tank12983

i was wondering if any one could put together a comnplete to do list/parts lists to make a third gen V8 killer. i like my 3.1l firebird and as gas price keep going up i'm liking it even more.i was also wanting to see your V8 killers and here some storys. i know that the last part there should be in the theoretical/street racibng forum but that forum deosnt seem to see much trafic.

P.S. eventualy i would like to turbo my bird but thats for a later time when my wallet isn't so light. also i'm not completely sold on the 3.4 swap in but i am open to the idea. so if i can keep the engine i have its just a bouns.

Thirdgen89GTA

iTrader: (5)

Start reading here.
https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/v6/3...irst-faqs.html

When you finish all that come back to this post and ask questions that can't be found with the search feature.

tank12983

fiirst thing i would like to know is wich of the ater market parts are the best for more power, because i saw things like the thermostats that i wasnt sure that it would be good to have one the takes the temp down to 160*.

one thing that i have already done is put a dynomax ultra flow exhaust kit on it and am planning on makeing a CAI for it soon.

grimmcs

iTrader: (1)

Check out these 2 threads.
LINK
LINK

Me and FirstFirebird seem to be the only ones doing MAJOR work to make a hight HP v6(if im wrong you can correct me). There are others doing work to make their v6 faster...but if you want a "V8 Killer", you have a major undertaking ahead of you.
It all depends how far you want to go. You willing to pull your engine/tranny? ...put in a 3.4? ...swap to aluminum 3x00 heads/intake?
Do a search, there is a lot on this subject. The search sucks...but it will give you a start.

Thirdgen89GTA

iTrader: (5)

The basics have been answered already. I posted to get you going on the questions that have already been answered long ago.

Power is made in the heads, cam, intake and exhaust. The rotating assembly can help if you cut friction anywhere you can, but the rotating assembly ultimately just needs to hold everything together so the other parts can make the power.

Read the FAQ, your questions have been asked before. Then come back and start asking unique and specific questions.

2.8RS

iTrader: (5)

Look at the stickys at the top of the page for a good list of parts. I am building an NA 3.4 right now. Here is my thread for just a mild build, I'm shooting for about 200 HP. Grimmcs and FirstFirebird are building the more powerful motors here and are doing great work with their projects.
https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/v6/4...3-4-build.html

backgammon7

how much boost do you think an 86 2.8 with about 53K could take and still be reliable

bl85c

iTrader: (2)

Without a computer swap and larger injectors you'll run into the stock ecm's limits long before the engine starts to complain.

tank12983

what the maximum power that i could develop with my 3.1l auto with all the after market parts and a CAI.

2.8RS

iTrader: (5)

You can make alot with these motors or any motor really. Just depends on how much you are willing to spend and work for it.

tank12983

i think i will have about fifteen hundred dollars to play with in the near future.

2.8RS

iTrader: (5)

3.4 block, ported 3500 topend, and turbo it.

Thirdgen89GTA

iTrader: (5)

$1500 won't get you V8 killer performance unless you are talking about TBI V8's or LB9 and slower L98's.

At that price point go find a LT1 swap. I found mine w/harness, aluminum heads, and transmission for $1600. That will give me 285hp to play with before I even DO anything to the motor. With my current exhaust system that should give me quite a boost over the stock LT1.

zs&tas

stop pimping the v8's!!!! everyone knows that if you want power easily to get one. he wants the fuel economy of hes v6 as stated earlier. if your careful and take time to search for cheap stuff youl go along way on 1500. and remember the end package is car & driver as one. ive beat loads of faster cars because people cant drive !!! LOL

forkvoid

iTrader: (1)

I think you clicked on the wrong forum.. perhaps you're meaning to be in here?

In other words: leave your v8 stuff out of here. We're all quite aware of the power made easily in an eight cylinder. If, at some point, we want it, we'll see you over in Engine Swap.

tank12983

another thing i forgot to add to the list of what i have done is i have all the hotchkis rear suspense parts except the torqure arm wich is eldlebrock. which leads me to a question about what are some good front suspension parts.

bl85c

iTrader: (2)

Really, if you want to make some power with these motors you should do a 3x00 top end swap- which could be done for less than $1500. 3500 parts are the best place to start when looking for power, but 3400/3100 parts can be had cheaper and will still get you good numbers. As far as front suspension parts go you can get thicker sway bars from many manuacturers, poly suspension bushings, stiffer k-members and strut tower braces from edelbrock. There's dropped spindles and tubular control arms and tons of other stuff to play with if you look.

