Hey yall, I just yanked my motor to replace timing chain, all gaskets and that stuff. Well i went to start it today and i thot i had #1 on TDC and set the wires correctly, it started but ran rough and sounded like it had major spark knock. I am not good with the timing, So can any one help me out? I would search but i had to start this project at a rather bad time to use the message boards, since the search isnt working The second question is does anyone know how many quarts of oil i need in my 5spd tranny and what kinds the best? I know I should post in the tranny section but hey, I am already here.haha..I am really bummed it wont run right. help!

 

You are using the firing order 1-2-3-4-5-6 in a clockwise order, correct?

 

yes. I am doing 123456. How should i set everything to top dead center?

 

first off, make sure your #1 cyl. is at TDC on compression. #1 is on the front passenger side of the engine, odd cylinders on passenger side and evens on driver side. From there, take off your dist. cap and make sure the rotor button is pointing at the number 1 contact, (should be pointing near middle of intake, I think). If all is good so far, than make sure all wires are connected to the correct cylinders, the firing order is 1-2-3-4-5-6 clockwise on the dist. Hope this helps

oh btw the 5-spd takes 3.5 qts of ATF

 

Look at melicalis post, same problem. Its just a few threads down here. I have posted pictures of dizzy and cap, as to how its to be arranged.

Also shows where the est wire is that you need to disconnect.

2nd, did you have to adjust valves for whatever you did, how did you go about re-setting them?


I assume your car is an 89 with a WTC t5? If so, it takes ATF dextron mercon 3 (or higher). Yes, thats right, it takes auto tranny fluid. You fill it up tell it comes out the fill hole on the side of the tranny when the car is level.

 

Thanks guys. Yea i knew where each number cylinder was. But how can i tell its at compression stroke accuratly? Should I pull my dist. out then put it to TDC then put it back in? and if so where should i point my rotor? then i know the number on contact goes to the rotor. And WTF..auto tranny fluid? lol..so 3.5 quarts. And I see two square threaded bolt things on the side of the tranny. Which one do I use to fill? the top? Thanks guys I h ave been pulling my hair out this week with the forum being down!

 

since a piston is up 2 times per rev, its kinda hard to tell. But spin the balancer tell the timing mark is on 0. Then try re-stabbing the dizzy. Like I said, I posted pictures of all this in micalis post. Its part way down the page, go in and take a look.

If it doesnt work, you werent on 1 TDC.

only way I know to VERIFY 100% your on 1TDC requires some of the engine being apart

Fill up on the top square plug. You cant fill it from the bottom hole

 

Hey, yeah dale is very helpful. check out my post got it running but not for long. What I did to find TDC. I pulled the plug for the #1 cly. My buddy turned the motor over until I could feel the pressure pushing past my finger, oh I put my finger in the plug hole, we checked the timing mark and made sure it was at 0 and we hoped this was TDC. I even had a straw or what ever, and put it in the hole to make sure the piston was on it's way up. I do believe you will be at TDC.

 

ok, still no luck, I relashed the valves, put it to TDC by the crank and put number one wire to the post the rotor pointed to, and still no fire, WTF!. The other day I got it running but it was off, it ran like it had a pop to it and wouldnt idle wortha donkeys ***. then we pulled the dizzy back out and tried to get it to TDC again, still no luck, it wont fire now. Can anyone please leave some input. I am also starting to think maybe my ICM is bad.

 

sounds like me. my buddy is coming over to work on my car tonight. I'm wondering the same thing about the ICM but before you replace it have it tested.

I had mine running but it wouldn't idle worth a crap. I pulled mine out and tried all different ways and I can't get it to fire agian. I'm at a big loss too.

I'll let you know what we find.

 

thanks man, yea we are in the SAME BOAT! ..and this boat sucks ***!.lol..well, im hoping my valves arnt tightend to much, but im going to try the easiest thing firrst. but def. keep me posted on what yall do.

 

We'll we tried different ways to point the rotor and nothing worked. I know we have good spark, cause we tested it. All we could get was backfire through the TB. A couple times my buddy saw flames. My friend thinks it might be the ECU. It might be, I tried to pull codes from the computer and I jumpered it wrong. I really don't know. Sorry for no help.

 

All you need to do to pull codes from the ECM is to put a paperclip on the upper right two holes on the connector under the dash, and then turn the key to ON but don't try to start it.

OOOOOOXX
OOOOOOOO

Like that. X's are connected with a paperclip.

