Hybrid Build guide/beefing up your v6
11-15-2009, 09:05 PM
#1
Supreme Member
Thread Starter
Hybrid Build guide/beefing up your v6
Hybrid Info
The purpose of this thread is to compile as best I can what all there is to doing a hybrid build on a 2.8, which is also the best way for all you guys like me wanting to increase power output, but don't have the time/money and or tools for a v8 swap. As it has been hard to hunt down some of this info. I will include links to information sites and parts sites.After much research (weeks) into GM 60/6 engines and hybrid builds, and much debating as to whether or not to do a v8 swap I have decided to do a hybrid build on my 2.8 MPFI, it is the most effective way to increase power output for this engine along with aftermarket parts like headers (N/A only, if you plan on going turbo down the road don't get headers) larger cams, and an exhaust system.
Hybrid- (no, not a Prius) is in this case a 2.8l or 3.1l v6 engine with components from its newer better flowing siblings, along with the addition of aluminum heads(I believe the 2.8 and 3.1 engines our cars have both have iron heads): the 3100 and 3400, note that the 3100 engines and 3400 engines are not not one and the same as 3.1 and 3.4 engines respectively(they are the same displacement but different engines within the gm 60/6 family.
In the case of your F-body 2.8 or 3.1 you will be needing your parts from a 3100 or 3400 engine, a 3.4 will not work as it is a DOHC engine whereas ours are single cam 12 valve engines. The 3100 and 3400 top ends will give you the same results with the EXCEPTION being 3100 engines built before 2000, these engines are not as ideal, they are still an improvement but will not flow as much as 3400's and 2000+ 3100's.
So now you know which engines are interchangeable, you can start looking around for top ends, your best bet is going to be a donor engine/car or ebay, or Craigslist. There is also a site that will sell you used/new components or rebuild yours(cheaper to do so):
http://www.wot-tech.com/shop/
Personally unless you have a big wallet I do not recommend them as their stuff gets expensive fast, their performance components would however outperform anything from a donor engine.
This site will have the list of parts that you will need for the swap:
http://www.domesticcrew.com/hybrid.html
These 2 sites provide engine spec data on 60/6 engines, the 2nd is far more thorough:
http://www.a-body.net/forums/showthread.php?p=24
http://60degreev6.com/forumdisplay.php?f=91
This site has re-manufactured engines if you want to start fresh:
http://remanufactured.com/Chevrolet_...er_Engines.htm
For many different parts/components:
http://www.summitracing.com/
http://shop.advanceautoparts.com/web...ervlet/home___
11-15-2009, 10:16 PM
#2
Supreme Member
Thread Starter
Re: Hybrid Build guide/beefing up your v6
Turbochargers/Superchargers/other
The Facts
Many of the more major engine modifications require, other things to be upgraded or changed as well, ie. make sure your engine is strong enough to handle a turbocharger, and anything valvetrain, make sure you get everything you need for it to run smoothly, additionally there will also be ECM tuning to be done with the more major mods. And of course if you get to the point where you have more power than stock v8's from our F-bodies then you're going to have to upgrade your drivetrain to handle the power output, ie. transmission, differential and such, but these are modifications that apply to all of our cars and this is the v6 forum so I won't cover them
Turbochargers: After the swap this is the only MAJOR method to increase power output in your stock v6, without using NOS. That's the good news....The bad news is nobody makes a kit for the 2.8 or 3.1 engines in our cars (It is possible but highly unlikely that there is a kit for the 3100 or 3400 engine, I have not looked into it for a hybrid)
If you go turbocharger, either you have to really know what you're doing and have things fabricated, or shell out for a custom kit.
This site will teach you as much as I know about turbochargers:
http://www.turbobygarrett.com/turbob...o_tech101.html
Superchargers: I strongly advise against superchargers, they do not provide as much boost as turbochargers, and thus have less power potential, additionally they siphon power off your engine to run them, and for engines with as small a displacement as ours, this is simply not worth it, even in the 3800 series v6 engines that have superchargers its gain is not worth it over what a turbocharger would yield, additionally there is not a kit made for these either as far as i know.
Exhaust/headers: This is the next step I would recommend whether you've built a hybrid or not, just keep in mind if you plan on going turbo that headers are a wasted investment. There is unfortunately no "true" dual exhaust kits are made, meaning that each header has its own pipe all the way back to the mufflers, with 2 catalytic converters, it is however not all that difficult to compile the parts to build yourself one. If you've built a hybrid keep and kept stock exhaust manifold, keep in mind when getting an exhaust system that you now have the exhaust manifold from a 3400 engine.
Air Intake: I can't help but get angry every time someone with a TPI Camaro asks about a CAI (cold air intake) and someone points them towards a cone filter setup(this is the person I am mad at for greatly misguiding someone) the stock air intake is cold air by default as it is mounted in front of the radiator, these CAI intakes you see would actually decrease performance both in terms of flow and warmer air, in addition to costing you money to downgrade your vehicle....That being said, there are actually 2 ways that you can upgrade your stock air intake(this is for the dual snorkel version found on TPI camaros, I don't know about other stock setups, such as those on firebirds or TBI engines) 1: You can pull up the airbox and cut off the bottom half of it on each side, you want to cut right below the part where its solid, so you're pretty much cutting off from the 4 slots on each side down, this will give your filters access to a higher volume of air. 2: You can build yourself a custom ram air setup if you don't have fog lights, or remove them if you do, you simple cut the airbox as before, and below where it was you will see the top of your air dam which you have to cut two holes in, directly below where the holes that hold the air filters in your airbox are, after that you simple find a type of piping, or ducting that will fit up right (8" AC ducting is supposed to work well) and run it on each side from the fog light tube right up to the airbox and find a way to secure it at each end, I imagine a rubber band, tie wraps, duct tape, a hose clamp or something like that would work. (Just be creative) And for a very low cost you have the best possible intake setup on your TPI Camaro. And for those of you with an older v6 and a carb an open element filter and a cowl induction hood is your best bet. Here is an on site link with more detailed instructions for building a ram air setup on TPI, and a 2nd one for TBI(somewhere a moderator is smiling at my usage of the search function...)
Valvetrain: For 2.8 engines and 3.1 engines you have the option of upgrading your rockers to 1.6 from stock 1.5 ratio, which also requires new pushrods and valve springs I believe. If you've done a hybrid build you already have 1.6 rockers, which is the maximum lift you can get from your rockers to the best of my knowledge. You can also upgrade your camshaft for better lift, which along with the exhaust system upgrade is your best bet short of putting in a turbocharger. You can also port/polish your heads. or if you have the money send them to the company running this site, which will rebuild your intake manifolds and cylinder heads for even more flow, it doesn't come cheap though:
http://www.wot-tech.com/shop/
Fuel System: Where there is more airflow there is more gas required, so if you start modding your v6, you're eventually going to need to upgrade your fuel system depending on how far you go, this will probably mean higher capacity injectors and a higher flowing fuel pump, and the means to handle it, ie. ECM tune.
Weight and drivetrain weight reduction: I won't get into the details(Once again, v6 forum) of these but suffice it to say that the reduction of drivetrain weight especially will net a lot of performance gain for our less torquey v6 engines which I believe also rev higher than our v8 siblings, meaning that any reduction in weight the engine has to spin will be good.
The Facts
Many of the more major engine modifications require, other things to be upgraded or changed as well, ie. make sure your engine is strong enough to handle a turbocharger, and anything valvetrain, make sure you get everything you need for it to run smoothly, additionally there will also be ECM tuning to be done with the more major mods. And of course if you get to the point where you have more power than stock v8's from our F-bodies then you're going to have to upgrade your drivetrain to handle the power output, ie. transmission, differential and such, but these are modifications that apply to all of our cars and this is the v6 forum so I won't cover them
Turbochargers: After the swap this is the only MAJOR method to increase power output in your stock v6, without using NOS. That's the good news....The bad news is nobody makes a kit for the 2.8 or 3.1 engines in our cars (It is possible but highly unlikely that there is a kit for the 3100 or 3400 engine, I have not looked into it for a hybrid)
If you go turbocharger, either you have to really know what you're doing and have things fabricated, or shell out for a custom kit.
