I'm tryin to get my 2.8 to run real awesome. So i figure next step after tune up and pcv and oil change and blah blah would be to tackle the spark. I would like to go with MSD. Thing is I have no clue what to order? can someone help me here......

 

MSD has a stock replacement coil. its the blaster. make sure you get the "dual connector" one. you can run the MSD box also but it really won't gain you much, if anything.

 

also look for a cap/rotor kit. msd, accel and blue streak all make good ones. new 8mm or larger plug wires and maybe some platinum plugs. make sure all the wires to ur coil r in good condition as well

 

What coils are available for the 3.1?

 

they r all the same. any gm 2 connector coil

 

I have accel wires on my car and accel cap and rotor, most people on here perfer the taylor wires. Also i have a accel coil but most people perfer the more powerful hypertech coil.

Also for the ignition box you can use the msd 6a or msd 6aL. Mallory makes a cheaper ignition box i think.

 

Stock coil 38,000v
MSD Blaster 48,000v
Hypertech 53,000v

Do not bother running an MSD 6a or 6al box on a modren car. The factory ECM controls the spark dwell just like the MSD box does. It would be redundant to put on one the car, yet many do not knowing better.
Just put on a good coil, good wires, NON-platinum Autolite plugs and be done with it. Make sure all of you factory sensors and alternator is up to par and functioning properly and you will not need a bandaid fix like a 6a box.

 

i agree with your post but just out of curiosity (sP?) why do you recommend not putting on plat plugs? just wondering if its bad for the car or bad experience, thx

 

What happens with Platinum plugs is they are designed differently at the electrode. Platinum electrodes are much more tiny. Yes the platinum is stronger, but the voltage is condensed down to that tiny point making a hotter spark.

Here's the drw back. When youstart upping your coil performance, the ingnition spark becomes so hot the it will burn up that tiny tip on the platinum electrode within about 2 weeks and your peformance goes down from there to level off below the spark table of a standard flat electored spark plug.

Platinum plugs on a High Voltage ignition system are just a cheap high for a few weeks at most then they burn up.

 

I happen to know the best Ign Man in the business.
Dave Ray, AKA The Professor The IgnitionMan
He designed most of everything used in cars today and builds for all the top teams still today.

He is very adamant about only using a very select few coils for any app. Epoxy coil are out from the get go. [In cap HEI is crap, go external.] They hold in heat. You need oil filled coils but even then you gotta shop for the right ones. Everyones makes 4-5 different oil coils but its seams only 1 of each kind can pass his final inspection and get Dave Ray approved.

http://viragotech.com/buickthunder/f...opic.php?t=195

 

I agree with what RTFC Dean said but from my own experience
ACCEL MAKES THE BEST STUFF
AND
I gotta go aginst RTFC on this because from my own experience
I haven't given my car a tune up in about 2-4 years.
I've got a 3.4
I use Bosch Platinum tip plug
Accel coil
Accel 8.8 plug wires
Borg Warner Power parts Cap & Rotor (Brass contacts as in Accel)
I passed smog real easy other day, after adding my new cat convertor & oxy sensor.
I've put about 20,000 miles on the car since my tune up ages ago.
That's all I can offer
Milage is still very good too.
I do agree on oil packed coils, too. Accel is probably built like that.
What ever coil brand ya settle on, it's a plus
AND changing timing chain is the biggest assist in the tune up list ya can do!
My own experience and I'll bet you'll get atleast 20 others with similar or different opinions, too.
Part of the fun hanging here!!
One last thing
One Accel coil on a car of mine?
Has over 100,000 miles on it and is over 13 or more years old. Still works great. Yes that car also uns Bosch Platinum plugs, too.
Sorry Dean that's just the way my toys have worked!
That's my Accel coil on firewall back there. One of three Accel coils I use. My Corvette also uses Accel coil, too. And Accel plug wires.
Coil should run ya about $30-ish range.

 

I have a MSD direct replacement coil a holly ignition module you can also get a MSD one as well the V6 and V8 ignition modules are interchangeable. MSD wires work awsome all the other wires i had melted on the egr valve. MSD 6al helps but not a night and day difference you can feel the difference in the upper rpm range. I also like to use AC rapid fire spark plugs they work great better then the standard ac delco's and bosch

 

I've had bad experience with Accel. Not quality-wise....I haven't run too many products of theirs....but power-wise. I had Accel wires, and the car performed no different. Then I put on MSD wires, and actually felt a difference, seat of pants. Plugwires usually provide no '***' horsepower, and yet I felt a difference. That's pretty astonishing.....only plugwire change I've ever done that provided a noticeable increase in topend power. And the Accel wires were within 1 month old....just decided to do my whole ignition system over as MSD.


For your car, I wouldnt spend the buck on MSD, but I wouldn't necessarily go with Accel either...