Watch the "check engine" light. Each blink represents a number, the codes are repeated three times. Code 12 is always shown at the beginning and end, it means the ECM is on and working well enough to access the codes.

What follows is code 12, code 34, and code 12. The code 12's are normal, the 34 is mass air flow.

blink, (pause), blink, blink, (pause),
blink, (pause), blink, blink, (pause),
blink, (pause), blink, blink, (longer pause)

blink, blink, blink, (pause), blink, blink, blink, blink, (pause)
blink, blink, blink, (pause), blink, blink, blink, blink, (pause)
blink, blink, blink, (pause), blink, blink, blink, blink, (longer pause)

blink, (pause), blink, blink, (pause)
blink, (pause), blink, blink, (pause)
blink, (pause), blink, blink, (longer pause)
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I've heard its pretty simple to accidentally put the chain on 180 out. Maybe you just need to pull the cover and see if your actually aligned at #1 TDC compression stroke.

Backfire out the TB is almost always related in some way to timing.

 

I know now after I did it wrong how to do it. It's not pulling any codes right now. I had the car running before, not good but running. I pulled the dizzy cause I thought it was wrong and now I can't get it to fire agian. I got good spark though. I don't know what to do know.

 

I know that lots of people have had this before. Have you tried pulling the timing cover again just to see? This time when the #1 is verified at TDC? Only sure way I know of if the distributor is iffy and the timing sprockets aren't for sure is to watch the valve train as you turn the motor. After the exhaust valve closes, the next time the intake valve opens on the #1 pistons way down is the intake stroke. On its way up is the compression stroke, and when it hits TDC your timing sprocket indexes should line up. If you had installed the chain on the #1 TDC exhaust stroke it won't be.

Too bad search isn't working, I went through a LOT of these kind of posts a few years back. You could try that google thing.

Type in your search terms in google followed by site:www.thirdgen.org/techbb2

its not the best but its something.
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Oh yeah and you'll get some odd code like O2 sensor lean, or MAF low if your timing is far enough off to not run the motor. It won't say "your timing chain is 180 out". I wouldn't bother with the trouble codes.

 

Put the crank on TDC and look at the pushrods and rockers on #1 to see if they are relaxed. If the rockers are taunght and lifted then you need to turn the crank one more full 360* revolution to TDC again- they should then be loose and relaxed.

 

ok update..man i feel dumber than box of rocks. I went to start it and smoke came out of the tb then i tried it again and i backfired out of the hose in the back of the lower intake for the pcv vave hose. it blew it out it was that powerful. WTF u think is wrong??? If i dont get help ima have my car burned up.haha

 

Read my post just above this. You are off one crank revolution. Pull the distributor back out also and make sure it is goes back in properly seated on the pump drive and the base is seating flat onto the manifold.

 

I have my valve covers on so I can't see the rockers. Here's how I found TDC. My friend turned the motor over by hand and I took out the #1 spark plug, stuck my finger in the hole and as he turned it around I waited until the pressure was going past my finger and we new that we were on the compression stroke, so then I put a long piece of wire in the hole and watched it move up as he turned it and when he reached 0 on the timing tab the wire stopped moving. I could tell the piston was all the way up. Now should we be BTC or TDC? On the way up or leveled out before it heads down? Because I think we are TDC and all we get when we button it up is crank and a few puffs. Then a backfire if we hold the pedal down. I know it is MPFI but that seems like the only way to get it to fire right now.

I do know that it does run because we had it running. We thought it was off because we couldn't get it to idle. It would surge and almost stall then pick up for a sec and then back down. So I pulled it and tried to redoe it and I can't get a lick out of it. So what am I doing wrong.

 

I'll say for the third and last time that you are 360* off. You are on TDC but on #4, not tdc and on #1.

Air coming out the spark plug hole is NOT the compression stroke, its the exhaust stroke to TDC. Then down is intake stroke and back up is compession with nothing coming out. At the top of that you are on TDC and #1.

 

O I C! Thanks Sakeed7. I guess I am not as smart as I thought. no sarcasim intended

 

um if he has the spark plug out the air in the cylinder will go out that way. he may be off by 360* or whatever but it will still push air out of the cylinder probably more than the exhaust stroke cause the valves are closed.

 

There should be a **** load of air coming out on the compression stroke through the spark plug hole (with plug removed of course). If not then it is the exhaust stroke.

Just think about it, compression stroke, both valves closed, compressing the air(/fuel) in the cylinder, and there is no where for it to go, except through the spark plug hole, when it is removed.

Could be wrong direction for fireing order maybe? Get a pair f wires out ofg order? That happens to me every now and then.