2.8RS

iTrader: (5)

Just to add, if you don't want to spend the money on new swaybars then find yourself a set of WS6 or IROC swaybars off ebay or here. I have a set and they made a huge difference.

thebufenator

iTrader: (2)

Well......I have both a 2.8 Firebird.....and an LT1 Camaro....
My camaro is way faster and gets better mileage......

So if he was after better mileage he would go after newer technology :P
Not saying a 454 lsx would get 30mpg.......bhut generally newer stuff gets better mileage.

I'm all for having fun with a V6......but if your after "economy" power it wont happen. THe cost to make a fast V6 will far outway any mileage bonus you might get over dropping in a V8.

So.....do it for fun.....bragging rights......whatever. But if you after economy, it just makes no sense

zs&tas

yeah ok i agree power dosnt = fuel economy, but if your cruising a v6 will be cheaper than a cruising v8. although i also have to agree new technology does make a difference. the only thing i found with my ol lt1 was you could spend all week 'treading carefully' for fuel economy but then id come out of one turning heavy footed and blow the lot - watching the guage drop as the speedo rises! v6's just much easier to live with.

firstfirebird

iTrader: (3)

This cost me about $1k, weighs less than 300lbs (fully dressed), and should put 250hp to the wheels...


(click to enlarge)

zs&tas

still looking sweet, where you up too on the build?????

forkvoid

iTrader: (1)

I can't believe how beautiful that engine is. *drool*

xiholdtruex

that hybrid that firstfirebird is building is beautiful,its going to be sick when its done

tank12983

could some one post the link to the home made cold air intake instucions for me the one had no longer has pictures on it for some reason

tank12983

what parts (if any) from the after market parts list won't fit my fire bird because its a 90-92 instaed of a 82- 89

bl85c

iTrader: (2)

All of the parts on that list should fit, except maybe the chips.

You can spend much less building up one of these engines than you would a v8, even ignoring the cost of doing the swap. Most of the basic components are oem pieces available at any junkyard, and they can benefit from the huge resource of aftermarket sbc parts out there as well. Sbc lifters, rockers, valvesprings, rods and more can interchange with minimal machining (if any) and there's a decent supply of aftermarket 60* parts as well.

2.8RS

iTrader: (5)

First_Firebird's motor is mostly all made of stock GM parts, maybe the whole thing except for the cam. There may not be much of an aftermarket for these motors but there is some real good stock stuff at our disposal to use for power.

firstfirebird

iTrader: (3)

Yep, all OEM parts. Even the cam was only $147 with lifters.

I did happen to pick up some Clevite bearings for cheap, don't know if that counts as "aftermarket".

tank12983

would the engine from a grand national or gnx swap in like a 2.8/3.1/3.4 or would of be the the V8 swap

firstfirebird

iTrader: (3)

The bell housing bolt pattern is different unless you use the 3800. The 3.8 shares the V8 pattern.

tank12983

deos any one know where i can find one of those SLP cold air intake for my 90 firebird. im starting to like them just cause of how they look but the link to a how to on v6 CAI with pics would sil be apreaciated

grimmcs

iTrader: (1)

most people just take the stock plastic pipe out and replace it with PVC and a cone filter. Its basically routed to the stock position so its not a true CAI...search around there are a lot of pics of peoples set-ups.
The only real CAI that I know of its the dual snorkle that came on the TPIs and some of the 2.8s

nixon5

ok do this:

1. buy a welder
2. buy all the parts needed for a turbo instll on ebay (injectors and fmu are a must!!)
3. get piping
4. buy a colorful boost guage
5. set the boost to 5 psi for a quick test
6. have fun

this is going to be my plan soon just need to store away some more cash. I figure itll be a good way to learn my car and tons of fun when it all works

RITTER

iTrader: (5)

The Buick 3.8L turbo Grand National engine uses the buick/olds/pontiac bellhousing bolt pattern. If you were to find a GN/GNX engine, just get one with the transmission included.

micktroup

What Kind of motor is that in the photo- it looks beautiful! Is it smog legal?

tank12983

to try to be more specific whats the most power you can get with no turbo no nitrious

bl85c

iTrader: (2)

The limit's your imagination (well, actually your wallet). You really can't put a cap on how much power any engine can make. Spin it fast enough, get the heads flowing enough, raise the c/r enough and run it on nitro- ect. ect. If you have the cash there's always a way to eek more power out of it, naturally aspirated or not.