Personally, I've had GREAT luck with Taylor products. I ran their SpiroPro 8mm wires on my old 3.1 Camaro and they were outstanding wires, and priced better than MSD.

 

i'm running taylor wires, they are a fantastic product. very well priced

 

The ECM controls the dwell time, yes. But a CD ignition is still a great idea. At higher RPMS, when the dwell time is minimal and cannot fully charge the coil, a CD will charge it so you get a hot spark.

 

But so will a tighter wound aftermarket coil and a good set of low 50 ohm wires to release the energy without the coil heating up on the faster and larger charge and discharges.

 

There is a point where there just isn't enough time to charge the coil.

However, since this is the V6 board, and its very unlikely folks will reach that RPM, I guess it doesn't matter.

-- Joe

 

does 7,000 rpms count??

 

Sort of. Thats prolly about the limit on a v6 for dwell, without me taking out a calc and figuring it out.

Why would you rev a 3.1 to 7k though?

-- Joe

 

i have the msd 6a box. no stock ignition here. i take it to 7k or close to it anyways cause it makes good hp up there...

 

i agree with alan on this one, theese engines were ment to rev with a little intake and exhaust help

 

Let me give you some facts and a story of experience.

I have a race Vette with a SBC 327 that spins 8500 rpm's (we are not all kids on this V6 board)

I used to be sponsored by Centerforce and I am the guy and car that tested the development of Centerforces Dual friction clutch in this Vette. Now I mention centerforce because they were an MSD dealer also and GAVE us all the MSD products we desired. All the boxMSD crap on the car made no differenceat all in the cars performance to those rpms. Matter of fact I took the crap off the car after having two different boxes and setups "they installed" fail on us from lack of reliabilty- check any race board you'll see the history of non-reliabilty of MSD products, yet they still are a big name in raing with high contingencies so alot of people run them for the cash. That MSD advetisng in racing is what sells many products to the street rods.

Now the car has gone back to the same ol triple bering Mallory dual point distributor and the Accel Oilfilled Coil with the taylor 10.5MM wires on it and it pulls like a frieghttrain all the way up to 8500rpms just perfectly fine- matter of fact I think personally it has more crackle and response to it without the msd box at those rpms.

I am not a fan of MSD. I am a big advocate around these boards of giving person outlooks on products I have bought and tried whetherthey are good outcomes or bad. Not all I own is the best jsut because I have it.

 

I appreciate your feedback on your experiences. I used to use MSD, then tried without it, and found on a blown application at high RPMS you just don't have enough time to recharge the coil to get a good spark.

Get yourself an ECM bench, a battery, a coil, and a plug grounded. Twist the bench up to 8500 rpm and watch the spark, vs 3500 rpm. You'll see what I mean.

Thats why CNP is such a better setup for v8 applications.
But again, we're talking high rpm / high cyl pressure vs normal cars.

-- Joe

 

????

I just stated I have a 327 V8 that soins 8500rpms and puts down 540RWHP.

The MSD crap made no difference from the high output mechanical ignition system I run on this car.

Talk to me when you can do 8500rpms and put down 540 hp

 

Here's a shot of what we are talking about. Yes the license plate boasts 60mph in 2 second- three was taken already. It does it in about 3.2 but the license plate gets the point across in the rarity that I have the street tires oon it and am driving it on surface streets like pictured above.

Yes it has a mechincal ignition that has been setup and tested on by Centerforce on their distrubutor wheel. Whatgood is an MSD box at 8k+ if your distributor is wobbling spark? Mine doesn't. Its a 3 bearing shaft that is precise up to 12,500k

 

i can, i can. mustang is coming down at the end of august to florida where it will get a new fuel cell and new brake lines and new fuel lines, where i can give her the lovin that she deserves. i have a blown 351c that puts out over 600hp easily and i run a mechanical ignition system like dean, and like dean we tried the msd ignition stuff, i lost horsepower and my times on the 1/4 went down almost .25 seconds. we chucked the msd stuff into a bonfire one night and put the equiptment we had on it back on. i agree with dean. msd ignition boxes are better used at the scrap yard. and the boxes they came in, well use them as toilet paper.

dean has the experience as i do and combined we have well over 30 years of racing and engine building to our names, think we don't know what we're talking about? think again if no!

 

I'm at around 600 at the flywheel, at 6400 rpm. Street car, passes california emissions, etc. Good enough for me I think.

Again, if you tried it on an ECM bench you'd see what i'm talking about. I understand your car runs fine at 8500 rpm, and thats absolutely wonderful. I'm glad for you. But I don't know how much more I can try to explain something.


-- Joe

 

Never said or implied that.

I'd love to be there when the motor went slower with the MSD. Thats very strange to me. What did the wideband show?