This site will teach you as much as I know about turbochargers:
http://www.turbobygarrett.com/turbob...o_tech101.html
Superchargers: I strongly advise against superchargers, they do not provide as much boost as turbochargers, and thus have less power potential, additionally they siphon power off your engine to run them, and for engines with as small a displacement as ours, this is simply not worth it, even in the 3800 series v6 engines that have superchargers its gain is not worth it over what a turbocharger would yield, additionally there is not a kit made for these either as far as i know.
Exhaust/headers: This is the next step I would recommend whether you've built a hybrid or not, just keep in mind if you plan on going turbo that headers are a wasted investment. There is unfortunately no "true" dual exhaust kits are made, meaning that each header has its own pipe all the way back to the mufflers, with 2 catalytic converters, it is however not all that difficult to compile the parts to build yourself one. If you've built a hybrid keep and kept stock exhaust manifold, keep in mind when getting an exhaust system that you now have the exhaust manifold from a 3400 engine.
Air Intake: I can't help but get angry every time someone with a TPI Camaro asks about a CAI (cold air intake) and someone points them towards a cone filter setup(this is the person I am mad at for greatly misguiding someone) the stock air intake is cold air by default as it is mounted in front of the radiator, these CAI intakes you see would actually decrease performance both in terms of flow and warmer air, in addition to costing you money to downgrade your vehicle....That being said, there are actually 2 ways that you can upgrade your stock air intake(this is for the dual snorkel version found on TPI camaros, I don't know about other stock setups, such as those on firebirds or TBI engines) 1: You can pull up the airbox and cut off the bottom half of it on each side, you want to cut right below the part where its solid, so you're pretty much cutting off from the 4 slots on each side down, this will give your filters access to a higher volume of air. 2: You can build yourself a custom ram air setup if you don't have fog lights, or remove them if you do, you simple cut the airbox as before, and below where it was you will see the top of your air dam which you have to cut two holes in, directly below where the holes that hold the air filters in your airbox are, after that you simple find a type of piping, or ducting that will fit up right (8" AC ducting is supposed to work well) and run it on each side from the fog light tube right up to the airbox and find a way to secure it at each end, I imagine a rubber band, tie wraps, duct tape, a hose clamp or something like that would work. (Just be creative) And for a very low cost you have the best possible intake setup on your TPI Camaro. And for those of you with an older v6 and a carb an open element filter and a cowl induction hood is your best bet. Here is an on site link with more detailed instructions for building a ram air setup on TPI, and a 2nd one for TBI(somewhere a moderator is smiling at my usage of the search function...)
Valvetrain: For 2.8 engines and 3.1 engines you have the option of upgrading your rockers to 1.6 from stock 1.5 ratio, which also requires new pushrods and valve springs I believe. If you've done a hybrid build you already have 1.6 rockers, which is the maximum lift you can get from your rockers to the best of my knowledge. You can also upgrade your camshaft for better lift, which along with the exhaust system upgrade is your best bet short of putting in a turbocharger. You can also port/polish your heads. or if you have the money send them to the company running this site, which will rebuild your intake manifolds and cylinder heads for even more flow, it doesn't come cheap though:
http://www.wot-tech.com/shop/
Fuel System: Where there is more airflow there is more gas required, so if you start modding your v6, you're eventually going to need to upgrade your fuel system depending on how far you go, this will probably mean higher capacity injectors and a higher flowing fuel pump, and the means to handle it, ie. ECM tune.
Weight and drivetrain weight reduction: I won't get into the details(Once again, v6 forum) of these but suffice it to say that the reduction of drivetrain weight especially will net a lot of performance gain for our less torquey v6 engines which I believe also rev higher than our v8 siblings, meaning that any reduction in weight the engine has to spin will be good.
11-15-2009, 10:22 PM
#3
Supreme Member
Thread Starter
Re: Hybrid Build guide/beefing up your v6
Turbochargers/Superchargers/other
The Facts
Many of the more major engine modifications require, other things to be upgraded or changed as well, ie. make sure your engine is strong enough to handle a turbocharger, and anything valvetrain, make sure you get everything you need for it to run smoothly, additionally there will also be ECM tuning to be done with the more major mods. And of course if you get to the point where you have more power than stock v8's from our F-bodies then you're going to have to upgrade your drivetrain to handle the power output, ie. transmission, differential and such, but these are modifications that apply to all of our cars and this is the v6 forum so I won't cover them
Turbochargers: After the swap this is the only MAJOR method to increase power output in your stock v6, without using NOS. That's the good news....The bad news is nobody makes a kit for the 2.8 or 3.1 engines in our cars (It is possible but highly unlikely that there is a kit for the 3100 or 3400 engine, I have not looked into it for a hybrid)
If you go turbocharger, either you have to really know what you're doing and have things fabricated, or shell out for a custom kit.
This site will teach you as much as I know about turbochargers:
http://www.turbobygarrett.com/turbob...o_tech101.html
Superchargers: I strongly advise against superchargers, they do not provide as much boost as turbochargers, and thus have less power potential, additionally they siphon power off your engine to run them, and for engines with as small a displacement as ours, this is simply not worth it, even in the 3800 series v6 engines that have superchargers its gain is not worth it over what a turbocharger would yield, additionally there is not a kit made for these either as far as i know.
Exhaust/headers: This is the next step I would recommend whether you've built a hybrid or not, just keep in mind if you plan on going turbo that headers are a wasted investment. There is unfortunately no "true" dual exhaust kits are made, meaning that each header has its own pipe all the way back to the mufflers, with 2 catalytic converters, it is however not all that difficult to compile the parts to build yourself one. If you've built a hybrid keep and kept stock exhaust manifold, keep in mind when getting an exhaust system that you now have the exhaust manifold from a 3400 engine.
Air Intake: I can't help but get angry every time someone with a TPI Camaro asks about a CAI (cold air intake) and someone points them towards a cone filter setup(this is the person I am mad at for greatly misguiding someone) the stock air intake is cold air by default as it is mounted in front of the radiator, these CAI intakes you see would actually decrease performance both in terms of flow and warmer air, in addition to costing you money to downgrade your vehicle....That being said, there are actually 2 ways that you can upgrade your stock air intake(this is for the dual snorkel version found on TPI camaros, I don't know about other stock setups, such as those on firebirds or TBI engines) 1: You can pull up the airbox and cut off the bottom half of it on each side, you want to cut right below the part where its solid, so you're pretty much cutting off from the 4 slots on each side down, this will give your filters access to a higher volume of air. 2: You can build yourself a custom ram air setup if you don't have fog lights, or remove them if you do, you simple cut the airbox as before, and below where it was you will see the top of your air dam which you have to cut two holes in, directly below where the holes that hold the air filters in your airbox are, after that you simple find a type of piping, or ducting that will fit up right (8" AC ducting is supposed to work well) and run it on each side from the fog light tube right up to the airbox and find a way to secure it at each end, I imagine a rubber band, tie wraps, duct tape, a hose clamp or something like that would work. (Just be creative) And for a very low cost you have the best possible intake setup on your TPI Camaro. And for those of you with an older v6 and a carb an open element filter and a cowl induction hood is your best bet. Here is an on site link with more detailed instructions for building a ram air setup on TPI, and a 2nd one for TBI(somewhere a moderator is smiling at my usage of the search function...)
Valvetrain: For 2.8 engines and 3.1 engines you have the option of upgrading your rockers to 1.6 from stock 1.5 ratio, which also requires new pushrods and valve springs I believe. If you've done a hybrid build you already have 1.6 rockers, which is the maximum lift you can get from your rockers to the best of my knowledge. You can also upgrade your camshaft for better lift, which along with the exhaust system upgrade is your best bet short of putting in a turbocharger. You can also port/polish your heads. or if you have the money send them to the company running this site, which will rebuild your intake manifolds and cylinder heads for even more flow, it doesn't come cheap though:
http://www.wot-tech.com/shop/
Fuel System: Where there is more airflow there is more gas required, so if you start modding your v6, you're eventually going to need to upgrade your fuel system depending on how far you go, this will probably mean higher capacity injectors and a higher flowing fuel pump, and the means to handle it, ie. ECM tune.
