Here's what I've done: I've replaced the head Gasket, ICM, plugs and that's it.
take a look here if you need to for the diagram
https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/v6/3...ons-first.html

I've attached a pic of component location. I have to fuse's by the battery. One is for the MAF and the other is for the ecm/fuel pump. I unhooked the one which I think is C4/ ecm, The car would hit like it was trying to start. I would unhook the other and it would do the same. I unhooked them both and the motor actually fired up for about 5 seconds then stalled. How is this possible?! I can keep cranking it and it still try's to fire but it won't run. Why?



Before when I got it to run all the fues's were hooked up and it ran, crappy, but it ran. I drove it up the street and back.


What does this tell you?

 

maybe I was jumping the gun a little bit. If I unhook the ecm fuse it try's to fire. If I unhook the maf, with the ecm hooked back up it really trys to start but backfires through the TB. If both are hooked up it won't fire to save my life. But I did get it to start up for a sec with, I think the ecm unhooked. I'm confused? Either way with one or the other unhooked it trys to fire!!!
What's up?

 

OK, I seriously think it's time to start over with the diagnosis. It sounds like you're just grasping at things now and are getting frustrated that none of them are working. It sounds like a serious Fuel Delivery problem to me.

Check to be 100% that you have Fuel Pressure at the rail.

 

Yep, the dreaded FUBAR combined with murphy's law.

I agree with 2.8boy on the fuel pressure. Get a gauge. See for sure if the pump is working.

MAF isn't needed and isn't used to start the car, the ECM doesn't listen to it until the O2 sensor gets hot enough to give a stable reading. My MAF sensor is and has been disconnected for almost 3 years. One of these days I'll get another one LOL. It just runs better without it.
Remember that a fuel delivery system is a mostly closed system. i.e. if the fuel pump isn't completely dead it will get pressure into the rails. Now when you pulled the fuel pump (its a fuel pump fuse there btw.) fuse, there was still pressure. It doesn't go away! Thats why they tell you to relieve the system pressure before you change your fuel filter. It'll squirt you in the face, gas in the eyes stings!

Pulling the fuel pump fuse and it running for 5 seconds sounds perfectly normal.

 

first I'd like to say yes that I am probably grasping at a really thin thread. I am not a mechanic but more a fix it because I have to kind. There are things that I don't know about this car and others but you guys are helping me. I'll check the fuel pressure and see what's up.

 

you get my email I sent?

 

Ok.
I agree that you need to start over.

List the problem(s) CLEARLY
List what you have done CLEARLY.

It sounds like you tried to start without fuses plugged in... correct?
It sounds like you tried to start without ECM plugged in... correct?
It sounds like you tried to start with MAF unplugged... correct?

Ok, first with the fuses pulled, you will get no fuel.
Second with the ECM pulled, you will get no fuel.
Third with the MAF unplugged, the Car WILL get Fuel AND spark (If operating correctly) but the ECM will throw an error, and go into default tables using TPS reference and other sensor references.

You said you were back firing, what is your timing set at? if you do not know, SET IT.
12-13* runs best on these motors. Also remember that plug -1- is on DRIVERS front, and to u nhook the brown/black stripe wire W/black connector on passager fender wall, otherwise you are not setting base timing.

The Ignition control module is a rare failure. It does happen, but it is rare. My truck has one with 250+K and still runs.

But once you can slearly list the problems, we can help.

 

check my othe posts, got it running but not for long. I've explained it more in there. The icm tested bad at autozone. I don't have a way of testing fuel pressure so I'll have to purchase something for that. I may not be at TDC or on 4TDC instead of 1. I had the car running before, it ran crappy but it ran. I drove it up and down the road. I'll have to check the coil and see if it's good or not.

I didn't think the car would even fire with the ecm/fuel fuse pulled, but it did. It starts to fire but not to the point of starting. I actually had it started for about 5 sec with one of the fuses pulled, just can't remember which one. If both are plugged in it won't even try to fire. Oh, well.