Sometimes good enough is good enough for some folks. If I plugged an MSD box in and the car made less power, I'd want to know why rather than chuckle and toss it off to the side. But some people would rather go with whats proven, rather than learning new stuff. It's understood, computers, scanners, datalogging utilities - they scare some people.

-- Joe

 

Nice vette btw. I like the color too.

 

Anesthes,
I think what I am trying t say without being a total *** about the subject is that most people running an MSD 6a or 6al box assiting there coil spark are still running the standard distributors that will show signs of spark scatter even at 5000rpms in the average case (es[pecially if the distributor is 20 years old with 150k on it.)
I don't care how much juice yopu are putting out at upper rpms, if you are getting spark scatter then the motor will not rev clean and powerful and may even knock worse up top.

fact 1)As long as you are running a very powerful coil with less windings, it is "married" towards running higher rpms and will rejuvenate quicker than a stock coil with more windings.

Fact 2)As long as you are running a very good quality (meaning insulated for heat BOTH from what the coil produced itself from charging and discharging, and heat sheilded from the engine bay) then the coil will runn cooler at high rpms and maintain the voltage charge without voltage drop.

Fact 3) helps fact two tremendously- having very low resistence plug wires so that the voltage can b completely discharged through the wires to the plugs as quickly as possible without resisance that builds heat in the coil- other wise the cooil does start to sweat.

 

RTFC what is your view on mallory is it the same as MSD?

 

dean, you mentioned spark scatter without a good distributor... obviously this is a concern to me since i do run higher rpms than most people on here. i have gone through my distributor but, is there anything else that i can do to it to try to help it? i run a msd cap and rotor on it (i know...) but everything else in it is just oem replacements...all relatively new.

 

anesthes, if you ever find a carbeurated 1970 ford mustang 351c with a wideband on it, let me know. i don't have a bit of computer controlled stuff on the car. never have(except for the msd ignition that is now in the scrap heap) and never will run anything controlled on the car. when the car gets tuned, i do it and i do it by ear and smell. the engine will always tell you what she wants unless you don't know what to listen for. to check it when i am done i do hook a a/f sensor at the taipipes to double check that she isn't too rich but normally i am right on the money.

 

Uhmm. So when you dyno a car, you don't hook up a wideband to record AFR thoughout the powerband? How do you tune?

Oddly enough, I just got rid of the 351c that was in my garage for like 8 years now. It's now at my friends house, hopefully for good.

So the a/f sensor, tell me what exactly is that? Narrowband hooked up to a gauge, or wideband?

Theres nothing wrong with 'old way' of doing things if your happy with it.

-- Joe

 

Run a crank trigger setup. Or, better is a reluctor in the center of the crank. For some reason I think the 3.4's are this way. GM uses the center of crank location for several reasons, one being misfire detection.

Spark scatter on a distributor is mostly caused by where it is located. It ends up being driven from the end of the cam, which is driven from the front by a timing chain. Then the oil pump is being driven off the distributor. All this adds up to a lot of herky-jerky motion driving the distributor.

Data logs will show how bad it is via the DRP field.

RBob.

 

First of all, theres no reason to be a 'total ***'. Sharing your experiences are only going to help people.

Now, dealing with the mechanical limitations of a stock dizzy, thats another story. I think a couple of posts up I recommended going to CNP for a high reving v8 application. And it's true, once you've solved the problem of recharging the coil fast enough, you have to deal with the dizzy.

Some what, but there is still a minimal dwell for full power output at xx input voltage. And then you have to deal with it burning out ignition modules because the module can't supply the amount of power you need to charge the 'powerful coil'..

Ok, but that has nothing to do with what I'm saying.

Yes, but again has nothing to do with what I'm saying.

All of what your saying are true facts about an ignition system, except the part about CDI ignitions being useless.
Less resistance in wires, propper grounds, insulated coil, tight windings, dizzy designed to spin in excess of 6500 rpm without wobble, all make up an efficient ignition system. However, I think your missing the point about effective recharge and discharge of the coil. The coil still needs xx amount of time to charge at yy voltage to produce cc current to the plug. Numerous OEM applications switched to a CDI style ignition to deal with this problem, others have switched to the better solution of CNP/DIS - whatever you want to call it.

-- Joe

 

The 3.4 I put in my sisters car to replace the 3.1 had both the crank position sensor, and a cam sensor. Had a neat dizzy plug in the back to run the oil pump. Wish I could find a OEM plug for my setup vs the expencive MSD version.

I'm still considering a waste spark or CNP setup on my firebird. The only issue I have with the waste spark, is I think with a big cam that has overlap it might actually ignite the charge on the exhaust stroke. Perhaps not the appropriate thread for this, but I'd like to discuss that theory at one point.

I do have a waste spark setup from a '96 crown vic. Two coils, 8 wires. I'd love to see if an EDIST would drive it off the '749, but I'm just not sure what I want to use for a triggering system.

-- Joe