Weight and drivetrain weight reduction: I won't get into the details(Once again, v6 forum) of these but suffice it to say that the reduction of drivetrain weight especially will net a lot of performance gain for our less torquey v6 engines which I believe also rev higher than our v8 siblings, meaning that any reduction in weight the engine has to spin will be good.
The Facts
Many of the more major engine modifications require, other things to be upgraded or changed as well, ie. make sure your engine is strong enough to handle a turbocharger, and anything valvetrain, make sure you get everything you need for it to run smoothly, additionally there will also be ECM tuning to be done with the more major mods. And of course if you get to the point where you have more power than stock v8's from our F-bodies then you're going to have to upgrade your drivetrain to handle the power output, ie. transmission, differential and such, but these are modifications that apply to all of our cars and this is the v6 forum so I won't cover them
Turbochargers: After the swap this is the only MAJOR method to increase power output in your stock v6, without using NOS. That's the good news....The bad news is nobody makes a kit for the 2.8 or 3.1 engines in our cars (It is possible but highly unlikely that there is a kit for the 3100 or 3400 engine, I have not looked into it for a hybrid)
If you go turbocharger, either you have to really know what you're doing and have things fabricated, or shell out for a custom kit.
This site will teach you as much as I know about turbochargers:
http://www.turbobygarrett.com/turbob...o_tech101.html
Superchargers: I strongly advise against superchargers, they do not provide as much boost as turbochargers, and thus have less power potential, additionally they siphon power off your engine to run them, and for engines with as small a displacement as ours, this is simply not worth it, even in the 3800 series v6 engines that have superchargers its gain is not worth it over what a turbocharger would yield, additionally there is not a kit made for these either as far as i know.
Exhaust/headers: This is the next step I would recommend whether you've built a hybrid or not, just keep in mind if you plan on going turbo that headers are a wasted investment. There is unfortunately no "true" dual exhaust kits are made, meaning that each header has its own pipe all the way back to the mufflers, with 2 catalytic converters, it is however not all that difficult to compile the parts to build yourself one. If you've built a hybrid keep and kept stock exhaust manifold, keep in mind when getting an exhaust system that you now have the exhaust manifold from a 3400 engine.
Air Intake: I can't help but get angry every time someone with a TPI Camaro asks about a CAI (cold air intake) and someone points them towards a cone filter setup(this is the person I am mad at for greatly misguiding someone) the stock air intake is cold air by default as it is mounted in front of the radiator, these CAI intakes you see would actually decrease performance both in terms of flow and warmer air, in addition to costing you money to downgrade your vehicle....That being said, there are actually 2 ways that you can upgrade your stock air intake(this is for the dual snorkel version found on TPI camaros, I don't know about other stock setups, such as those on firebirds or TBI engines) 1: You can pull up the airbox and cut off the bottom half of it on each side, you want to cut right below the part where its solid, so you're pretty much cutting off from the 4 slots on each side down, this will give your filters access to a higher volume of air. 2: You can build yourself a custom ram air setup if you don't have fog lights, or remove them if you do, you simple cut the airbox as before, and below where it was you will see the top of your air dam which you have to cut two holes in, directly below where the holes that hold the air filters in your airbox are, after that you simple find a type of piping, or ducting that will fit up right (8" AC ducting is supposed to work well) and run it on each side from the fog light tube right up to the airbox and find a way to secure it at each end, I imagine a rubber band, tie wraps, duct tape, a hose clamp or something like that would work. (Just be creative) And for a very low cost you have the best possible intake setup on your TPI Camaro. And for those of you with an older v6 and a carb an open element filter and a cowl induction hood is your best bet. Here is an on site link with more detailed instructions for building a ram air setup on TPI, and a 2nd one for TBI(somewhere a moderator is smiling at my usage of the search function...)
Valvetrain: For 2.8 engines and 3.1 engines you have the option of upgrading your rockers to 1.6 from stock 1.5 ratio, which also requires new pushrods and valve springs I believe. If you've done a hybrid build you already have 1.6 rockers, which is the maximum lift you can get from your rockers to the best of my knowledge. You can also upgrade your camshaft for better lift, which along with the exhaust system upgrade is your best bet short of putting in a turbocharger. You can also port/polish your heads. or if you have the money send them to the company running this site, which will rebuild your intake manifolds and cylinder heads for even more flow, it doesn't come cheap though:
http://www.wot-tech.com/shop/
Fuel System: Where there is more airflow there is more gas required, so if you start modding your v6, you're eventually going to need to upgrade your fuel system depending on how far you go, this will probably mean higher capacity injectors and a higher flowing fuel pump, and the means to handle it, ie. ECM tune.
Weight and drivetrain weight reduction: I won't get into the details(Once again, v6 forum) of these but suffice it to say that the reduction of drivetrain weight especially will net a lot of performance gain for our less torquey v6 engines which I believe also rev higher than our v8 siblings, meaning that any reduction in weight the engine has to spin will be good.
11-15-2009, 11:09 PM
#4
Supreme Member
Thread Starter
Re: Hybrid Build guide/beefing up your v6
Hybrid (the project)
I accidentally double posted above if a moderator can fix that for me....and sticky this thread as well if they find it as helpful as I intend it to be....
Anyways, down to the nuts and bolts of my teardown, and rebuild with 3400 top end, I have found a used one from two different source cars, one has the cylinder heads and the other has the rest of the major stuff: lower, mid and upper intake manifold with throttle body, and fuel rail. This is all the major things you will need, and where the bulk of your cost is going to go, and the reason for the swap. I haven't yet bought the parts I found( I just found them) but as I am still in the tear down phase this doesn't matter yet, because that's where I am starting.
The tear-down
Note that it was originally my intention to replace the leaking head gaskets, not rebuild as a hybrid, so my instructions are as such. It might be slightly easier to remove things in a somewhat different or more destructive(easier and better feeling) manner. Just don't break anything you need.
Firstly I suggest you get a Haynes or Chilton book, you can get one for ~$25 from advanced auto. It says to mark wires/hoses and such as you pull the engine apart, DO SO. Even the obvious ones, because they may be obvious at first, until you have 5 more that look just like it....This is my first tear down and I'm hoping to teach others from my mistakes... I also advise that if you take a bolt off of something or a bracket, always put a bolt back into whatever you remove where possible, or the bracket it came off of.
I have a Haynes book that I'm going off of and it isn't entirely accurate or helpful at times, so I will add my own 2 cents. First off it sends you from one page to another, to another frequently, and its easy to lose track of just what exactly is next, or does or doesn't have to be removed.(You should start where it gives instructions for intake manifold removal). I'm going to give the rundown of the bigger stuff, for more minute details use your manual.
You're going to start where the process of the engine does: the air box, remove that, and the hose going to the throttle body, after that the throttle body.
Next is the upper intake manifold/plenum after some hoses and wires(consult manual), after that the fuel rail and injectors, now here is where I can start adding my own advice from experience, stuff your book won't tell you.... The part where it mentions the cold start valve, ignore that, disconnect the nut, with a little metal tube coming out of it, not first, but after you've removed, the fuel lines from the block(also it will be easier to work if you remove the steel part from the intermittent rubber hose in your engine bay, and the injector harness(remove this completely from the engine) now you can get to that white nut with the tube going to the valve much easier(the injector harness is right up against it), it says to remove the whole cold start valve, ignore that part too, just disconnect the nut and leave it hanging there for now.
Somewhere around now it mentions taking out the distributor, don't bother, just take off the cap for now, disconnect the spark plug wires and leave them hanging for the moment. More misc. hoses and what not before it tells you to take the middle intake manifold off, once you do that comes more advice from experience...
It says to take off the valve covers, don't even bother trying, take off the starter, and alternator at this point, it will make much easier, after that take off the EGR pipe/tube, earlier you disconnected part of it from your throttle body, a thin walled ribbed tube, leave that connected at the other end, and disconnect the big thick heavy part of it from the exhaust manifold and pull the whole thing, this may cause some agitation if the bolts are as rusted as mine were.... it is at this point still difficult but possible to remove your valve covers, don't, remove the vacuum hose assembly from them though, now that your EGR is removed, take off the ignition coil, and then the bracket that its sitting on.