I designed an n/a 3.4 hybrid that would crack off 500hp @ 9K but it would need 16/1 cr, a nasty cam, methanol and would never live anywhere but the track. Full off race engine type-stuff. How much you can pull on the street and remain reliable is up for debate.

dodger65

what kinda cam are you running in that motor? i'm kinda building the same thing--i thought it was an original idea until i saw yours...

firstfirebird

iTrader: (3)

290/300 advertised grind (.485/.496 lift 238/232 actual at .050").

tank12983

lets say for the sake of argument for the moment that money was no object. what is the most power you could get out of a no turbo no nitrious 3.1l auto engine.

another question how much boost can one of these handle after a rebuild.

grimmcs

iTrader: (1)

Well...do you want to use the stock parts(heads/pistons/intake) or are you looking to make a hybrid? Are you able to pull the engine?
Ive heard of a v6(I forget if its a 2.8 or 3.1) that got just under 200hp, with the iron heads, in a 3rd Gen before. The hybrid route is pretty much uncharted territory for 3rd Gens, so any number would be an estimate based on eather a computer sim or our FWD cousins.

2.8RS

iTrader: (5)

I'm shooting for 200 with the irons right now. That is probably the most that could be had with these heads. If you wanted power you would have to go to aluminum heads. They are much better. Read up on firstfirebird's build. He is going to put some serious power down NA then boosted.

Dale

iTrader: (12)

With a 1500 bux budget. I see 2 options...

1. 3.4 block rebuilt, ported heads, ported intake, mild cam. Custom tune the ecm

2. Turbo and pray!


If your worried about mpg. I would do the basics like you have started. Buy the stuff to tune the ecm and learn that well before doing ANY major modifications. These tunes suck from GM and can benifit MAJORLY from a custom tune.

Just FYI.. I use to have a mild 3.4/5sp. I am getting very compareable MPG out of my 350/5sp that I was getting out of my 3.4. Not going to say it was easy, but I am. But also...The 3.4 had more high end pep and most likely faster on the track due to its excessive weight reduction I did.... over my fully loaded 350 that just likes to .

bl85c

iTrader: (2)

Well, back in the day there was someone pulling ~300hp out of the iron heads. But that took extensive porting and testing on a flowbench just to get them flowing close to what the stock gen II aluminum heads flow. There just isn't enough material on the iron castings to get any decent flow out of porting.

zs&tas

yeah i was going for about 220 with my irons atleast, although ive got some gen II's now thats just changed my whole build DOH !

firstfirebird

iTrader: (3)

If you are going through the trouble of a head swap, why not use the superior 2000 and up Gen3 heads?

Drew

iTrader: (58)

I don't get why this kind of topic STILL comes up. The newest 3.1 Fbody is 16 years old. They didn't get much high performance play when they were new, and they don't get much now. It was never intended to be the high performance screamer that some of you seem to be after. Most of you guys that want to build a V8 killer from a 2.8 or 3.1 fbody are dreamers who never get anywhere and just waste a bunch of time asking questions. Maybe it'd be more realistic if these cars never came with V8's, but they did come with V8's and surprise, surprise, the V8's and the V6's get damn near the same mileage around town where most people do the bulk of their driving. Let's go a step further and look at the cars themselves... V6 = base model... Most V8's had beefy suspensions, upgraded interiors, etc. So even if you throw the engine out of the equation the V8 is a better car all around for performance. If it doesn't make dollars, it doesn't make sense. In other words, you get a better value when you buy the V8 then the V6. Just sell the 6 cyl car, buy a TPI V8 car for the same money, and keep your foot out of the gas.

Ok with all that out of the way... Want to make a 2.8 or 3.1 faster then a stock 305-350? It's a cakewalk. Drop in a universal wet EFI nitrous system, jet for 100-150hp, and go have fun.

zs&tas

hi, dont have a lot of choice in the UK not as many spares just gota grab whats kicking around and cant be choosey or ill never get anything built!!

drew from my experience there is a big difference in millage between v6/8's and the bog standard v8's arnt that powerful. my last bird was pretty much a gta'd v6 so had all the options all the cars were available with all op's, and the v6 is more chuckable responsive handles real well, just if it had a little more power..................... thats all, now go back to the v8 forum
oh yeah and gm raced this engine, so it is a high performance screamer ;-) just gota know what to do with em.

2.8RS

iTrader: (5)

Drew, keep the V8 stuff in the V8 forums. Most of the builds here end up being turbo builds or just a little better than stock builds. I'm not out to kill V8s with my build, I'm building for autox so the lighter V6 is preferable.