My buds are coming over tues. to help me figure this thing out. Can't I just unhook the line coming from the fuel tank and see how hard the fuel sprays to get some idea if the pump is working ok. I'll see tomarrow.

 

this is why you start one thread and see it through.
I know me personally pop in every now and then, and really do not want to read over 2 or more threads about the same problem, by the same person to get all the info about it.

 

FYI: Its not ECM/Fuel, its just fuel pump fuse on your car. They listed it because on other cars it is an ECM fuse.

It ran because there was still pressure in the fuel rail. It stalled after it ran because it ran out of fuel.

 

Hey, quick note, we tried restabing the dizzy and no fire. we only checked comp on on cyl and it was almost 130. We also looked at the spark form the coil and it more white to me then blue. Would the entire spark be blue or just every so often? I could see a little blue spark for a brief sec but it looked mostly white to me. don't have a fuel pressure tester.

 

well...

1. the cyl pressure is on the low side for sure. DId you do it with the throttle body open or closed? Yes it does make a HUGE difference. If it was closed, then I retract that statement about low pressure, it should be fine. Open however... yeah you need a rebuild for sure.
2. White/blue is good arc spark color. It is when it is red/oragne you have to worry.

Well you have confirmed spark, however the timing is still questionable, air is usally a no brainer. So that leaves fuel. Try to start, then quickly pull a plug. What does it smell like. It should still be alittle wet from fuel. If it is soaked, then you know you have fuel, and spark (timing) is way off.

I know it sound stupid, but do double check the wires for correct order, then for petes sake GET A TIMING LITE ON THAT THING.

 

Well, we pulled the plug, not right after trying to start it, and it smelled of fuel. It wasn't soaked but it did smell like fuel. If you mean the tB open like I was stepping on the gas, then no. I just cranked the motor over and the TB was closed. I need a fuel pressure tester.

 

yes, opening the TB as if wide open. Ok then the pressure is not that bad.

If the plug smells of fuel, your getting it. So that leave spark...
I still say CHECK the TIMING. Check base, and make sure it is 12-13*, if not SET IT to that.

 

That's not true, I'de like to see you try to start a motor with 15lbs of fuel pressure. They'll smell like fuel, but it won't start.

 

Man, I chasing good money after bad or so I think. I'm going to see if I can barrow a fuell pressure tester. I don't want to drop 40 bucks and find out that I have good pressure and never use it again. What about the low oil pressure switch? Could that do anything?

on a good note I found a 71 el camino for $300. straight body and no rust. needs interior and motor. I've got a motor!!!

 

Trust me, $40 for a FP Tester is totally worth it. You'll use it more than you think, especially if this car was neglected in the past.

The Oil switch only runs the Fuel Pump if the relay goes bad. It lets the pump run once you have cranked enough to build up some pressure.

Can you hear the pump running when you turn the key on?

 

yes I can.

 

True, but my gut says spark. Afterall, he has said that he has gotten it running for 30 sec's or so before, but it was running rough and backfiring through manifold.

I do not know about you, but that says he needs to check the timing.
That is a cheap $15 tool that he will use every 2-3 months to make sure it is good and not slipped.

You can rent a fuel pressure tester, then take it back and get money back when done.
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you need to stop throwing parts at it and look at things logically.
It does/did run for however an amount of time.
If it was not making near needed fuel pressure, you would not have been running. Typically these GM pumps either work, or they do not. I have seen maybe 2 in 16 years that slowly dropped pressure. The rest, just quit.

You also said that when it was running, it was popping and backfiring. Fuel cannot cause that. That is solely spark (timing). Hell ask your frinds to borrow a timing light, or spend the 15 on one. That will not be money wasted, you will use it time and time again.

 

As 2point8boy pointed out, you'll use that fuel pressure gauge more than once, trust me!