Now its time for the valve covers to come off, it should be pretty easy at this point to get to them, after that you have to get back to the distributor and that annoying little cold start valve... the distributor has a bracket/plate holding it down by one bolt, it is on the left side, way down in there at the base of the thing, it is a PITA getting to that bolt, if you're like me and have limited tools, you'll have to use a 15mm wrench, from the right side of the engine while standing on the left(isn't this fun!?) and just kind of have to guide the wrench to it and finagle with it for a while muttering profanity along the way. Now for the cold start valve, which you can see now, you don't unplug the white thing from the black piece that looks like the top of a fuel injector, its deceptive...theres a plate holding fuel injector type looking thing onto the manifold, it has one bolt, not the two you would expect it to have.
For the lower intake manifold you have another problem if your tools are limited, the nuts holding on that pipe you have to remove are huge, larger than any of my open ended wrenches, so if you weren't able to remove your starter bracket(It has the biggest torx nut I've ever seen....) due to lack of tools...again you're going to have to bend the metal pipe outward to clear the bracket, after cutting or removing the hose line sections on each side. At this point you're ready to remove your lower intake manifold and as far along as I am at the moment.
Will post updates with progress, Also I didn't start taking pictures till post throttle body and upper intake/plenum removal, but I will link them from that part forward.
Anyways, down to the nuts and bolts of my teardown, and rebuild with 3400 top end, I have found a used one from two different source cars, one has the cylinder heads and the other has the rest of the major stuff: lower, mid and upper intake manifold with throttle body, and fuel rail. This is all the major things you will need, and where the bulk of your cost is going to go, and the reason for the swap. I haven't yet bought the parts I found( I just found them) but as I am still in the tear down phase this doesn't matter yet, because that's where I am starting.
The tear-down
Note that it was originally my intention to replace the leaking head gaskets, not rebuild as a hybrid, so my instructions are as such. It might be slightly easier to remove things in a somewhat different or more destructive(easier and better feeling) manner. Just don't break anything you need.
Firstly I suggest you get a Haynes or Chilton book, you can get one for ~$25 from advanced auto. It says to mark wires/hoses and such as you pull the engine apart, DO SO. Even the obvious ones, because they may be obvious at first, until you have 5 more that look just like it....This is my first tear down and I'm hoping to teach others from my mistakes... I also advise that if you take a bolt off of something or a bracket, always put a bolt back into whatever you remove where possible, or the bracket it came off of.
I have a Haynes book that I'm going off of and it isn't entirely accurate or helpful at times, so I will add my own 2 cents. First off it sends you from one page to another, to another frequently, and its easy to lose track of just what exactly is next, or does or doesn't have to be removed.(You should start where it gives instructions for intake manifold removal). I'm going to give the rundown of the bigger stuff, for more minute details use your manual.
You're going to start where the process of the engine does: the air box, remove that, and the hose going to the throttle body, after that the throttle body.
Next is the upper intake manifold/plenum after some hoses and wires(consult manual), after that the fuel rail and injectors, now here is where I can start adding my own advice from experience, stuff your book won't tell you.... The part where it mentions the cold start valve, ignore that, disconnect the nut, with a little metal tube coming out of it, not first, but after you've removed, the fuel lines from the block(also it will be easier to work if you remove the steel part from the intermittent rubber hose in your engine bay, and the injector harness(remove this completely from the engine) now you can get to that white nut with the tube going to the valve much easier(the injector harness is right up against it), it says to remove the whole cold start valve, ignore that part too, just disconnect the nut and leave it hanging there for now.
Somewhere around now it mentions taking out the distributor, don't bother, just take off the cap for now, disconnect the spark plug wires and leave them hanging for the moment. More misc. hoses and what not before it tells you to take the middle intake manifold off, once you do that comes more advice from experience...
It says to take off the valve covers, don't even bother trying, take off the starter, and alternator at this point, it will make much easier, after that take off the EGR pipe/tube, earlier you disconnected part of it from your throttle body, a thin walled ribbed tube, leave that connected at the other end, and disconnect the big thick heavy part of it from the exhaust manifold and pull the whole thing, this may cause some agitation if the bolts are as rusted as mine were.... it is at this point still difficult but possible to remove your valve covers, don't, remove the vacuum hose assembly from them though, now that your EGR is removed, take off the ignition coil, and then the bracket that its sitting on.
Now its time for the valve covers to come off, it should be pretty easy at this point to get to them, after that you have to get back to the distributor and that annoying little cold start valve... the distributor has a bracket/plate holding it down by one bolt, it is on the left side, way down in there at the base of the thing, it is a PITA getting to that bolt, if you're like me and have limited tools, you'll have to use a 15mm wrench, from the right side of the engine while standing on the left(isn't this fun!?) and just kind of have to guide the wrench to it and finagle with it for a while muttering profanity along the way. Now for the cold start valve, which you can see now, you don't unplug the white thing from the black piece that looks like the top of a fuel injector, its deceptive...theres a plate holding fuel injector type looking thing onto the manifold, it has one bolt, not the two you would expect it to have.
For the lower intake manifold you have another problem if your tools are limited, the nuts holding on that pipe you have to remove are huge, larger than any of my open ended wrenches, so if you weren't able to remove your starter bracket(It has the biggest torx nut I've ever seen....) due to lack of tools...again you're going to have to bend the metal pipe outward to clear the bracket, after cutting or removing the hose line sections on each side. At this point you're ready to remove your lower intake manifold and as far along as I am at the moment.
Will post updates with progress, Also I didn't start taking pictures till post throttle body and upper intake/plenum removal, but I will link them from that part forward.
11-16-2009, 07:51 AM
#5
Re: Hybrid Build guide/beefing up your v6
Good to see the swap covered as you go.
The first couple posts were good for noobs to get a general overview, but I feel was missing a little info. You didn't address the DIS issue, and I was hoping you would, as I've never seen that solved and explained in detail here.
The first couple posts were good for noobs to get a general overview, but I feel was missing a little info. You didn't address the DIS issue, and I was hoping you would, as I've never seen that solved and explained in detail here.
11-16-2009, 01:15 PM
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Re: Hybrid Build guide/beefing up your v6
Turbochargers: After the swap this is the only MAJOR method to increase power output in your stock v6, without using NOS. That's the good news....The bad news is nobody makes a kit for the 2.8 or 3.1 engines in our cars (It is possible but highly unlikely that there is a kit for the 3100 or 3400 engine, I have not looked into it for a hybrid)
11-16-2009, 03:29 PM
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11-16-2009, 08:29 PM
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Re: Hybrid Build guide/beefing up your v6
There's one on wot-tech's site, just look for it. Then there's a few 'universal' things out there that you need to do a little fabing with.
Couple tips and points to make. First, please omit the word 'NOS' from the 2nd post. It's nitrous oxide.
The DOHC 3400 isn't referred to as a 3.4, the 3.4 is an iron head rwd gen 1 motor. So are the 2.8 and 3.1 rwd motors. Now here's where it starts to get confusing, LOL. 2.8 and 3.1 can also reffer to alum head fwd gen 2 motors. No 3.4 alum head gen 2 motors were produced at this point. Now the DOHC 3400 motor is generally only reffered to as the DOHC motor because it was only produced in one displacement. 3100, 3400 (and one variation of the 3500) reffers to non-vvt fwd alum head gen 3 motors produced after roughly '94. Roughly because there were still gen 2 motors being distributed around this time. No 2.8 (or 2800) gen 3 motor was ever produced. Gen 4 motors are all vvt 3500 & 3900 motors, although I'm not certain the community has adopted the marker of 'gen 4' quite yet. I'm not certain where the new camaro's 3600 DOHC motor fits into this categorization yet either, little info exists on it so far. Confused?
As far as supercharging goes I think it's a very good option for those that want immediate satisfaction when they romp on the gas. You won't develop as much pressure with a supercharger as you would with a turbo but it comes on immediately. Fageol produced a kit for some time but have since gone out of buisness. From time to time a couple pop up on the boards. I also think upgrading the exhaust manifolds to headers is just short of a neccecity when building a hybrid. It will never breathe and give you the top end performace you want until you get rid of them.
