the 5 speed it handles the power pretty good. I love fiero's, I love firebirds, and some of the mustangs are even growing on me. If I could have any car I'd have an 88 Fiero GT with a northstar conversion. I love firebirds and T/A's with a passion, but a friend of mine had an 86 T/A with Tuned port injection. He had a shift kit in it. It simply didn't compare to my fiero. My fiero ran a solid 6 second 0-60 and had a 1/4 mile speed of around 98 mph. Which isn't the greatest but for a v6 that's pretty darned good. Granted I wasn't the original owner so I have no clue what was done to it. and it seemed faster than other fieros.

redraif

Yeah a stick is the way to go! 15% I believe is the drive train loss...so less then the auto and you controll the shifts to make better use of the power band. Much better in cars like the Fiero! The biggest advantage the fiero has is the engine placement and the fact that is it so light. I would hate to think how much better my engine would perform in the lighter fiero! It would actually be able to run respectable times in the 1/4 mile!

firebird45331

i genuinely wish they put the 3.8's or the 4.3 in them. Imagine a fiero from the factory with a 3.8 SC in it?

~87Bird~2.8~

theres a guy were i live who has a speed shop...he has 5 fieros parked out front....i think he might like them 2

haha...way off topic...my mom just bought a 67 hardtop convertable(vinyl roof)....its just a 6 cylinder auto...radio delete...haha...but it looks mean goin down the road....plus it weights 2600 lbs....

firebird45331

where's mallorytown at? I'm north of dayton in Greenville