If my car ever starts acting strange, one of the first things I do is throw the fuel pressure gauge on it. If pressure's good, I know it's not the pump, and I move onto the simpler stuff.

When my first pump died (yes I'm on pump #2), I think I had 15-20 pounds or so of pressure (half of what is required), and the motor barely ran.

But- now as far as I've read these combined message threads; micali, your car was running good, then died- and you changed the ignition module (where are you guys getting "ICM" from? There's no "control" in the name), and then the car is still dead? Or did I get that wrong?

If I got it right, then it doesn't seem like the fuel pressure is bad- but it could be just one hell of a coincidence. But because both could've happened at the same time, check the fuel pressure anyway! Imagine spending $100's under the hood when the pump was dead to begin with.

Some prior-message-board experiences:

1. Try the "wiggle test" on the harness wires going to the ignition module and spark coil. NOTE that I did NOT say the Spark Plug Wires!! You want to play with those thin 20 gauge harness wires. If you've got an intermittant connection, your ignition module and/or coil might not be getting any signal at all. By wiggling the thin wires when a friend tries to crank the motor, if the engine roars to life, you know the harness was bad.

2. Another piece that Karl/KED85 (RIP) shared with us was that his car was running like garbage- he tried checking/fixing/replacing everything that had to do with spark, without any good result. Finally he changed the alternator- and the car ran like new again.

I say to first throw a fuel pressure gauge on it- when you see that 38 psi, we can "eliminate" the whole fuel system from the problem. You should also check dead-head (maximum) pressure; same procedure, engine cold, pinch the fuel return line shut, KOEO (key on engine off) and pressure should hit 60 psi on the gauge. Pressure should hold in both tests, otherwise your anti-drain-back valve in the pump is shot.

Next, pull the distributor out completely again, find TDC compression of #1, and drop the dist back in. To "ease" your starting, once the dist is back in, rotate the cap so the rotor's between the #6 and #1 cylinder posts. That will come "close" to 10 degrees advance and should help you start up ok enough to throw a timing light on it.

And when all else fails, get the GM Service Manual (about $80) from http://www.helminc.com for the GM service procedures and flow charts. That was the first thing I bought when I got my Firebird, and I've used it so many times that it's falling apart.

 

Ok, I've pulled the intake all the way off and removed the fuel injectors and the valve covers. I found that on the fuel injectors that there is this little pin at the end and on some of them are sticking out and others are flush with the end. Second I've checked the oil and it seems really thin. It smells of fuel and has no thickness to it at all. Should the fuel lines and rail still have fuel in them after sitting for 2 weeks? Mine did, it even had a little pressure behind it, a little.

When I manually adjust the rockers does it matter if the piston is up on the exhuast or the compression stroke?( if I said that right?)

So tell me what you guys think. Thanks again

 

Oil should not smell like gas.

Fuel rail should still have gas and pressure, yes. Means you injectors arnt stuck open, and that the... check valve?? in the tank is good. All very good.

When you set the rocker, it needs to be on top dead center. Put your timing mark on 0, then check your dizzy. It will be on either 1 or 4.

If its on 1, you adjust both rockers on 1, and several others on the passenger side, and a few on the drivers. (See repair book on which ones).

If its on 4, you adjust both rockers on 4, several on the drivers side, and a few on the pass side.

I've had to do it so many times, I have painted my rockers for which "pattern" I am to set them.

 

Why on the injectors is there a pin sticking out of the end on some and not the others? How would the oil get so thinned out? It almost felt like water, but it was not milky.

 

well, if you were constantly turning the engine over, with no spark, but with the cold start injector and injectors firing full tilt, the fuel can wash the cylinders and get into the oil.

 

ok, What would the litle pins at the end of the injectors be? Should they be sticking out?

 

I dont remember what the 3.1 injectors looked like. But if you still had fuel pressure after 2 weeks of not touching it, they arnt leaking.

 

Can anyone tell me if this is normal with the end of the enjectors like this?