When you start assembing you'll find you need to grind off a portion of the timing cover to get the fwd manifold to fit. Easy enough with a die grinder and a carbide bit. You need to research the proper pistons & head gaskets to use as well because you can end up with much more compression than is useable with pump gas. The stock pistons won't work with alum heads unless you plan on alchol, pistons from a gen2 2.8 work well.
Ethier a flat tappet cam or roller cam can be used in a gen 1 block contrary to what many will claim. There is a catch with flat tappet cams & alum heads though, and this is something that's still up for debate but the oil drainback holes drilled into alum heads don't drain back to cyls #2 & 5 without plugging & redrilling. There's a pic at the bottom. This might lead to tappet failure down the road, which isn't unheard of on rwd blocks. Take it for what you will. Use pushrods from a gen 2 motor with flat tappet cams. If you decide on a roller cam you'll need to trim fwd antirotation bars to mount flush on the block & weld nuts to the block, use gen 3 pushrods and roller rockers (standard on all 2000+ heads). There's a catch with roller lifters as well since you're limited to about .54" lift on rwd blocks (with 1.5 rockers) without exposing the oil chamfer.
When you route the heater hoses plug off the tube coming from the side of the thermostat housing with a 1" freeze plug and use the return on the waterpump. Otherwise no circulation. If you're looking for lower temp thermostats duralast has 180* thermostats.
Make sure you have the right gasket set for the combination you're building. Early small port 3100/3400 manifold gaskets won't work with 2000+ manifolds. Most gaskets for fwd motors will work for your hybrid but waterpump & oil pan gaskets won't. You'll also need to use gen 2 3.1 valveguide gaskets with LS1, LS9 or comp beehive springs. And fwd exhaust gaskets suck with headers, thick paper or better yet semi-graphite/metal composite gaskets work best. Make sure you torque the lower manifold in proper sequence or it WILL leak. I can't tell you how many 3x00 motors I've seen leaking because some jerkoff just cranked it down with their air ratchet and called it good. PM me for torque specs & diagrams.
Couple tips and points to make. First, please omit the word 'NOS' from the 2nd post. It's nitrous oxide.
The DOHC 3400 isn't referred to as a 3.4, the 3.4 is an iron head rwd gen 1 motor. So are the 2.8 and 3.1 rwd motors. Now here's where it starts to get confusing, LOL. 2.8 and 3.1 can also reffer to alum head fwd gen 2 motors. No 3.4 alum head gen 2 motors were produced at this point. Now the DOHC 3400 motor is generally only reffered to as the DOHC motor because it was only produced in one displacement. 3100, 3400 (and one variation of the 3500) reffers to non-vvt fwd alum head gen 3 motors produced after roughly '94. Roughly because there were still gen 2 motors being distributed around this time. No 2.8 (or 2800) gen 3 motor was ever produced. Gen 4 motors are all vvt 3500 & 3900 motors, although I'm not certain the community has adopted the marker of 'gen 4' quite yet. I'm not certain where the new camaro's 3600 DOHC motor fits into this categorization yet either, little info exists on it so far. Confused?
As far as supercharging goes I think it's a very good option for those that want immediate satisfaction when they romp on the gas. You won't develop as much pressure with a supercharger as you would with a turbo but it comes on immediately. Fageol produced a kit for some time but have since gone out of buisness. From time to time a couple pop up on the boards. I also think upgrading the exhaust manifolds to headers is just short of a neccecity when building a hybrid. It will never breathe and give you the top end performace you want until you get rid of them.
When you start assembing you'll find you need to grind off a portion of the timing cover to get the fwd manifold to fit. Easy enough with a die grinder and a carbide bit. You need to research the proper pistons & head gaskets to use as well because you can end up with much more compression than is useable with pump gas. The stock pistons won't work with alum heads unless you plan on alchol, pistons from a gen2 2.8 work well.
Ethier a flat tappet cam or roller cam can be used in a gen 1 block contrary to what many will claim. There is a catch with flat tappet cams & alum heads though, and this is something that's still up for debate but the oil drainback holes drilled into alum heads don't drain back to cyls #2 & 5 without plugging & redrilling. There's a pic at the bottom. This might lead to tappet failure down the road, which isn't unheard of on rwd blocks. Take it for what you will. Use pushrods from a gen 2 motor with flat tappet cams. If you decide on a roller cam you'll need to trim fwd antirotation bars to mount flush on the block & weld nuts to the block, use gen 3 pushrods and roller rockers (standard on all 2000+ heads). There's a catch with roller lifters as well since you're limited to about .54" lift on rwd blocks (with 1.5 rockers) without exposing the oil chamfer.
When you route the heater hoses plug off the tube coming from the side of the thermostat housing with a 1" freeze plug and use the return on the waterpump. Otherwise no circulation. If you're looking for lower temp thermostats duralast has 180* thermostats.
Make sure you have the right gasket set for the combination you're building. Early small port 3100/3400 manifold gaskets won't work with 2000+ manifolds. Most gaskets for fwd motors will work for your hybrid but waterpump & oil pan gaskets won't. You'll also need to use gen 2 3.1 valveguide gaskets with LS1, LS9 or comp beehive springs. And fwd exhaust gaskets suck with headers, thick paper or better yet semi-graphite/metal composite gaskets work best. Make sure you torque the lower manifold in proper sequence or it WILL leak. I can't tell you how many 3x00 motors I've seen leaking because some jerkoff just cranked it down with their air ratchet and called it good. PM me for torque specs & diagrams.
Last edited by bl85c; 11-16-2009 at 09:26 PM.
11-16-2009, 11:11 PM
#9
Re: Hybrid Build guide/beefing up your v6
*sigh*
Agreed
Please for the love of god NEVER refer to the DOHC as a "3400", even "DOHC 3400" is not correct. It IS and always will be a "3.4". To get technical, the industry even refers to the 3400 as a "3.4", just like they refer to the "3100" as a 3.1 litre. But to get back to the DOHC, even the cover on the engine says "3.4" not not 3400.
So much confusion, 10 PSIG from a supercharger is the same as 10 PSIG from a turbo. Both have the potential to make lots or little intake pressure. The main difference is that (centrifigal) superchargers will generally have a more linear boost curve in relation to engine RPM than turbochargers, because they are connected mechanicaly to the engine to control impeller speed. Turbos don't have the direct mechanical link and can be made to spool up more sooner, but then controlled to a limited impeller (and exducer) speed to keep from over reving the impeller.
I guess I should tell a friend of mine running 12 or so :1 SCR in his 3400 to stop running pump gas through it then.....
The only proper way to get proper length pushrods is to get custom length pushrods, anything else will set up poor rocker geometry. Not saying the engine won't run, there will just be less than optimal valvetrain geomtry using off the shelf "stock" pushrods.
I can assure you, that flat tappet cams survive very well when using the aluminium heads. I had '95 3100 heads on my gen1 2.8 block for over 20000 Kms, and when I pulled the cam out it looked still new.
Also the genII engines are all flat tappet and have the exact same drain back as the genIII heads.
People making mountians is all this is.
I still would not run a roller cam in a genI block.
I would actually suggest "T'ing" off the heater core line that connects to the water pump. This will allow some coolant to get to the underside of the thermostat, like it is on OEM genIII applications. In the OEM application there is a "coolant tree" that attaches to the output of the water pump, that splits the flow between the heater core and this connection at the intake.
I used stock, to be more specific used stock genIII exhaust gaskets with my home made headers, and they worked better than any paper or graphite gasket I have used on any application.
There was no "early small port 3400".
The DOHC 3400 isn't referred to as a 3.4, the 3.4 is an iron head rwd gen 1 motor. So are the 2.8 and 3.1 rwd motors. Now here's where it starts to get confusing, LOL. 2.8 and 3.1 can also reffer to alum head fwd gen 2 motors. No 3.4 alum head gen 2 motors were produced at this point. Now the DOHC 3400 motor is generally only reffered to as the DOHC motor because it was only produced in one displacement. 3100, 3400 (and one variation of the 3500) reffers to non-vvt fwd alum head gen 3 motors produced after roughly '94. Roughly because there were still gen 2 motors being distributed around this time. No 2.8 (or 2800) gen 3 motor was ever produced. Gen 4 motors are all vvt 3500 & 3900 motors, although I'm not certain the community has adopted the marker of 'gen 4' quite yet. I'm not certain where the new camaro's 3600 DOHC motor fits into this categorization yet either, little info exists on it so far. Confused?