 

my wires are in the right order, i have been hand cranking it and only feeling slight compression, but i got it started but ran like a lawnmower,it would only start with the distr. pointing all the way towards front of pass. engine. and i had to keep my hand on the throttle to keep it running. I dont know what, i have been doing this TDC bull**** for the pass couple days and im sure with the amoutn of times i did it i woulda at least hit it once. I dont know..maybe my ICM is bad and my fuel injectors were in crappy shape, the end of them on some cracked off, yo u think that would cause the car to run like that?

 

anyone? im starting to think it is my injectors. because the tips of them on some were cracked and stuff..i odnt know..i dont know about injectors so i wouldnt know

 

What the heck was I smoking late that night. I must have been thinking exhaust port and not spark plug hole even though I wrote that- Sorry, disregard this blundering error

See people, I do make mistakes and I admit to them.


Back to business.
Lets start from basics. Get the engine to TDC like we have stated in above posts. Pull the distributor out TO MAKE SURE YOU HAVE IT INSTALLED INTO THE GROVE PROPERLY- (This mistake bit me in the *** years ago in a VW. I though I had the distributor seated properly and was scratching my head for days until I pulled everything apart and realised it wasn't seated into the groove properly even though it was spinning.) Then set the balancer timing mark to 10* on the crank just past TDC. Re-stab the distributor and tighten the base with the rotor facing directly at #1(this is now static timed)

 

i thot u got the balancer to 0 and stab the dizzy and make rotor point to one? thats what i been doing and getting it on the compr. stroke..i get it to start but stumbles, so should i pull the diz. out and put the balancer to 10*? then stab the dizzy and make rotor point to 1?

 

The factory timing of these engines is 10* advance, not 0*

 

First off, are you using the forwardmost cylinder on the PASSANGER SIDE? THAT is number 1. Just be sure of that

2 - the finger method, with it pushing air past your thumb, works. You are on the COMPRESSION stroke of the cylinder, and when it comes all the way up, you want to have your distributor pointing DIRECTLY at #1. Run your spark plug wire to the number one, and going around clockwise around the distributor, 1-2-3-4-5-6. Remember, number 2 is on the driver's side, most forward.

One other thing, number 1 on the distributor should be (if you are standing at the front of the engine, looking at the distributor) approx 7 o'clock.

Even if the injectors are barely firing, you won't backfire through the throttle plate, with the timing correct. (no way for the partial combustion to go back through the intake valve)

 

You must have the timing tab set at 0*. When you get it started, with the EST unhooked, you then use a timing light to set it to 10*. Then hook the est backup and you should be set. But in my case I still can't get it to fire agian.

 

My ICM was bad! But here is the ultimate questions.

Here's what I've done: I've replaced the head Gasket, ICM, plugs and that's it.



I've attached a pic of component location. I have to fuse's by the battery. One is for the MAF and the other is for the ecm/fuel pump. I unhooked the one which I think is C4/ ecm, The car would hit like it was trying to start. I would unhook the other and it would do the same. I unhooked them both and the motor actually fired up for about 5 seconds then stalled. How is this possible?! I can keep cranking it and it still try's to fire but it won't run. Why?



Before when I got it to run all the fues's were hooked up and it ran, crappy, but it ran. I drove it up the street and back.


What does this tell you?

 

well i get it to crank up everyytime now, i replaced plugs, wires, cap and rotor. Now it idles but it shakes the whole car, when i hit the gas it shakes. I dont know waht would cause that. Do yall know what it might be?

 

Did you forget to put the brake booster vacuum line back on? When I forget to put it back on the whole dang car shakes like an earthquake. Its very easy to knock off and forget.

 

yes. its connected. I dont hear any hissing noises like a vacuum leak. I dont know..maybe a bad ICM? anyone?

 

you might have them check it, mine was bad. The car ran with it being bad. 34 dollars at autozone.

 

do you think that the 3.1 liter fuel injectors off tha beretta i got will cause it to shake when accl. due to multiple misfires? my timing is at 12* and idles fine, its just shaking..it shakes the exhaust and motor. when i give it gas it shakesthe whole car and when i rapidly give it gas it sometimes pops. I am thinking those injectors are dumping too much fuel. I dont know..ima try toget some more 2.8 liter injectors but there are hardly any at the yards around here.

 

I have 3.1 injectors (Multecs from an Oldsmobile) in my 2.8 and had no problems- and the car even passed the strict NJ dyno-emissions test. Of course, you could've gotten bad injectors...