As far as supercharging goes I think it's a very good option for those that want immediate satisfaction when they romp on the gas. You won't develop as much pressure with a supercharger as you would with a turbo but it comes on immediately. Fageol produced a kit for some time but have since gone out of buisness. From time to time a couple pop up on the boards. I also think upgrading the exhaust manifolds to headers is just short of a neccecity when building a hybrid. It will never breathe and give you the top end performace you want until you get rid of them.
When you start assembing you'll find you need to grind off a portion of the timing cover to get the fwd manifold to fit. Easy enough with a die grinder and a carbide bit. You need to research the proper pistons & head gaskets to use as well because you can end up with much more compression than is useable with pump gas. The stock pistons won't work with alum heads unless you plan on alchol, pistons from a gen2 2.8 work well.
Ethier a flat tappet cam or roller cam can be used in a gen 1 block contrary to what many will claim. There is a catch with flat tappet cams & alum heads though, and this is something that's still up for debate but the oil drainback holes drilled into alum heads don't drain back to cyls #2 & 5 without plugging & redrilling. There's a pic at the bottom. This might lead to tappet failure down the road, which isn't unheard of on rwd blocks. Take it for what you will. Use pushrods from a gen 2 motor with flat tappet cams. If you decide on a roller cam you'll need to trim fwd antirotation bars to mount flush on the block & weld nuts to the block, use gen 3 pushrods and roller rockers (standard on all 2000+ heads). There's a catch with roller lifters as well since you're limited to about .54" lift on rwd blocks (with 1.5 rockers) without exposing the oil chamfer.
I can assure you, that flat tappet cams survive very well when using the aluminium heads. I had '95 3100 heads on my gen1 2.8 block for over 20000 Kms, and when I pulled the cam out it looked still new.
Also the genII engines are all flat tappet and have the exact same drain back as the genIII heads.
People making mountians is all this is.
I still would not run a roller cam in a genI block.
When you route the heater hoses plug off the tube coming from the side of the thermostat housing with a 1" freeze plug and use the return on the waterpump. Otherwise no circulation. If you're looking for lower temp thermostats duralast has 180* thermostats.
Make sure you have the right gasket set for the combination you're building. Early small port 3100/3400 manifold gaskets won't work with 2000+ manifolds. Most gaskets for fwd motors will work for your hybrid but waterpump & oil pan gaskets won't. You'll also need to use gen 2 3.1 valveguide gaskets with LS1, LS9 or comp beehive springs. And fwd exhaust gaskets suck with headers, thick paper or better yet semi-graphite/metal composite gaskets work best. Make sure you torque the lower manifold in proper sequence or it WILL leak. I can't tell you how many 3x00 motors I've seen leaking because some jerkoff just cranked it down with their air ratchet and called it good. PM me for torque specs & diagrams.
There was no "early small port 3400".
11-17-2009, 08:20 AM
#10
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Re: Hybrid Build guide/beefing up your v6
Too many words.. sometimes things are best expressed in a simple chart..
Gen 1: Iron heads
RWD 2.8
RWD 3.1
FWD 2.8
RWD/Transverse 2.8 (Fiero)
RWD 3.4
Gen 2: Aluminum heads (1987-1994)
FWD 2.8
FWD 3.1
FWD 3.1 Turbo
FWD 3.4 DOHC
Gen 3: Aluminum heads (1993-2006ish)
FWD 3100 (small port)93-99
FWD 3100 (Large port)2000+
FWD 3400 (all large port)
FWD 3500 (awesome)
Gen 4: Aluminum heads/VVT/VIR/DOD/DOHC
FWD 3900
FWD 3500 (Short stroke 3900)
AWD/RWD 3.6
RWD? 2.8 (caddy CTS)
Probably others in the gen4 platform as well.
http://60degreev6.com/content/60%C2%BAV6_Family_Tree
Gen 1: Iron heads
RWD 2.8
RWD 3.1
FWD 2.8
RWD/Transverse 2.8 (Fiero)
RWD 3.4
Gen 2: Aluminum heads (1987-1994)
FWD 2.8
FWD 3.1
FWD 3.1 Turbo
FWD 3.4 DOHC
Gen 3: Aluminum heads (1993-2006ish)
FWD 3100 (small port)93-99
FWD 3100 (Large port)2000+
FWD 3400 (all large port)
FWD 3500 (awesome)
Gen 4: Aluminum heads/VVT/VIR/DOD/DOHC
FWD 3900
FWD 3500 (Short stroke 3900)
AWD/RWD 3.6
RWD? 2.8 (caddy CTS)
Probably others in the gen4 platform as well.
http://60degreev6.com/content/60%C2%BAV6_Family_Tree
11-17-2009, 08:32 PM
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Re: Hybrid Build guide/beefing up your v6
*sigh* LOL.
Show me where I said 10 psi was anything but the same measurement anywhere. What I said was a supercharged apps tends to develop less pressure than a turbo does. You don't hear of superchargers pushing upwards of 30psi because the things friggin huge in the case of roots blowers compared to the turbocharger housing. Volume over speed. Centrifugal is different, more or less just a turbo attached to a gearbox & belt. Speed over volume.
Cool. Back in the '60's the big 3 were producing cars with ridiculous sounding c/r's that ran just fine, the trick was a cam with a late intake closing point. With a lopey enough cam you can get away with some pretty crazy sounding numbers like I have said in the past. Alum heads allow you to push things even more. My 2 cents is that anything above 9.5 dynamic is too much for pump gas. Down the road carbon deposits will form even under good care.
He'll get by fine without custom pushrods. I don't think it's really a neccecity yet but that's up to him. You know the old addage- build it cheap build it twice.
Firstfirebird knows of a couple people running rollers in gen 1 blocks without issues. I still don't understand why this is seen as an issue, there's plenty of 2 galley motors with rollers running around without issue. As far as the oil drainback goes I'll stick to what I've been saying which is that there's potential for an issue here. IDK if it's really an issue or not at this low a power level & rpm and chances are it's not but it's something I'm fixing on my motor.
Why not just take the 2nd valve off the thermostat or use a 2.8 thermostat?
So much confusion, 10 PSIG from a supercharger is the same as 10 PSIG from a turbo. Both have the potential to make lots or little intake pressure. The main difference is that (centrifigal) superchargers will generally have a more linear boost curve in relation to engine RPM than turbochargers, because they are connected mechanicaly to the engine to control impeller speed. Turbos don't have the direct mechanical link and can be made to spool up more sooner, but then controlled to a limited impeller (and exducer) speed to keep from over reving the impeller.
I can assure you, that flat tappet cams survive very well when using the aluminium heads. I had '95 3100 heads on my gen1 2.8 block for over 20000 Kms, and when I pulled the cam out it looked still new.
Also the genII engines are all flat tappet and have the exact same drain back as the genIII heads.
People making mountians is all this is.
I still would not run a roller cam in a genI block.
Also the genII engines are all flat tappet and have the exact same drain back as the genIII heads.
People making mountians is all this is.
I still would not run a roller cam in a genI block.
I would actually suggest "T'ing" off the heater core line that connects to the water pump. This will allow some coolant to get to the underside of the thermostat, like it is on OEM genIII applications. In the OEM application there is a "coolant tree" that attaches to the output of the water pump, that splits the flow between the heater core and this connection at the intake.
Last edited by bl85c; 11-17-2009 at 08:59 PM.
11-17-2009, 09:34 PM
#12
Re: Hybrid Build guide/beefing up your v6
*sigh* LOL.
Show me where I said 10 psi was anything but the same measurement anywhere. What I said was a supercharged apps tends to develop less pressure than a turbo does. You don't hear of superchargers pushing upwards of 30psi because the things friggin huge in the case of roots blowers compared to the turbocharger housing. Volume over speed. Centrifugal is different, more or less just a turbo attached to a gearbox & belt. Speed over volume.
Show me where I said 10 psi was anything but the same measurement anywhere. What I said was a supercharged apps tends to develop less pressure than a turbo does. You don't hear of superchargers pushing upwards of 30psi because the things friggin huge in the case of roots blowers compared to the turbocharger housing. Volume over speed. Centrifugal is different, more or less just a turbo attached to a gearbox & belt. Speed over volume.
You should get your head out from under a rock and look at what people are doing with both turbo and superchargers, I know of plenty of superchargers producing mid to high double digit intake pressures, so this idea that "Superchargers can't produce 30 PSIG" is just bunk. Besides, how many people are really going to run 30 PSIG on a 660? Not very many most likely, I'm not even planning on that much, and I'm planning quite a bit of power from both my 3400 going in my Jimmy, and my 3500 going in my Datsun.
While I prefer turbochargers over superchargers, I do so for actual measurable reasons, and many years of research, not some conjecture about "superchargers not producing as much pressure:. :facepalm:
Cool. Back in the '60's the big 3 were producing cars with ridiculous sounding c/r's that ran just fine, the trick was a cam with a late intake closing point. With a lopey enough cam you can get away with some pretty crazy sounding numbers like I have said in the past. Alum heads allow you to push things even more. My 2 cents is that anything above 9.5 dynamic is too much for pump gas. Down the road carbon deposits will form even under good care.
He'll get by fine without custom pushrods. I don't think it's really a neccecity yet but that's up to him. You know the old addage- build it cheap build it twice.
I've built a few hybrids myself, and can assure you that custom length pushrods are needed.
Firstfirebird knows of a couple people running rollers in gen 1 blocks without issues. I still don't understand why this is seen as an issue, there's plenty of 2 galley motors with rollers running around without issue. As far as the oil drainback goes I'll stick to what I've been saying which is that there's potential for an issue here. IDK if it's really an issue or not at this low a power level & rpm and chances are it's not but it's something I'm fixing on my motor.
The oil drian back is fine, you're making mountains out of ant hills here. The millions of genII engines out there prove it's nothing to worry about.
You're also under the mistaken impression that oil trickles back through this area, when it usually floods that area with oil.
Why not just take the 2nd valve off the thermostat or use a 2.8 thermostat?
11-18-2009, 04:26 PM
#13
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Thread Starter
Re: Hybrid Build guide/beefing up your v6
Ok guys here's the deal, I have figured out pretty much everything I have to get parts wise, and everything I have to do for the hybrid build, but there's one thing that I keep getting stumped on. And if I am, anybody reading this to read up on how its done will also need to know....
How to do the DIS conversion, the distributor hole gets covered by the lower intake manifold and needs an oil pump drive gear put in there if memory serves, that part is easy, but does anybody have good information with the little details, on how to setup a crank sensor which is needed to run EFI DIS?? If any of you have a working solution to this I would greatly appreciation the info on how to do it, and what parts are needed for it...
How to do the DIS conversion, the distributor hole gets covered by the lower intake manifold and needs an oil pump drive gear put in there if memory serves, that part is easy, but does anybody have good information with the little details, on how to setup a crank sensor which is needed to run EFI DIS?? If any of you have a working solution to this I would greatly appreciation the info on how to do it, and what parts are needed for it...
11-18-2009, 09:52 PM
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Re: Hybrid Build guide/beefing up your v6
Here's a couple diagrams to help you with wiring. I'll dig up a thread that should be a good recource for you when you piece this thing together. There generally aren't detailed guides for this sort of thing because it's a diy project. There's kind of an unspoken feeling of 'if you can't figure it out on your own, you probably shouldn't'. That needs to change.
You need to stop misconstruing what I'm saying. You don't typically see high pressure roots setups outside of serious competition stuff. Centrifugal, sure, but again that's a different design. Where do you get the idea that I'm saying a supercharger can't produce as much pressure? What I said was 'You won't develop as much pressure with a supercharger as you would with a turbo...' with a fageol-style setup in mind. Nothing invalid about that. So shoot me Sixshooter.
Awesome, I'm happy for your friend but that's my oppinion. You don't have to agree with it and I don't have to care. I'm certain I'm not alone in thinking that 12:1 c/r sounds a tad sketchy in a dd. Out of curiosity do you know his cam specs?
That's what was meant by 'build it cheap buid it twice'. I didn't stick a gun through the computer and force anyone to use the stock stuff, again I offered my ideas and if someone disagrees take it for what you will. How many sbc's do you think are out there with a completely stock valvetrain other than a cookie cutter camshaft?
I'm the one that did the measurements. I wouldn't say .54" lift is severely limited, but not desireable either. I don't plan on using a fwd block, nor do many of the 2.8 owners that want to do this. The way I see it I can help out people that want to retrofit this stuff.
MGB owners do it the way I suggested without issues. Explain what they and I are missing.
Listen, you and I both have a good deal of knowledge to contribute and differing experiences. We're wasting alot of time picking each other's posts apart which really is a waste of energy, and from what I've seen you do it quite a bit. I want to be cordial so this thread doesn't devolve into a pissing match so let's just drop it.
What do yo mean by "produces less pressure" then? If an engine has 10 PSIG or 30 PSIG, or 100 PSIG going into it, beit from a turbo or a supercharger, it's the same.....
You should get your head out from under a rock and look at what people are doing with both turbo and superchargers, I know of plenty of superchargers producing mid to high double digit intake pressures, so this idea that "Superchargers can't produce 30 PSIG" is just bunk. Besides, how many people are really going to run 30 PSIG on a 660? Not very many most likely, I'm not even planning on that much, and I'm planning quite a bit of power from both my 3400 going in my Jimmy, and my 3500 going in my Datsun.
While I prefer turbochargers over superchargers, I do so for actual measurable reasons, and many years of research, not some conjecture about "superchargers not producing as much pressure:. :facepalm:
You should get your head out from under a rock and look at what people are doing with both turbo and superchargers, I know of plenty of superchargers producing mid to high double digit intake pressures, so this idea that "Superchargers can't produce 30 PSIG" is just bunk. Besides, how many people are really going to run 30 PSIG on a 660? Not very many most likely, I'm not even planning on that much, and I'm planning quite a bit of power from both my 3400 going in my Jimmy, and my 3500 going in my Datsun.
While I prefer turbochargers over superchargers, I do so for actual measurable reasons, and many years of research, not some conjecture about "superchargers not producing as much pressure:. :facepalm:
Your 2 cents doesn't seem to be worth half a cent, when it's nothing but opinion or conjecture, and people are doing what you say is a bad idea, with great success. BTW, the friend of mine with the "too high compression" 3400 uses it as a daily driver and at one time was going to car shows all over South Western Ontario and North Eastern United states, last I heard he had over 50,000 Kms on the engine, with no issues. The tune isn't even optimized, it's better than it was thanks to about 4 hours of tuning time with me in the passenger seat, but I know I can get quite a bit more from it.
Really? Why not do it right the first time, and build it once? People have been building hybrids for the last decade in the FWD platforms and it's been PROVEN that custom length pushrods really are needed to get reliable operation and the best performance from the engine. Do some research on valve train geometry before you try and tell me I'm wrong, it is quite important.
I've built a few hybrids myself, and can assure you that custom length pushrods are needed.
I've built a few hybrids myself, and can assure you that custom length pushrods are needed.
That's fine, I've talked with him about it too, and it's not an ideal set-up because you are severely lift limited due to the design of the roller lifters, but you won't listen to me anyway.
The oil drian back is fine, you're making mountains out of ant hills here. The millions of genII engines out there prove it's nothing to worry about.
You're also under the mistaken impression that oil trickles back through this area, when it usually floods that area with oil.
The oil drian back is fine, you're making mountains out of ant hills here. The millions of genII engines out there prove it's nothing to worry about.
You're also under the mistaken impression that oil trickles back through this area, when it usually floods that area with oil.
Listen, you and I both have a good deal of knowledge to contribute and differing experiences. We're wasting alot of time picking each other's posts apart which really is a waste of energy, and from what I've seen you do it quite a bit. I want to be cordial so this thread doesn't devolve into a pissing match so let's just drop it.
Last edited by bl85c; 11-19-2009 at 09:14 AM.
01-06-2010, 05:27 PM
#15
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Re: Hybrid Build guide/beefing up your v6
So I've finally conquered that sob that is the DIS issue......well not conquered so much as dug up a reply to a post back when I hardly knew anything about engines, and now I can fully understand it and have progressed from "lolwut" to "oh, thats easy"....
To convert to DIS a 3.4l (RWD) timing cover, and balancer will be needed, also the reluctor wheel on the balancer needs modified (I still need to find the details on that bit). But at least now we know what parts to get for that.
A bit of an update on my project, I have the engine torn down to the heads, with one head 2 bolts shy of being pulled (that one bolt is more stubborn than my mother). And the other head just needs the exhaust manifold detached and the head bolts of course.
Parts wise I have acquired 3400 heads for the swap since I last posted, and have ordered head gaskets from WOT tech.
Also, I intend to repost this thread when my buildup is complete so that I can provide thorough information, it is my goal to make ALL the information readily available to those wanting to build a hybrid, IMO there needs to be a step by step guide.....right now there is none, and If I have to pioneer it I shall!
To convert to DIS a 3.4l (RWD) timing cover, and balancer will be needed, also the reluctor wheel on the balancer needs modified (I still need to find the details on that bit). But at least now we know what parts to get for that.
A bit of an update on my project, I have the engine torn down to the heads, with one head 2 bolts shy of being pulled (that one bolt is more stubborn than my mother). And the other head just needs the exhaust manifold detached and the head bolts of course.
Parts wise I have acquired 3400 heads for the swap since I last posted, and have ordered head gaskets from WOT tech.
Also, I intend to repost this thread when my buildup is complete so that I can provide thorough information, it is my goal to make ALL the information readily available to those wanting to build a hybrid, IMO there needs to be a step by step guide.....right now there is none, and If I have to pioneer it I shall!
01-06-2010, 07:43 PM
#17
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Re: Hybrid Build guide/beefing up your v6
Well, stock 2.8 puts out 135 hp and 165 ft/lb, Idk how much the 3.1 does, but After my rebuild I'm hoping for 200-235 hp and 250 ft/lb torque. But I'm also making my intake into a ram air with K&N filters, and doing a complete exhaust with headers, and probably a crank scraper and windage tray.
01-06-2010, 08:26 PM
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Re: Hybrid Build guide/beefing up your v6
So I've finally conquered that sob that is the DIS issue......well not conquered so much as dug up a reply to a post back when I hardly knew anything about engines, and now I can fully understand it and have progressed from "lolwut" to "oh, thats easy"....
To convert to DIS a 3.4l (RWD) timing cover, and balancer will be needed, also the reluctor wheel on the balancer needs modified (I still need to find the details on that bit). But at least now we know what parts to get for that.
A bit of an update on my project, I have the engine torn down to the heads, with one head 2 bolts shy of being pulled (that one bolt is more stubborn than my mother). And the other head just needs the exhaust manifold detached and the head bolts of course.
Parts wise I have acquired 3400 heads for the swap since I last posted, and have ordered head gaskets from WOT tech.
Also, I intend to repost this thread when my buildup is complete so that I can provide thorough information, it is my goal to make ALL the information readily available to those wanting to build a hybrid, IMO there needs to be a step by step guide.....right now there is none, and If I have to pioneer it I shall!
To convert to DIS a 3.4l (RWD) timing cover, and balancer will be needed, also the reluctor wheel on the balancer needs modified (I still need to find the details on that bit). But at least now we know what parts to get for that.
A bit of an update on my project, I have the engine torn down to the heads, with one head 2 bolts shy of being pulled (that one bolt is more stubborn than my mother). And the other head just needs the exhaust manifold detached and the head bolts of course.
Parts wise I have acquired 3400 heads for the swap since I last posted, and have ordered head gaskets from WOT tech.
Also, I intend to repost this thread when my buildup is complete so that I can provide thorough information, it is my goal to make ALL the information readily available to those wanting to build a hybrid, IMO there needs to be a step by step guide.....right now there is none, and If I have to pioneer it I shall!
01-06-2010, 10:23 PM
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Re: Hybrid Build guide/beefing up your v6
He's doing the swap on a 2.8. He doesn't have provisions for a crank sensor.
I haven't actually tried modifying the balancer so I don't know if it will work or not. I came up with the idea as an alternative to aftermarket stuff using oem parts to make the hybrid swap easier for people that don't want to swap out long blocks or pay $$$$$ for aftermarket stuff. You need to transfer the position of the notches on the crank to the balancer by welding in some of the spaces.
I haven't actually tried modifying the balancer so I don't know if it will work or not. I came up with the idea as an alternative to aftermarket stuff using oem parts to make the hybrid swap easier for people that don't want to swap out long blocks or pay $$$$$ for aftermarket stuff. You need to transfer the position of the notches on the crank to the balancer by welding in some of the spaces.
Last edited by bl85c; 01-06-2010 at 10:29 PM.
01-07-2010, 06:35 AM
#20
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Re: Hybrid Build guide/beefing up your v6
Yeah, pretty much, I still need to find the specs on a crank with DIS though, or else find an actual crank, but if nothing else, the timing cover and reluctor wheel give you a good basic setup to work with, could even just take the reluctor wheel to someone have them make one just like it but with the correct notchings, which is probably what I'll do, and if there is any interest in it I might even start selling a kit or something...
Also on a slightly unrelated note, Does anyone know what ECM I would have in my car? It's an 85 2.8. I'm guessing its the kind PROMs need to be burned for, and not the kind you plug in a laptop too and reprogram? Cause one of the other things I'm looking at right now is upgrading to a more tuning friendly computer if so, like OBD II or something, any thoughts suggestions on this? Which would also allow me to use an electronic EGR, would also be programmed for SFI I think.....
Also on a slightly unrelated note, Does anyone know what ECM I would have in my car? It's an 85 2.8. I'm guessing its the kind PROMs need to be burned for, and not the kind you plug in a laptop too and reprogram? Cause one of the other things I'm looking at right now is upgrading to a more tuning friendly computer if so, like OBD II or something, any thoughts suggestions on this? Which would also allow me to use an electronic EGR, would also be programmed for SFI I think.....
01-07-2010, 07:45 AM
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Re: Hybrid Build guide/beefing up your v6
aah, i mis-read the post. I'll blame the beer. 
I'd keep it OBD1, use a '7730 ecm with an eprom emulator. You'll be able to tune faster than the OBD2 guys do.
I'd keep it OBD1, use a '7730 ecm with an eprom emulator. You'll be able to tune faster than the OBD2 guys do.
01-07-2010, 08:22 AM
#22
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Re: Hybrid Build guide/beefing up your v6
Engine computers is something I still need to learn about...So I'm a tad confused what's OBD1 if not the ecm?? And where Can I find a 7730 ecm and eprom emulator??
01-07-2010, 08:33 PM
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Re: Hybrid Build guide/beefing up your v6
OBDI is the system type... Used from 79-80 (depending on the car) to 1993-94 (depending on the car), these were switched in most vehicles to an abomination known as OBD 1.5 that used an OBDII-style DLC between 94 and 95. 96 is when the government mandated OBDII.
01-07-2010, 09:00 PM
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Re: Hybrid Build guide/beefing up your v6
You have either an '870 or '302 depending on what part of the year it was made. Either are useless. Here.
Last edited by bl85c; 01-07-2010 at 09:03 PM.
01-07-2010, 09:03 PM
#25
Re: Hybrid Build guide/beefing up your v6
Daily driver here in Florida, 3500 heads 3.4 DOHC pistons (.030 over) running on pump gas, and the intake event doesn't happen all that late That's somewhere near the 13's for CR depending on what head gasket he used (DOHC are zero deck IIRC).
That's somewhere near the 13's for CR depending on what head gasket he used (DOHC are zero deck IIRC).
07-14-2016, 11:25 AM
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Car: '73 MGB
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Re: Hybrid Build guide/beefing up your v6
Hi - I just ran across your page with the 2.8 V6 update - do you still have the car?
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